Exilian
Off-topic and Chatter: The Jolly Boar Inn => Fandom Discussion - The Secret Garden => General Chatter - The Boozer => Tolkien & LOTR => Topic started by: Jubal on April 01, 2015, 12:28:37 AM
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Welcome to the hustings round!
Five parties successfully filed their nomination papers, and now their candidates will enter into a primary debate to test their support levels for the great election that lies ahead!
THE RULES
- There will be a poll at the top of this thread which will form a basic straw poll of the candidates.
- You may vote for two candidates who you think most ought to go through to the main election.
- You CAN change your vote at any point within the next week.
- Candidates are permitted to vote in this straw poll (they won't be able to for the main election).
- You can (and should, as that's the point) ask initial questions of the candidates. Candidates, you can also ask questions of one another and argue to your hearts' content! This round, perhaps go for relatively basic and nonspecific questions: in the main campaign you'll want to be honing in much more on what your constituencies need, this round is mostly to pull out people's basic platforms.
- Ballot access is granted as follows: 15%+ gives full ballot access, 5-15% gives partial access (so the party may stand in one region or five selected constituencies), less than that and they're out of the race.
THE CONTESTANTS
Green Arda Party (Eowyn)
Minor Ancillary Character Hagiography Organisation (MACHO) Party (Elladan/Elrohir)
Middle Earth Alliance for Democracy (MEAD) (Alatar & Pallando)
SSS - Shiny Shirt Society (Shagrat)
White Tree Alliance (Imrahil of Dol Amroth)
Without further ado: let the HUSTINGS BEGIN!
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As a PS: those of us who are Exilian staff can see the poll results, I can't turn that off. I will endeavour to come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who reveals the results prematurely. Please respect the electoral process!
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So, I shall endeavour to kick this off by perhaps expanding on what MACHO will be fighting for:
Given the continual warfare for the last 6500-odd years in Middle-earth under the domination of the monarchical elites, MACHO believe that the hitherto-neglected fringe groups should be given the opportunity to finally form a government and govern in the interest of the common man/orc/Ent/elf/dwarf. As such, we propose to establish an overarching bicameral Middle-earth Parliament, with a lower chamber elected by proportional representation (most likely through STV) and an upper chamber where each race would be equally represented, with half the members directly elected by voters and half appointed by the President, who would fulfil a largely-ceremonial role, with most executive power belonging to the Prime Minister, chosen by the lower chamber. Terms for all members and the President and PM would be 5 years. Powers will be devolved to the regions, as we think they'll be able to provide better governance than a distant elite.
MACHO generally favour a Scandinavian-style social democracy, with a strong and progressive tax regime and an effective redistributive state to ensure those most able to pay do, and that neglected minorities receive some redress for their historical oppression. We would set up a free-at-the-point-of-use universal health service and institute a strong and fair package of benefits.
As a corollary to this and being led by a dynamic Elvish duo, MACHO are also strongly-concerned with the environment. We would re-forest the Brown Lands to create a pan-Middle-earth national remembrance forest to provide a leisure facility open to all and commemorate the dead of all races from the millennia of conflict. Significant environmental improvements would also be completed in Mordor. There would be a presumption against uncontrolled large-scale industrial development, but regions could choose to develop industries if they wished, and there would be central grants to ensure development fitted in with local styles and to minimise its environmental impacts.
We would also seek to reach out to our neighbours, such as Harad and Khand, to initiate peaceful relations and help develop long-distance trade, providing a welcome boost to hitherto-marginalised border populations around the edge of the map.
I think I'll stop at this point, before it gets too long, as I think that's the main policy bases covered. Don't want to get into excessive detail at this stage....
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Right, MEAD opening statement.
We believe that in politics, across Middle-Earth, what people are crying out for is individual freedom and a chance to get the help they need to get their lives prosperous again. It's simply not right that for millennia, most ordinary gentlehobbits, Dwarf miners, Dorwinian winemakers, and many other folks across Middle-Earth have been quaking in fear of the social and economic powers of both the state and large landowners. We pledge to get the state out of your private affairs, to end the needless imposition of social taboos, and to create a fair government system that everyone can take part in.
To that end, a MEAD government would ensure that small producers remain at the heart of our economy, by pledging to not impose sales taxes on direct producers under a certain size, and to end the levying of tolls on the roads that have held back trade (especially into Eriador). We will implement equal marriage legislation, so that any pair of consenting sentient adults, regardless of species or gender, can tie the knot. We will support women in their struggle for equality in Middle-Earth; no more should they be relegated to swooning over heroes, and as such we will legislate to stop anyone discriminating by gender and race either in hiring or service.
Of course, we accept the need for some government activity - but we feel it should be at arm's length where possible and not directly controlled by an overbearing central authority. Our programmes will primarily be funded by wealth taxation on large estates and second homes, by local authorities directly generating revenue via some profitable enterprises, and by our innovative microfinance programmes, where we will both regenerate deprived areas and give the state a more solid tax base via low-interest loans to help kick-start the economy there. We want to provide government support to build community based safety-nets for the worst off, and to help fund local areas in starting networks of community-built healthcare services that are receptive to local need. Most of all, though, we pledge to be the party of education; as Wizards, our leader and deputy leader understand the importance of wisdom, and as such we will address Middle-Earth's terrible lack of basic schools, effective library facilities, and higher education centres.
A MEAD vote will be a vote to keep the government off people's backs and get it supporting them in what they want to do; and giving people and communities the skills, support, and freedom they need to get on in life!
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Right, an opening from the WTA. Given the necessarily polemic nature of our brief initial statement, I shall here attempt rather to explain the reasoning behind our beliefs on an intellectual level wherever possible rather than simply stating them. Our initial statement was intended to, in a few paragraphs, gain the votes of those we thought were most likely to come to us, a mostly Gondorian loyalist population, as well as those at the right disenchanted by the other parties present, drawing them to our centrist position relative to the other left-wing parties. That statement necessarily gave a one-sided view of our policies. Here, in this longer and more considered piece, I am utterly open. I take the opportunity to appeal not to the anger of the disgruntled, but to the intelligence of the informed reader, in the hope that my belief in the fundamental goodness of all races is not misplaced.
Core beliefs
The Alliance's core item on our manifesto is, of course, in the hereditary monarchichal system's suitability for continuing, at least for now, as the primary system of government for Middle-Earth, at least on a large scale. From a wider viewpoint, our goal is to create a morally sound, fair and prosperous society for the citizens of Middle-Earth, and of this our support for monarchy is simply one aspect.
We are not moral relativists. The WTA, as far as meta-ethics goes, believes in the existence of objective morality, that there is a single correct moral analysis of every scenario, although it is often difficult for we people to see that moral truth. We hold that the primary responsibility of a government is to make the morally right decisions. While many alternative ideas, such as democracy, show great promise, we are unwilling to trust our entire society to utterly untested political systems. We advise caution. We advise that when dealing with something as important as the society in which we live, we should move tentatively, with small-scale trials and with significant research and inquiry, exploring all the options. This is especially true when, as now, the status quo is not entirely awful. There may be a need for swift action, and this would be the case under, say an oppressive dictatorship. But it is not the case now. The tragically brief reign of King Elessar showed us prosperity, fairness and justice to an extent unseen for a millenium, and we believe that it is by building on his work that we can make the most effective progress with the least risk of disaster. Middle-Earth has just begun its recovery from the devastation of the War, and to throw ourselves decisively into immediate drastic action would be gravely irresponsible at such a time.
In short, don't be hasty.
On Democracy and Monarchy (with a bit more Core Beliefs)
We acknowledge the theoretical advantages of a democracy - it fulfils the criterion that the responsibility of government is to make the morally correct decisions, if we assume that the morals of the people are likely to be a good approximation to true morality, and that this will result in a democracy making the correct decisions. Believing as we do in the fundamental redeemability of all peoples of Arda, at least the first assumption seems probable.
However, democracy is an almost entirely untested system. While its use in the Shire has been effective, we do not belive that there is anywhere near sufficient evidence of its efficacy and stability to allow us to endorse its introduction in Middle-Earth at all. Its hasty adoption would go entirely against our doctrine of caution as outlined above.
The WTA would like to investigate democracy, and suggests that we begin a comprehensive program of research, headed by our most distinguished loremasters. We would like to move several local authorities to a representative democratic system, encouraging on a small scale the transfer, in these few test regions, of powers from the monarchy to elected councils. Evaluating the results of democracy across various cultures will enable us to make an informed decision as to whether it could work in Middle-Earth as a whole. We would also welcome suggestions of other possible systems of government, to undergo similar trials.
Giving the people the power to bloodlessly oust poor leaders is a phenomenal advantage of democracy. Its potential for long-term stability, we admit, looks like it could be superior to that of hereditary monarchy. We acknowledge history's example of the countless noble dynasties that fell to desire, greed, pride, and petty squabbling. However, consider history's example of the timescales over which this occurs. Númenor's ruling Kings were exemplary for a thousand years before greed began to sow its seeds. The line of Anárion in Gondor suffered only gradual decline for a similar period. Even among the shorter-lived races, it is clear that it takes at least a few generations for evil to sow its seeds in a noble line of kings and queens. But consider the timescales over which we could cautiously experiment with forms of government, with policies. A comprehensive evaluation of democracy (or something else) could easily be carried out within a century - far within the time we are allowed before the risk of monarchy wavering looms.
In short, in this as in all other matters, we do not advocate mindless conservatism, but rather caution, caution when dealing with the society that is dear to us. To achieve greatness enduring without falling into darkness, we must be open-minded whilst remaining tentative, rational while remaining compassionate. Only then may we progress without losing what is dearest to us.
On more specific policies
Here we step down a level. Here we stop talking about how decisions should be made and start talking about deciding. Everything I say hereon is the WTA's opinion on what we currently think is a good idea to implement in Society. In line with our core beliefs, every recommendation that we cite below should be taken as our current idea of what might be a good plan. Our party would consider every major step, probably conducting small-scale trials of all the alternative, taking advice from cross-social opinion polls, from both Houses of our proposed parliament, from the King's councillors. Getting to the point, our non-core policies are mutable. If they don't seem a good idea, we'll change them. If there's a lot of criticism, we'll take that into consideration, always erring on the side of caution. With that little caveat out of the way, here we go:
The WTA believes in a society where no citizen is in poverty, where everyone has a chance to succeed, where everyone is guaranteed a minimum standard of life, where one's start in life, one's race, one's beliefs, have no effect on what one may achieve; but also a society where talent, intelligence, and hard work are rewarded, where people may make of themselves what they will. A society where sanctions for rulebreaking are given not to personally punish or to chastise, not to morally condemn, but rather to to rehabilitate and to protect society from personal actions that are dangerous to it. A society that is unafraid to use its resources while managing them sustainably and with due consideration. A society where people may back to their ancestors with pride, benefitting from their knowledge and sacrifice without meaninglessly repeating their actions. A society where knowledge informs action. A society that for guidance looks neither upwards nor backwards, but outwards. A society where moderation is our adviser without being our captor.
The more specific policies themselves
Economy, commerce, welfare, and public services
The markets are neither a blessing nor a curse. They are forces and effects. Any view that places "the markets" anywhere on a good-evil axis is undoubtedly making a rushed and uninformed decision. The WTA sees the remarkable power of money to enable an ensemble of people acting selfishly to benefit the prosperity of all. We also see the power of money to grossly neglect some while propelling others. The markets are phenomenally efficient as a tool for assigning resources where they are required: they co-ordinate needs and wants with supplies and resources with far more efficact than could any co-ordinator. Yet their merciless cycles can fling many into the depths of poverty.
The WTA therefore seeks to regulate what must be regulated for the good of the people and for society as a whole, while leaving free what can be left free, and removing restrictions where restrictions are unnecessary. Aspects of this include creating an unconditional monteary allowance for all citizens, large enough to allow an acceptable, while not luxurious, life. We propose universal healthcare free at the point of use, and universal free education to the end of childhood for all, and further for the brightest. The simplicity of these policies will reduce bureaucratic cost compared to the complexity of means-testing &c. A moderate armed force will be maintained as a cautious measure due to the youth of this period of peace, and police and firefighting services will be created where possible. Through these policies, everyone will have access to clean water, to a warm room to live in, to the food they need, to education, to healthcare and to a safe society.
We will not impose any kind of minimum wage, as the personal allowance means that the lowest wage is high enough. However, the allowance's existance will increase wages by forcing employers to pay enough that employees' marginal gain in living standards in getting a job is worth the extra effort, as a job will no longer be a requirement of survival. The need for workers should drive the labour cost high enough to ensure that a large majority choose to work.
Public services will be funded by progressive income taxation. The taxation will be present from zero income, again because of the personal allowance, but will be low enough at low incomes to ensure people have good incentive to work. It will be higher at high incomes to be fair, but remain low enough to encourage increased wealth. The decision on whether the provision of public services is better achieved by awarding contracts to the private sector or by nationalised efforts will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. As always, we intend to in the name of efficiency leave to the free market what we can, while restricting what could be damaging. At the moment, we intend to award contracts for building and maintaining infrastructure to the private sector while maintaining public ownership of the infrastructure itself. We will adopt a mixed approach to healthcare, but we will run education, policing and the military on a nationalised basis.
We will attempt to remove barriers to free trade and improve infrastructure to allow strong commerce to develop in Middle-Earth. We will be removing Middle-Earth from the gold standard and establishing a central bank to control the supply of money, allowing for a more stable economy. We will use the current period of prosperity in the wake of the War's ending to save money in a central wealth fund, to be used to ride out economic slumps in the future without accruing large national debts.
Middle-Earth's economy badly needs modernising. While Mordor and Isengard embraced industry, the rest of the continent has remained a dominantly agricultural economy. Subsidies will be introduced for land reform and for innovation as well as for exploration far afield to open new markets to commerce. We will also invest significant resources in research into more efficient methods of manufacturing, mining, and farming.
Nobility
The WTA recommends the maintenance of the nobility as a historical institution, to be used to honour the most prominent and accomplished members of our society. The hereditary nature of existing noble titles will be maintained, although no special privileges of monetary inheritance will be permitted, meaning that only well-managed estates will survive. New noble titles, however, will be created for life only. The King will bestow such honours on the advice of his councillors, giving them to the great in our society, for great accomplishment within a profession, especially for those in academia, in law, in politics, and in the military. Also considered will be great work for charity, otherwise greatly serving the nation through political, or economic efforts or anything else.
Legislature and Judiciary
A bicameral central parliament will be established in Minas Tirith, our capital, where appointed nobility in the upper house and elected commoners in the lower house may legislate while advising the King on matters of State. The King will appoint ministers to his Cabinet, whom Parliament will have the power to dismiss with a large majority, as well as giving assent to legislation (and withholding it where necessary). A hierarchy of criminal and civil courts will be created, preserving where possible the heterogeneous systems currently in existence. The judiciary will exist in concert with central and local legislatures. While large-scale decisions must be centrally made to ensure fairness across our realms and to ensure the stability of our shared economy, power will be devolved to local government wherever possible. A written legal consititution will be eschewed in favour of a non-binding statement of purpose for society, in order to better prevent its misinterpretation, and to reduce the power of the judiciary to interfere with the legislature.
Equality
Matters of equality will be treated seriously. A combination of regulation and economic incentives will be used to ensure an egalitarian society for all. Examples of our policies in equalities include forcing all new commercial builds to allow sufficient doorway and ceiling heights to admit all races entry, from hobbits to Men and Elves, with an additional requirement to allow sufficient height for Ents and Trolls if the representatives of those races in local government request it. While the personal allowance will cover maternity pay, the State will (as well as requiring employers to grant maternity leave), grant an allowance to employers of mothers to offset the administrative costs of finding replacements. Equalities officers of all races will be recruited to act as inspectors at all levels of society, ensuring fair access to all insititutions regardless of race.
Environment
While our current civilisation has little environmental impact due to our sparse population, the environment has the potential to become a very serious issue. The need to limit barriers to industry and commerce must be balanced by the need to protect our environment and responsibly manage our resources, which, like equality, will be accomplished by an informed combination of regulation and economic incentives.
Culture
Local governments' budgets will include allowance for cultural spending, such as museums, arts funding, cultural centres, protection of minority languages etc.
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We encourage citizens to vote White Tree for a fair, prosperous, and above all, sensible society. Hopefully I haven't bored anyone with this somewhat-lengthier-than-intended manifesto. Don't be hasty, vote White Tree for moderation and good sense!.
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MACHO would like to ask two questions:
Directed at MEAD: Are you proposing to devolve all powers to the regions? What will be kept at the centre? Surely, a united foreign and fiscal policy should be maintained to avoid the raising of private armies and internecine trade wars?
Directed at the WTA: We would disagree with the WTA's fundamental assertion that monarchy has been historically good for Middle-earth. Fëanor, the first High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth, is perhaps the greatest criminal in recorded history, his rash actions being ultimately responsible for the deaths of countless Noldor, Teleri, Men, Orcs, Dwarves, Trolls and other races. Whilst Númenor may have had a thousand years of sensible monarchy, it had at least as long, if not longer, of evil kings who oppressed the peoples of Middle-earth and ultimately turned to worshipping the Darkness. Isildur, one of the founding fathers of Gondor and Arnor, single-handedly created the conditions for the ongoing warfare of the Third Age, culminating in the War of the Ring, by not destroying the Ring when he had a chance. We should know - our Dad (who, despite being able to, never claimed the kingship of the Noldor or any other group or region) was there and told him to do the right thing. An institution responsible for these actions does not deserve preservation or special treatment in our opinion.
MAke a CHOice. Choose MACHO.
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Clearly some things should be maintained at a federal level. We believe that broadly speaking federal powers should be limited as much as possible, however.
- We would keep a united foreign policy.
- Trade wars would be avoided via the fact that all of Middle-earth would effectively be a free trade zone.
- As to fiscal policy, our intention is that local democratically elected councils and bodies would have the majority of control over revenue raising and spending on local medical services, education, and infrastructure. Given we have no effective reserve banking and that money will need to exist primarily in physical form, we think that centralising all taxation would be an extremely inefficient and wasteful system that risks significant levels of corruption and dragon-sickness. Instead, we want to keep money circulating in local economies, ensuring that prosperity is maintained in those areas.
- A federal government will then ensure balance between the regions, by using some revenue powers to redistribute surplus wealth to areas of greater need, and by ensuring that certain minimum standards are upheld in devolved matters, such as requiring that effective education services must be provided free at the point of use. The federal government's strategic spending will focus on areas that are of importance to the whole system, such as placement of higher education centres or higher levels of investment to create new urban centres, rather than trying to micromanage local affairs.
- We do not intend to create regional behemoths to replace a federal one, either. We will encourage individual local communities to set up state-subsidised, non-profit local centres for medicine and education, with wider regional councils providing different levels of financial or material support depending on the needs of those communities. All such services will be prevented from having any kind of profit motive.
- We will maintain a small but well equipped federal armed force, with additional locally based militias, shirriff services, or police equipped and readied depending on the precise needs of those areas.
We of course agree that monarchy has done Middle-Earth little good, and counsel strongly against the centralising tendencies of our opponents. We want a decentralised economy and a decentralised society Only MEAD will put you and your community in charge; supporting you and providing compassionate additional aid where you need it, and letting you stand on your own feet where you do not.
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In response to the criticisms of monarchy:
The WTA agrees that there have been significant historical cases of monarchical imperfection causing great suffering. We might even be persuaded that monarchy might seem to result in an inevitable slow decline of civilisation. However, we maintain that the number of historical cases of sudden failure of monarchy are few compared to the evidence for its medium-term (a few centuries) stability. Indeed, Isildur, Feanor and others were sudden failures in noble lines, but consider the monarchies of Numenor, Gondor and Arnor, all characterised by slow, stable decline on this timescale. There is irrefutable evidence that monarchy can result in milennia-long stability for a civilisation, and although we admit that monarchy is certainly imperfect, the strength of the evidence of its quality as at least acceptable is far more than there exists for the essentially untested and radical propositions of our opponents. Progress must come, but must be taken with care from a stable platform, rather than in a manner characterised by mad jumps for safety off a failing structure. As the long-term hereditary ruler of a prosperous city-state and region, as well as adviser to the late King, our leader has great knowledge and experience of statesmanship and we believe that he and his descendants shall keep Middle-Earth heading in the right direction for at least a couple of centuries to come, until we are in a more informed position to decide our (very-)long-term system of governance.
To MEAD:
How do you intend for your proposals of locally-determined fiscal policy to function when there is such great inequality of resources between the regions? Gondor and the Dwarven kingdoms will control the great majority of the money supply, and so given your free-trade ideas (which we, of course, agree with) the economic fates of lesser regions will be essentially determined by the choices, good or bad, of the powerful ones. Additionally, given the large fertile swathes of Middle-Earth that have lain uninhabited this past Age due to their so far unsafe nature, will not this modern age of peace, prosperity and policing result in large-scale migration which your decentralised powers will be essentially unable to deal with? The WTA believes that the position of such greatly decentralised power cannot result in a stable state in the current non-equilibrium political and economic climate. The grossly inhomogeneous distribution in Middle-Earth of skills and resources and the shared currency are not compatible with multiple independent legislating bodies in a free trade environment, and is likely to lead to widening inequality and instability without central intervention.
To MACHO:
Our parties seem to agree on most issues outside the constitutional, however I must ask both you and MEAD how you believe that an entirely new elected democratic government is to succeed in the short term, when we live in a world where experience and knowledge in statesmanship, and where, at least for now, education in general, reside almost entirely with the nobility?
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In response to the WTA:
If all we can hope for with monarchy is centuries of slow and steady decline, should we not endeavour to try another system that might lead to long-term prosperity for all citizens of Middle-earth, instead of protecting the interests of a narrow elite whilst myriads die in pointless wars?
Whilst we agree that education has certainly been historically limited in Middle-earth, we do not think this means only the nobility are equipped to rule. We do not feel that politics requires an advanced level of formal academic achievement - members of the pan-Endor mercantile class have certainly demonstrated sufficient nous in maintaining viable businesses throughout centuries of conflict. We believe the exploits of Master Samwise, a commoner-par-excellence, demonstrate that not belonging to the nobility is no barrier to political achievement or statesmanlike abilities.
We would agree with the WTA's critique of MEAD's policies, however.
MACHO would forge a middle path between the extreme unstable decentralisation of MEAD and the reactionary nobility-led centralisation of the WTA. We feel both approaches could lead to land grabs by and, resource concentration within, local and trans-local elites. We would have a strong central government to ensure policies such as defence, health, education and tax were harmonised, and to ensure equal rights and treatment for all citizens, regardless of which region they lived in. Concomitant to this, we would not introduce unregulated markets forces immediately, as we feel this would enable exploitation by the educated elite at the expense of the previously-oppressed majority. We would take a phased approach over the next decade or so, with the ultimate end-point of a mixed economy, where vital areas involving public goods, such as health and education, remained state-controlled, but other sectors, such as industry or agriculture became largely market-driven.
At the same time, we would ensure local governments would have a degree of autonomy in allocating their funding and would be able to vary national policies within defined limits; for example, taxes could be varied within a few percentage points of the centrally-defined level.
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We absolutely reject the spurious allegation that our policies will favour elites. Indeed, it is only by our strong and progressive wealth taxation system that we will finally be able to end the hegemonic power of elites in Gondor and elsewhere, and give power back to the ordinary farmer, miner, herdsman or wine merchant. We absolutely seek a better trans-regional distribution of wealth and skills, and we do not believe that the right way to do this is to put all power in the hands of a hyper-centralised bureaucracy. We want a small, efficient central state that will push back firmly against excessive accumulations of wealth and power whilst itself not becoming that which it is there to prevent.
Whilst we advocate tarriff-free trade, we agree with MACHO that the markets are only a tool, good for some things but poor for others. That is why we advocate a local and community basis for so many things; we can thus ensure real local accountability to the people who services are being used by, and provide strong, public spirited public services. Under a MEAD government, larger business enterprises would be required to take some social responsibility too, having the local good as well as profitability amongst their core objectives. As to migration, it is clear that a centralised state would have little ability to really create any sort of effective controls on internal migration; the way to deal with it is to ensure that all areas are economically strong, and by our effective, radical wealth taxation system that is precisely what we would do.
What I believe should terrify the people of Middle-earth, in this debate, is the magnitude of power that the WTA, and to a lesser extent MACHO, are putting in the hands of the few. Whilst we agree with many of MACHO's core aims in terms of service provision, their attempt to centralise all taxation would see money sucked out of the provinces and into paying an expansive central bureaucracy; given Middle-earth's physical monetary system, this would be a grossly inefficient system. Payment would need to be made to a host of additional local and central officials simply to provide regular tax assessments and move money around to provide the same services that we want to put in place within, rather than from without, local economies. We can avoid this by focussing our federal taxation on the largest wealth owners and businesses, and keeping more local revenue raising in the areas it serves. People under the median income, and indeed somewhat above it, should not need to pay federal taxes in a system where in fact most of the wealth is concentrated at the top of society.
The WTA plan, however, is far more insidious. They seek to rebalance almost all wealth and tax from zero income via their basic income system - and they then seek to put those basic incomes in the hands of an unelected tyrant. How much fear will that instil into the hearts of the ordinary voter? The knowledge that their entire basic income exists only at the whim of a despot? The regular checks on whether they have earned any money at all from an army of tax collectors, with total reliance on handouts to keep them loyal. This is not the future I - or any of the rest of us - should want for Middle-earth, and I hope such a future will be solidly rejected by the electorate.
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Is there anyone who doesn't have socialism at the core?
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MACHO emphatically reject MEAD's allegations concerning our tax system. Whilst the central government would set overall tax policies, we did not claim they would be responsible for collecting them. As stated, regional governments would have the power to vary tax rates within certain limits and, as such, would be responsible for collecting them. We would therefore not need a massive centralised apparatus of tax officials and would avoid the consequent economic drain.
We also reject MEAD's implication that the people of Middle-earth would be unable to move away from a physical money system towards a more representative one that would facilitate tax gathering. We feel this is a gross disservice to the collective intellect of Middle-earth's inhabitants. MACHO would advocate the modernisation of the currency system with the eventual aim of setting up an effective banking sector, including a central bank, to assist trade.
MACHO would also like to point out they first proposed left-wing policies and cannot help it if other groups saw the self-evident sense in this and rushed to the same end of the spectrum. Vote MACHO for the authentic centre-left alternative, not the thinly-disguised libertarianism of MEAD or the insidious conservatism of the WTA.
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Is there anyone who doesn't have socialism at the core?
Of the three parties that are actively participating, no - but are you surprised, given Exilian's known political bias?
Looking at the other two parties, Green Arda looks pretty socialist too, though their manifesto sets out a series of very specific policies rather than setting out their principles. I'm less certain about the Shiny Shirt Society - I'm not sure what its political principles are, or indeed whether it has any beyond "what is shiny is best, especially if it belongs to you!". I guess that counts as fairly capitalist...
I would like to hear more from Green Arda and the SSS on the various issues raised in discussion so far, not least because if they don't participate at this stage they are likely to be eliminated from the candidate list.
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No not surprised, would have been cool to have a bit more variety.
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I don't think MEAD would be considered socialist by most standards, more liberal radicals. We reject the primacy in the centre in favour of giving everyone the chance to stand on their own feet and contribute productively to their communities.
What sort of currency system do MACHO therefore propose? We of MEAD consider it of crucial importance that people have trust in their money, and we're sure the voters will want to see a detailed plan for how the state would manage such a system. The greater taxation demanded by MACHO will, for all their denials, require more regular assessments and greater bureaucracy at multiple levels than our own plans, which are based on the factually obvious premise that assessing local needs is best done by town and city leadership rather than regional or federal officials. It seems to fall to us also to point out the entirely baseless idea that MACHO was first to propose the political points on which we agree; in the original party submission papers MEAD had already laid down their platform as in favour of regional development and small business, whereas MACHO made an entirely policy-free submission and jumped on the regionalism bandwagon only when this hustings started!
Out of character point to Rob: yeah, had I known, I would have worked something out a bit more different: I'd assumed from the initial platforms that WTA was going to be much much more centre-right, MACHO kind of centrist, and so I worked my platform out to be radical social-liberalism since the last one of these I did I argued on devil's advocate totally and wanted to actually be able to argue for my own politics for once... I've tweaked it a bit to be a bit more liberal radical/devolved so as to not tread on TP's stuff too much, but I guess I didn't want to totally jettison what I'd put together thus far. Sorry about that, I should've worked it out better. :/
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MACHO feel that leaving all tax assessment up to local officials would leave the system too open to corruption and co-option by local elites, hence the need for some degree of regional/central oversight. We also feel that, seeing as we started the hustings bandwagon, we can hardly be accused of jumping on it. We understood the opening papers were to be a very short précis of our central aim, which, as stated, was to improve representation for marginalised groups. We did not wish to overcomplicate things at such an early stage.
As regards our proposed currency system, as stated, we would initially maintain the existing physical currency system before moving to encourage the development of a banking sector and the consequent introduction of paper money and credit facilities to enhance trade. We would, as part of this, also aim to move the whole of Middle-earth to a single currency. We propose that this currency would be managed by a central bank and be based on some sort of physical standard, which would be decided in advance by a commission of experts. Not knowing the exact rarity of different resources in different parts of Middle-earth, it is too difficult to determine this at this stage. We feel this system would provide greater long-term stability and economic growth than the fragmented patchwork of local arrangements advocated by MEAD.
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On the contrary; local systems mean full and easy accountability as corrupt officials can easily be identified and democratically removed. We would of course make it a federal priority to ensure full support would be given to whistleblowers and that corruption of any sort could be dealt with efficiently and effectively. We think it is, however, plain that a system of non-local assessment would be far more open to corruption as assessors would have no stake in the wellbeing of the communities that they were assessing - and given the huge size of Middle-earth would be very difficult to effectively control centrally.
As to money, we are deeply concerned about the high potential for fraud if we move to a paper money system - whilst we accept that we may need to move away from currency with a full intrinsic value, we believe that great care is needed to maintain public trust in the economy and that no ways have been advanced to avoid paper money being grossly susceptible to mass counterfeiting in a way that would not be possible with coins.
OOC Again: TP, could you poke Hannah? I feel like were just waddling down a path of ever smaller minutiae at this stage. Also we badly need more voters still...
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OOC: Quite. I've relayed our concerns to her. Don't think I can help on the voters front - can't think of anyone I know who you haven't already advertised this to who would be interested. Also, I feel we're being more graceful than "waddling". At the very least, we're boldly striding :P
Back to the topic at hand:
We disagree with MEAD on this issue. We feel that tax assessors and collectors should be loyal to an independent central body, rather than reporting to local bodies where regulatory capture by local bigwigs would be greatly facilitated. This central body would then, of course, deal rapidly with any suggestions of impropriety, using the rapid reaction elite police force MACHO are proposing to set up. This would consist of Orc Warg riders, putting the valuable cultural skills of the Orcs to beneficial national use.
We would like to contend that coins are just as susceptible to forgery and abuse as paper money - it is far more difficult to clip a note, for example, and you only need a mould and some metal of vaguely the right colour and weight to start mass-producing your own forgeries.... For notes, you need sophisticated printing equipment, which we feel would be harder to acquire in Middle-earth.
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I'd like to divert the party representatives from matters fiscal to ecological. I'd be grateful if they could each tell me what they propose to do regarding that misunderstood and endangered species, the dragon.
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In response to MACHO's criticism of monarchy, the WTA firmly believes that monarchy is the best system of governance for Middle-Earth at this time. We acknowledge that "centuries of slow and steady decline" are both undesirable and the likely outcome of continual monarchy. Our reason for desiring a monarchy for Middle-Earth is that the generations of stability that a monarchy provide will be the ideal base for a more cautious investigation of the alternatives. We see MACHO's and MEAD's proposals of the immediate introduction of democracy as grossly irresponsible, ignoring the great risk of widespread catastrophic upheaval because of the untested hope of something better. A monarchy under Prince Imrahil will allow us to recover from the devastating War and rebuild our society and our economy without putting us at risk of further upheaval. Once we have recovered, we may start to cautiously investigate options for Middle-Earth's long-term future.
While we acknowledge that expertise certainly does exist outside the hands of the nobility in many areas, including commerce, the WTA maintains that overlooking the experience of nobility and royalty would be a tremendous waste of the resources at hand. Statesmanship is not the same as running a business, and while the accomplished merchants will be an important voice in our Parliament, we believe that the experience of ruling held by the existing ruling classes is of utmost importance for a stable transitionary period. Only in the Shire, the one democratic region currently in existence, and a region with very different requirements of a government to Middle-Earth as a whole, is there any knowledge of statesmanship among the commoners. Obviously this is a deplorable and deeply unfortunate and classist situation, however the way to fight inequality is not to knock down the fortunate, it is to raise up the unfortunate. By forsaking the nobility, MACHO and MEAD will harm Middle-Earth while benefitting no-one, unlike the WTA, who will help the underpriveliged while maintaining Middle-Earth's expertise.
Our ennoblement and honours system will move power in the nobility gradually, over many generations, away from the hereditary upper classes towards meritocratic experts, allowing us not to waste Middle-Earth's accumulated knowledge and wisdom.
In response to allegations that centralised power will result in corruption, I must disagree. As we have stated above, there is strong historical evidence that over the scale of a few centuries, monarchy is stable. In other words, hereditary monarchs remain righteous for many generations. Since we can, in the medium term, be sure of the moral integrity of our King and his advisers, this group can ensure that the middle management of the nation do not fall to corruption. Additionally, we hope that openness of government and freedom of press and reporting will lead to the discrediting of politicians who become corrupt. We agree with MACHO that leaving the control of taxation and of tax-collecting to local authorities presents a far greater risk of corruption than a centralised system, where the watchers and the watched may be in close proximity. We emphatically disagree that local systems make it easier to remove corrupt officials, as in small localities, the very small size of government makes it all too easy for corruption to reach the core, whereas in a larger central body, hundreds of politicians will be watching each other, all will be watched from above by the King and his councillors, and the public will be watching all. We feel that the danger posed by corruption at a small scale is too serious to risk. Local bodies will be better regulated by independent central bodies, who will be non-partisan in local issues so better able to make balanced decisions. Again, the greater size of the central government makes redundancies and safety precautions far more feasible.
On currencies, the WTA too hopes to introduce a universal paper- and credit-based currency, backed by a central bank, and made feasible by our unified fiscal policy. Together with our improvements in infrastructure, this should increase the trading power of local communities and facilitate our program for redistribuing wealth. We agree that paper money will be far more difficult to forge than coinage is.
And to Glaurung, the WTA takes the welfare of all sentient inhabitants of Middle-Earth most seriously. Due to the heterogeneity of the needs and desires of the different races of Middle-Earth, the system of elections to Parliament shall be organised such that Middle-Earth is split up into many overlapping sets of constituencies, one set for each race, to ensure adequate representation of races in minority areas. This way, the dragons, who, as a small minority in all of Middle-Earth except perhaps the Grey Mountains, will have the power to elect a couple of members of Parliament, while otherwise their needs could be sadly overloooked. As another example, as well as the several constituencies for the Men in Rohan, there will be one for the Dwarves, so that the inhabitants of the Glittering Caves may have a vote. This system will also encourage the mainstream political parties to appoint officials of differing races to positions of power.
Additionally, the WTA must highlight our opponent's use of the deeply offensive term "dragon-sickness" in reference to government corruption. The WTA considers stereotyping utterly unacceptable, and deplore the use of such racially-charged language.
Our paper- and credit-based currency will allow those dragons with a love of collection gold and jewellery to do so in a way that is not detrimental to local communities or the economy. The free market and our equality legislation will allow dragons to obtain jobs (for example in academia, in politics, in business), or to hire out their unique services (for example, for high-speed transportation in competition with the eagles, or the production of high-temperature environments for research and industry). Our education system will end the fear of dragons that is widespread among the other races, allowing dragons to take their place among the free people of Middle-Earth.
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Even with Warg riders, a centrally maintained "rapid reaction" force won't really deserve the term in Middle-earth given the size of the landmass. We also deplore the extent to which the elitists of MACHO seem to not trust local communities, and feel confident that the ordinary folks across Middle-Earth will agree with us that they are more than capable of managing these systems in a sensible, locally sensitive, and democratic fashion without having marauding orc-packs bearing down on them on a regular basis.
I'm very glad to move on and discuss the environment - and I can hope we all agree that the subject of live dragons is not a matter that should be merely laughed off. MEAD firstly, though, wishes to strongly condemn the WTA's statements regarding race. We believe that parliamentary representation cannot and must not be separated on entrenched racial or species divides, and throwing around allegations of racism whilst pursuing policies of racial segregation must surely be considered hypocrisy of the first order. Regardless of their supposedly progressive front, it is increasingly clear what the WTA stands for: the politics of the past and the politics of division, between species and between classes. We urge all right-minded voters to reject this fascist mindset.
As regards dragons, we of course wish for the dragons to have the same ability to contribute to their communities as anyone else - they are a proud and ancient race, and should be entitled to the same rights as everyone else. We will, furthermore, create federal provision for isolated parts of the Grey Mountains to become settlement-free zones such that the dragons there can remain secure and in peace. This is the heart of MEAD's policy portfolio: to ensure that all races have the opportunity to live and work side by side, on an equal footing and in harmony, whilst ensuring that the basic, fair rules of play are adhered to by all and that nobody is able to oppress or assert their dominion over others.
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The WTA rejects most emphatically allegations of racism in our policies of separation of constituencies on the basis of race. We must draw the important distinction that "races" of humans are not only equal as sentient beings, they are also the same in all regards except appearance. The "races" within humanity have the same human needs, and the same human flaws. Any human may trust another to understand their needs. However, the races of Middle-Earth are a different situation. All sentient species are equal in rights, must be equal in the eyes of the law, however they are, at least at the moment, undeniably different. It is an unfortunate fact that the races of Middle-Earth, with only a few exceptions, live in segregation.
Consider the Iron Hills. The very small population of dragons relative to that of dwarves and goblins, and the present lack of knowledge, even distrust, of the groups for each other, means that it is likely that constituencies would elect dwarf and goblin members of parliament. There are not dwarves who have lived among the dragons, who now their wishes and desires, who feel their pain. The enormous amount of work that needs to be done in Middle-Earth for racial equality and harmony must proceed quickly. The needs of the minority races, the dragons, the Ents, the trolls, the eagles, cannot be adequately represented to Parliament by the humans, dwarves, and orcs of today's world. In such a government, their voices would be suppressed by those of the majority. A dwarf representative would likely have trouble adequately arguing in Parliament for the concerns of the dragons in his constituency. An Ent may dislike his representation in Parliament being a human, who would face great difficulty understanding the concerns of Ents. Unfortunately we live in a world with great racial divisions that need to be torn down. This can only be accomplished by forcing representation for the races with sparse populations.
Our policies are in place to ensure that the voices of the minority races of Middle-Earth are heard. Perhaps in three generations Middle-Earth will progress harmonious villages where trolls live with elves, where humans live with Eagles. Where racial relations no longer need to be discussed, will be viewed as an unfortunate feature of the unenlightened past. Where an Ent would be pleased his orc representative. This is the world the WTA wants to build. But we must be practical. To achieve this ideal, we must allow the voices of all races to be heard. Otherwise we will find ourselves in a world that has developed relations between the dwarves and elves and humans and orcs, while the minority races' needs are sadly neglected. Racism exists. It is a sad and serious fact. And we need to allow representation to all.
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In response to the WTA's defence of monarchy: it is true that the nobility have greater experience in statesmanship, but this has been exclusively in times of war, which they perpetuated for their own ends. We do not feel that they have any significantly-better experience of peacetime administration and governing than anyone else, chiefly because there has been very little peace for over 6 millennia of noble rule. We therefore reject their monarchic vision and propose that a transition to demoncracy can hardly be worse than the strife the nobility has imposed on the world for so long.
MACHO would also like to take issue with MEAD's grossly-unfair stereotyping of the Orcish citizens of Middle-earth. Whilst in the past, it is true that Warg-riders have generally been marauding heralds of woe, this is not an intrinsic facet of Orcish nature, but the result of domination by a being that represented evil incarnate. MACHO feels that MEAD should immediately issue an apology to all Orcs and retract its statement if it truly wishes to be considered a party representing the interests of all, as it so stridently claims.
Orcs employed by the state as a police force would, of course, be trained in citizen relations and their presence would soon become reassuring rather than worrying. The RRF would also include an airborne division (a perfect employment opportunity for the that other historically-vilified race, the Dragons) and a scout element, with Rhosgobel-Rabbit sleighs, which, as has been demonstrated, appear able to travel vast distances in no time at all. The RRF would become a highly-visible harbinger of integration and would prove invaluable in keeping all our citizens safe. We feel MEAD are being unnecessarily small-minded, blinkered by their localist agenda.
As regards Dragons and other minority races, as set out in our opening statement, MACHO's bicameral legislature would include an upper chamber where all races had equal representation, to ensure the many do not marginalise the few. Dragons would, of course, be included in this. We also feel that Dragons would be central to the banking system we aim to set up, with their expert knowledge of the value of assets and their propensity to hoard and guard it. We feel they would be excellent guarantors of the currency standard we would create, allowing their natural talents to be turned to less-destructive uses.
We agree with MEAD that the WTA's policies could lead to an unintentional balkanisation of Middle-earth, but also recognise the wisdom of the WTA in that not all citizens may immediately respond well to integration. We believe our bicameral central legislature with its mix of porportional and non-proportional representation will help greatly in fostering integration whilst avoiding segregation. On a more practical note, elected representatives will be made to swear a binding oath to faithfully represent all consitutents and to obey all laws, calling Eru, Manwë, Varda and Taniquetil in witness and calling down the Everlasting Darkness on them should they break it, for the length of their terms of office. We feel this would rapidly create trust among all races in their representatives, regardless of their specific species, given the bad things that happen to those who break such oaths.
However, we do not believe setting aside specific homelands for different races will work, as this will simply encourage isolation. We shall pass legislation respecting all races' equality and traditions and aim to raise cultural awareness, so that different races no longer fear each other. Needless to say, racially-motivated crimes will be viewed very dimly by the judicial system.
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Our suggestion was by no means intended as a racial slight upon orcs, and of course we apologise if it was taken that way - what we were making was merely a common-sense statement that many in Middle-Earth will not welcome the sight of armed troops from a central authority bearing down on them. We believe that assuming that Orcs should be continually in military and enforcement roles, and that having segregated military units in this fashion is a poor way of breeding racial harmony.
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WHAT A SNORE-FEST!!!
After being blocked by despicable powers from participating in this debate, the SSS begins by pointing out that the people of Middle Earth DO NOT WANT endless arguments about tax and trade - the SSS believes that the past methods of trade were effective so don't fix what isn't broke! But more on that later...
So now that you have skipped passed these pointless arguments, hear now the truth that our glorious leader, Shagrat, has discovered and that will revolutionise Middle Earth:
IT'S ALL THE ELVES' FAULT!
Now Shagrat is not being racist: as an Orc, he is distantly related to Elves. But it is still their fault. They made the Silmarils which, as everyone knows, should have been shared not hidden away in a vault. It is because the Elves didn't believe in sharing that the Great War of the First Age occured, and all the mess in that. In the Second Age, the Elves made the Rings of Power and again didn't like sharing: they started a War with the Dark Lord because they thought He wanted to steal their Rings. When they did think of the solution of "destroy the One Ring to make Peace" they didn't do anything about it! Thousands of lives of Orcs and Men and Dwarves and even Elves were lost in the Third Age 'cos the Elves just watched Isildur trot off with the most dangerous Jewelry the world had ever seen - if Shagrat had been there, he would have knocked Isildur out and chucked the man and the Ring into that volcno, no questions asked!
But even though Shagrat was not there then, HE IS HERE NOW! To solve all of Middle-Earth's problems he will encourage the Elves to migrate out of the land. They've already started; they all say they want to; they're just a bit slow and lazy. They also like meddling too much. So Shagrat proposes get the Elves to leave quicker, and then repopulate their lands and redistribute their wealth and everyone will be happy.
People say that Orcs are the common enemy of all: NOT TRUE! Dwarfs don't like Elves and haven't for centuries (apart from the odd one or two exceptions). Ents feel let down by Elves who no longer bother to talk to them. Hobbits are in awe of them due to propaganda, but the majority want them as far away as possible from their nice ordered homes. Men talk of past alliances with Elves but have secret fears of Elvish bewitchment and greed - just ask the Rohirrim!
Aside from the Elves, the SSS has many excellent and well thought out plans. Any extra funding needed for the land will come from Mithril Mining seeing as how there's no Balrog in Moria anymore - Shiny Shirts for EVERYONE! Shagrat even has plans for dual ownership of the mine between Orcs and Dwarves. IMPOSSIBLE! You say? NO! Shgrat shouts! He will force the two to see eye-to-eye and stop their pointless feuding fights - any who don't will be severely re-educated!
As for Dragons, Shagrat welcomes a greater electorate as - as thinking beings even if not regularly shaped - dragons would be welcome to vote for Shagrat alongside the rest of Middle-Earth!
so...VOTE SSS - VOTE SHAGRAT! :orc:
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Hey Rob, we found the non-socialist. :P
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MACHO do not believe the Rapid Reaction Force should be exclusively Orcish Warg-riders. We welcome representatives of other species as riders; we merely anticipate that most will be Orcs due to their long-term association with the Wargs. We would also anticipate that other mounts will be used, leaving the field open for human or Elvish cavalry or Dwarvish pig/goat-riders.
Whilst of course the sight of hostile military units bearing down on you is a frightening event, we would like to think that the presence of a friendly military force will be seen as reassuring by the citizens of Middle-earth and give them comfort that the problem the RRF is responding to is being effectively and rapidly dealt with.
As the only Elvish-led party, MACHO would also like to emphatically condemn the claims of the SSS. Whilst Fëanor showed a disturbing lack of wisdom, the arrival of the Noldor in the First Age prevented far worse events befalling Middle-earth. Without the Elves, Morgoth would never have been vanquished; neither would Sauron. We would also like to point out that Sauron (Shagrat's former master, need it be said) attacked the Elves to gain the Rings of Power, not the other way round. We also suspect that had Shagrat been on hand when Isildur took the One Ring despite the urging of Elrond, he would have taken it for himself; at least, recorded instances of his character suggest this.
We also believe Shagrat's allegations about the Elves could equally be applied to the Orcs. MACHO do not propose to do this, as we are a progressive organisation seeking to heal the rifts of the past, not re-open them again and we feel this inflammatory rhetoric is in no way helpful and, worse, is downright dangerous. Middle-earth will never escape from its cycle of violence if people such as Shagrat and his adherents are in power.
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EXTERNAL NEWS: POLLSTERS MODEL ELECTION RESULTS
Two major pollsters have begun modelling the results of the election - both have come out with initial seat predictions, and both point to a hung parliament.
The model from Rhosgobel College predicts a very strong showing for the White Tree Alliance with them dominating the delegation from Gondor, and also for Green Arda, suggesting they may have a very wide base of support that sees them pick up seats across Middle-Earth. MACHO is predicted to also have a wide support base, with MEAD predominantly hanging on in Rhovanion and the SS similarly in very borderland regions.
| Party | Seats |
| Green Arda | 22 |
| MACHO | 20 |
| MEAD | 6 |
| SSS | 4 |
| WTA | 26 |
The rival model, from the University of Rivendell, takes much harsher assumptions about the divisiveness of contests in marginal seats, and comes out with a different answer that suggests more favourable results for the more marginal-centred parties and worse ones for those with a broad support base. The WTA, with their concentrated predicted base of support in Gondor, still come first, with MACHO a somewhat stronger second: MEAD still lags far behind, but is predicted to take more seats in left-leaning and liberal urban areas, with Green Arda's far weaker prediction showing it mostly doing well in central Eriador and parts of Rhovanion.
| Party | Seats |
| Green Arda | 9 |
| MACHO | 23 |
| MEAD | 11 |
| SSS | 9 |
| WTA | 26 |
Both pollsters will take more or less inaccurate potshots at the result as the campaign continues.
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The SSS and Shagrat deny the claims that he would have failed the challenge of Isildur - if Elrond didn't take it and later Gandalf, Aragorn, Galadrial (the witch) and Faramir all didn't take it then neither would Shagrat have! It is a cruel Evish attack on the character of Shagrat and other Orcs just because we pointed out THEIR FAILNGS and OPENED PEOPLE'S EYES to Elvish propaganda!
This includes the comments made about Shagrat's previous occupation and employer. Shagrat doesn't deny that he worked for the Dark Lord - when He returned to residence in Mordor He pressed into service every Orc living there, torturing and killing those who did not. Here Shagrat showed his strength of character in that he didn't fall when his home was occupied: he rose like a Numenorean from the ashes of that land to a position of authority not mere slavery. If you read the account of the Red Book the Hobbits have been s good as to compile, Shagrat always obeyed orders, even to his own endangerment amongst fellow servants of the Dark Lord. Shagrat was not selfish - he surrendered the precious Shiny Shirt to the Dark Lord and was promised its return. (Here the grievance given by the Mouth of Sauron occurred where he took the Shiny Shirt for reasons of torture and didn't keep hold of it, failing to return it to Shagrat as a reward as promised). Order is needed and following orders of whoever is in command is of first priority.
Here the SSS do begrudgingly agree with Macho that a Police Force with scary initials instead of a name is a brilliant idea. Middle Earth is a vast lad and control needs to be kept. Everyone loves military might though - Men of Rohan and Gondor delight in swordmanship as much as Dwarves delight in making weapons or Orcs in sniffing blood. Shagrat promises to continue fulfilling people's delights in this industry and to improve everyone's lives in making a stronger National Identity through a Unified Army and Police Force. Volunteers will be warmly welcomed by Shagrat even before the Election to show their Support and to Encourage other voters to also support the mighty Shagrat.
VOTE SSS, VOTE SHAGRAT! :orc:
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A question for the Shiny Shirt Society: your organisation seems to be very much about one issue. What will you do if you are not successful at this election?
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MACHO remain unconvinced about Shagrat's self-proclaimed mental fortitude. We are also concerned about his and the SSS's apparent enthusiasm for wanton violence and militarism. The last thing Middle-earth needs is to be plunged back into the maelstrom of war that has dogged it for millennia. We would also like to dissociate our RRF policy (an elite police unit) from the pervasive militarisation advocated by the SSS.
We concur with the draconic spokesman - what other policies do the SSS believe in and where will they channel their energies should the polls turn out to be an accurate reflection of their electoral fortunes?
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Is there anyone who doesn't have socialism at the core?
Of the three parties that are actively participating, no - but are you surprised, given Exilian's known political bias?
Looking at the other two parties, Green Arda looks pretty socialist too, though their manifesto sets out a series of very specific policies rather than setting out their principles. I'm less certain about the Shiny Shirt Society - I'm not sure what its political principles are, or indeed whether it has any beyond "what is shiny is best, especially if it belongs to you!". I guess that counts as fairly capitalist...
I would like to hear more from Green Arda and the SSS on the various issues raised in discussion so far, not least because if they don't participate at this stage they are likely to be eliminated from the candidate list.
Hi,
Eowyn here. Green Arda is also a party that seeks to make Middle Earth more accessible. Unfortunately this forum is not very accessible to me, and so posts are likely to be limited. Urgent questions can be posed via Facebook if needed.
To reply to some of the concerns, the manifesto was not written to be a manifesto (no editing occurred), but was more a "pouring forth" of ideas that the party feels strongly about. However, you have correctly deduced from these points that Green Arda has a strong Socialist base with a heady dose of environmentalism on top. Green and red, like a political tomato, you might say. To give more of an idea of principles, I will give a list of words/concepts below.
Socialism
Fairness in society
Protection of our Earth and its resources
A voice for the oppressed and minorities
Equality and diversity at the heart of everything in society
Accessability
Prioritising education and raising of awareness of a variety of issues in society (rather than punishing later on)
Those who can do, those who can't won't be left behind
Recognising different strengths and skills to those usually rewarded in a capitalist society
High welfare standards for our companion and work animals
Intensive agriculture in a land-sparing way, to leave more space for wilderness and biodiveristy
Improve the public transport network, so all parts of Middle Earth can be reached by zero carbon transportation
Restoration of roads and public buildings that have fallen into disrepair but are of cultural significance.
Whatever needs doing in our society, it should be kind to people, shared equally and with the protection of Arda in mind.
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To the SSS:
The WTA certainly shares MACHO's concerns about SSS's apparent tendencies towards violence and racism. Despite the SSS's assertion that such issues are "boring", we must ask what Shagrat's government intends to do about the wide range of challenges facing Middle-Earth. Their proclamation that nationalised Mithril mining will fund the State leaves us unconvinced: for how long can the price of Mithril stay as high as it is now with mass mining flooding the market? While we sympathise with Shagrat for Sauron's cruel use of him, we fail to see how this demonstrates his qualites as a suitable leader. Experience as the leader of a small warband does not make a political leader. How will Middle-Earth be governed by the SSS? A monarchy under Shagrat? A democracy? An oligarchy of all those wearing Mithril shirts?
To Green Arda:
your proclamation of the aread that concern you is of course all very well, but the WTA must request details of your specific policies. How do you propose to manage the economy? Maintain law and order? Do you have any specific environmental legislation you intend to enact? How will you ensure racial equality?
To MACHO:
While it is true that Middle-Earth's existing nobility have experience only of rule during a non-peaceful period, this does not mean that war is their only area of expertise. During war, the economy and commerce must still be managed effectively, law must still be maintained and civilian issues judged upon. We reject that experience of governance only during times of war implies an unfitness to govern during peacetime. It is still the case that experience in managing nations and regions exists only with the present nobility (with only very few exceptions), and to overlook this experience when setting up our new order would be a colossal waste of expertise.
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"your proclamation of the aread that concern you is of course all very well, but the WTA must request details of your specific policies. How do you propose to manage the economy? Maintain law and order? Do you have any specific environmental legislation you intend to enact? How will you ensure racial equality?"
I thought I had mentioned it in the "manifesto", but perhaps it's a case of "it's so clear to me, I may have forgottento communicate it clearly to others" :D
Economy: everyone will be taxed, according to their ability, but at a fairly high rate, because most services will be provided for by the state for free. Like normal Socialism. The services provided (transport, education, healthcare, etc) will be free and of a quality that exceeds that than if people paid for them individually, precisely because there is one big pot of federal money from which to provide for all. Everyone contributes to their ability, and everyone benefits, more than they could privately.
Law and order: providing good education which includes good citizenship classes. Explain to everyone from a young age what the benefits are of working together and being considerate, and the disadvantages of crime and anti-social behaviours. I do appreciate this will not keep everyone automatically on the straight and narrow, but it does help. Law enforcement is to be done at the smallest level wherever possible. For example, anti-social behaviour in a neighbourhood by (say) teenagers is to be dealt with by their elders explaining to them the ramifications of their actions, getting the culprits to apologise to those they grieved and take action to rectify it. Depending on the severity of the case, some community help may be required.
At the far graver end of the spectrum, and when affecting more people (defrauding the communal honey pot of taxes or murder) will require trial and punishment in level with the crime. So the enforcement force would range from watchful neighbourhood elders, to more traditional officers of the law with the power to arrest.
Racial equality: this again (like most things) comes back to education. I proposed that Equality and Diversity and appreciation of different cultures are part of the curriculum. This could included school exchange schemes. If you have learned about differences in society, know people from different cultures/races/ethnicities and understand them, you are far less likely to oppress them! Equal access to government services for all is core to what I have expounded so far, so that obviously includes racial equality as well. And any breaches of this are to be dealt with in accordance of the law&order proposals above.
Environmental legislation:
Restoration of any destroyed lands (such as Mordor)
Protection of the resources through various principles: reduce, re-use, recycle
Land-sparing agriculture legislation
Personal and corporate carbon budgets legislation
Subsidies for particularly good biodiversity initiatives and heavy taxes on projects that are resource-intensive
Education of environmental issues for all in school and continued awareness through public announcements and engagement
Education, education...
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Whilst we clearly have a lot in common with Green Arda in stressing the vital importance of education, we must reiterate - once again - that we appear to be the only party that sees clearly the intense dangers of having too much spending power in the hands of an over-centralised state.
We would like to take this opportunity to lay down our five core social policy pledges:
- Full and equal citizenship for all, regardless of gender, sex, and sexuality. This pledge will include marriage equality between any and all consenting adults, a commitment to a federal ban on gender discrimination in the workplace, and the inclusion of third-gender options on all official forms.
- No state surveillance; strict laws on use of the remaining palantiri, with records of use being made publicly available. There will be, by law, no secret policing or spying on citizens.
- A community-first, rehabilitative policing approach, with all communities having wide control over police recruitment, within broad federally set guidelines. Police will be formally separated from defensive militias, and may not be armed with bladed weaponry. Whilst local community law enforcement will largely administer prison services, we will encourage locally appropriate rehabilitative programmes as normal sentences for all non-violent crime. This will in turn give communities necessary manpower for improvement projects rather than leaving people locked up for years at the expense of local taxpayers.
- A Sentient Beings' Rights Bill that commits the whole of middle-Earth to basic standards of human dignity, the right to education, citizenship and a family, and voting rights for all adults. This bill would also end the death penalty; Middle-earth has seen more than enough killing, much of it at the bloodied hands of different states, and it is an absolute red line for any MEAD participation in government that we do not wish to preside over any more.
- We will federally legalise abortion (up to a period defined separately by species, with advice from medical experts) and, within certain strict limits, euthanasia as an option for the terminally ill as long as they are mentally sound enough to choose it. We believe that whilst any death is tragic, it is not the place of the state to order the hour of someone's death and seek to give people the right to end the most horrific levels of suffering that some species can endure.
We challenge all other parties to join our commitments in this area, which will help prevent the state gaining too much control over ordinary citizens' lives.
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To the WTA: We do not seek to totally exclude the nobility from government, but merely take issue with the WTA's belief that said government should reside exclusively with the said nobility. MACHO advocates a more inclusive political system.
To GAP: We welcome another party's commitment to the environment, though we do feel that carbon budget legislation may be a little premature - given Middle-earth's current lack of industry and, largely, science, this would seem excessively difficult and costly to set up in the short-term, though we applaud the principle.
To MEAD: We feel your pledges are laudable in their spirit and generally agree with them, but a few issues spring to mind:
- The Palantiri would be virtually impossible to use for all remaining beings in Middle-earth, save perhaps Galadriel and Elrond, as none now live who have the right to them and few have the mental strength. We think they should become museum exhibits or, at worst, rolled down Anduin into the Sea
- We feel that, as Death is the gift of Ilúvatar, the state should not in any way legislate to allow people to take their own lives before their appointed time. Equally, we condemn capital punishment, but we would sanction euthanasia, no matter how well-intentioned
- We also do not think police forces should be communally-recruited, due to the risk of forming ethnic militias, and would deal with such matters centrally
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In reply to carbon budget being costly and unnecessary - you are probably right. But it can be there as a principle, should industrialisation become more wide-spread.
More science in education, obviously!
I seem to not officially things which are blindingly obvious to me. Therefore I will reproduce the parts that I agree with and Green Arda stands for, from others who have typed them out.
"- Full and equal citizenship for all, regardless of gender, sex, and sexuality. This pledge will include marriage equality between any and all consenting adults, a commitment to a federal ban on gender discrimination in the workplace, and the inclusion of third-gender options on all official forms."
To me this was inherently part of what I meant when I say things like "fairness in society", "equality and diversity", "no one left behind". But it's good to state I whole-heartedly agree and also stand for this.
"- A community-first, rehabilitative policing approach, with all communities having wide control over police recruitment, within broad federally set guidelines. Police will be formally separated from defensive militias, and may not be armed with bladed weaponry. Whilst local community law enforcement will largely administer prison services, we will encourage locally appropriate rehabilitative programmes as normal sentences for all non-violent crime. This will in turn give communities necessary manpower for improvement projects rather than leaving people locked up for years at the expense of local taxpayers."
I agree, this is what I was talking about earlier in law&order.
"- A Sentient Beings' Rights Bill that commits the whole of middle-Earth to basic standards of human dignity, the right to education, citizenship and a family, and voting rights for all adults. This bill would also end the death penalty..."
Again, the idea embodied in the Sentients Beings' Rights Bill seemed inherently implied to me when saying "fairness for all", so I would definitely agree to that. Green Arda also does not condone the death penalty.
"- We will federally legalise abortion (up to a period defined separately by species, with advice from medical experts) and, within certain strict limits, euthanasia as an option for the terminally ill as long as they are mentally sound enough to choose it. We believe that whilst any death is tragic, it is not the place of the state to order the hour of someone's death and seek to give people the right to end the most horrific levels of suffering that some species can endure."
Agreed, again I felt this was inherently part of what I have proposed so far, but clearly I should be more detailed!
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To MACHO:
The WTA apologises if we have given the impression that those outside the nobility will have no place in government: the existing hereditary nobility will form the initial upper house of Parliament, whose composition will be become more varied as honours are bestowed upon meritocratically successful members of our society. The lower house will be entirely elected. Both houses will be able to introduce legislation and both will have to debate any new legislation before the King passes his final judgement.
To GAP:
Thank you for the clarification. While there are many areas where we disagree the WTA feels that our views on many of those issues have been adequately covered in previous posts. We wholeheartedly agree with you on the importance of education, and feel that most of your desires are ours as well, however we doubt that the implementation of your ideas will work in the short- to medium-term. Education can only show its benefits when the new generation comes to hold power and lead communities, and we feel there are many issues in Middle-Earth, especially equalities issues, which need to be tackled far more quickly. We believe that your proposal of citizen-level encouragement taking the place of many of the functions of law and order would be very difficult to implement, especially since many elders will hold different views to the government. In many cases, the prejudices we hope to combat will be views held by many local people, and thus any action your policy succeeds in producing will not occur for many generations.
To MEAD:
The WTA too admires the sentiment behind most of your five pledges, however we cannot agree with them in their specifics. Your pledges on marriage equality and discrimination on the basis of race, gender, sex and sexuality we wholeheartedly agree with, as well as those on abortion and euthanasia. Unlike MACHO, we feel that allowing those in pain to choose to end their own lives in no way contradicts Death's holy status as Eru's gift.
While we agree with the sentiment behind your Bill of Rights, we would prefer to set down the rights of the peoples of Middle-Earth in a non-legally-binding fashion, to allow these principles to guide the actions of government without placing it under the power of the judiciary to interpret this Bill. We emphatically agree with the abolishment of the death penalty.
The WTA certainly would not like to see our citizens under strict surveillance, however we would not like to entirely outlaw such practices. We would rather pass legislation to ensure that personal surveillance is carried out only by the national secret service,, and only in cases where significant evidence already exists to support a clear suspicion of illicit activity on a large scale - for example drug-smuggling operations and large-scale fraud. We would ensure that approval is needed from a variety of high-level figures for surveillance to proceed, and ensure that personal surveillance information, where it exists, is kept under strict security. We feel that strict controls on surveillance would be a better policy than an outright ban.
We have previously articulated our doubts about giving local communities too much power; we must disagree with allowing them power over policing, which we feel would leave this important public service too open to corruption. This is especially worrying in policing, due to how easily the police could become percieved as intimidating rather than approachable. We also share MACHO's concerns about the possibility of ethnic militias.
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Shagrat and the SSS have read all your comments and questions, but question your hostility. When asked about the possibility of failing to win this election, Shagrat scoffs: if we believe in losing we cannot win. Isn't that how Denethor died, he stopped thinking of winning? Shagrat is not greater than that once great Steward though, and he and the SSS will continue fighting even if all others are against them.
Next, we still believe Mithril mining can work. There would be other mines as well: Mordor has vast seams of coal, iron and other minerals that the Dark Lord used for His war and the SSS would re-open them. We even believe we could increase production as it would no longer be disheartened slaves toiling but hardy paid labourers. Anyone working for the government will be paid well, either in currency or bonuses such as top healthcare or free alcohol. If you support Shagrat, he will support you!
The Hippies/Communists may at this point complain about wanting to re-garden Mordor. That's all well and good but would you rather we started mining in a more 'picturesque' location and make that an eyesore? No. Shagrat will mine places which are already eyesores, though if Mount Doom is properly spent and extinct maybe an agricultural project may be set up on its slopes to provide food for the nation. Shagrat is not a farmer himself but the SSS has some of the top (if only because they're the closest thing this side of alchemy) scientists who could turn barren places like Mordor and the Misty Mountains into Positive Production Zones.
Finally just because the War of the Rings is over doesn't mean all wars are at an end: it is foolish to think Peace is a lasting thing. King Elessar may have sent negotiators to Harad and Khand etc BUT that doesn't mean diddly now he's dead. Easterners and Southerners could be rebuilding their armies as we debate the finer details of who can die - we could all DIE! So Shagrat says we should be prepared. And, as stated earlier, most of the population of Middle Earth, although tired of a long drawn out war, are still socially geared towards it with small boys celebrating fighting fathers. GAP wants to brainwash them otherwise but Shagrat says we should use what we have and delight in it!
You never know - some of those Elves travelling to Sea may actually be travelling to plot with our neighbouring enemies!
Protect yourselves then, and VOTE SHAGRAT, VOTE SSS! :orc:
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This be a voter from Dunland. I can't understand all these complicated words you use, and I can't keep up with these long speeches. We just want to be left alone to live our lives in peace and quiet. We can look after ourselves well enough; we don't need no "government" telling us what we can and can't do. So which of you should I vote for?
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People like you should absolutely vote for MEAD. 5 good reasons:
- We won't make a big central government with huge powers - we want to keep government local.
- We'll let you take decisions over how you run most things locally, with the government providing a positive safeguard to check you're getting services that are as good as other areas.
- We will secure your freedom by making snooping and prying into your business illegal
- We'll make sure you can sell things freely and don't get bought out by big landlords or bosses, with no sales tax for small businesses
- A MEAD force in government would ensure everyone has access to education if they want it, to help people help themselves and ensure education isn't just something for the rich and powerful.
A vote for MEAD is a vote for freedom!
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Dunlander
The simple message is:
SHAGRAT IS THE BEST
He will give you a free SHINY SHIRT of MITHRIL even before he reclaims his own that was stolen by a wizard...
SHAGRAT WILL LOOK AFTER YOU
Shagrat only hurts his enemies, but ALWAYS HELPS his friends - make sure you're a friend!
SHAGRAT WILL GET HIS MISTY MOUNTAIN COUSINS TO STOP ATTACKING YOUR PEOPLE
Or if you're into Orc ladies/men as some near Isengard must have been to make Uruk-hai babies, Shagrat will get his cousins to "get to know you"
Simple enough?
VOTE SHAGRAT!!! :orc:
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It be the Dunlander here again, replying to that Shiny Shirt person.
Did I hear you right? If we're not Shagrat's friends, we're his enemies, is that it? And he hurts his enemies, you say. I think we've heard that before - are you sure you don't have that Saruman tucked away there somewhere, whispering in your ear?
And a shiny shirt? What would we do with that? We can't eat it; we can't all wear it.
And you others, white and green and macho, we haven't heard from you yet.
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Dear Dunlander
We apologise for the delay in getting back to you - we merely wanted to formulate the best-possible answer to your question. You should vote MACHO because:
- We would ensure you are no longer marginalised by the Rohirrim, whom you call Forgoil, and would become equal citizens of the community of Middle-earth, with effective representation in government
- We would set up a caring state that would ensure effective education, healthcare, benefits, security and services for all communities, rather than leaving them to fend for themselves
- We would not impose development on you, but would leave you to choose your own path within the wider framework of a MACHO state
- We would help you open up new markets for your local industries and products, allowing you to develop and prosper
Vote MACHO for a brighter, equal future!
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Dear Dunlander,
You say "We just want to be left alone to live our lives in peace and quiet". A great reason to vote for the Green Arda party. Pristine wilderness and biodiversity are excellent sources of "peace and quiet". Anti-war outlook will avoid conflict at all cost, keeping your peace. Well-educated citizens will get on with their lives in a variety of ways that are considerate and kind to all, giving you quiet.
You love your beautiful Dunland and way of life - vote Green Arda.
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The hustings is now officially over! The SSS comes out as a minor party, and the others all rank as major parties.
We now move on to the main debate thread:
http://exilian.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3846