Author Topic: Belief  (Read 11091 times)

Cuddly Khan

  • Silhouette in Disguise
  • Patrikios
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 7832
  • Karma: 33
  • PURGE THE BOTS!!
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Belief
« on: October 23, 2012, 12:15:49 PM »
This guy made such an awesome point that I just had to post it here:

Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
I don't know if I hate this kind of post or not. I am personally bothered by it, because it reminds me of people who believe in ghosts or god, or aliens, Bigfoot...on and on. without any real reason too other then it cramps their tiny brain and somehow gives them a retard hard on. If you are just trying to have some fun and be imaginative cool beans, other wise...Yawn. Admittedly it would be cool if there was some random hidden NPC dangers lurking in the zone untold.
There's no really substantial reason to believe in ghosts or Bigfoot (that I'm aware of) but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss God or aliens. It is speculated, that there are thousands of potential planets out there that can support life (though no proof exists). In the countless galaxies that exist, and within them the billions of stars/planets, don't you think it's a bit unreasonable to think that people don't have a good reason to believe aliens exist .

 Similarly, there are many things that make a universe without a creator of some kind implausible. This is not to say that it's likely there is a creator, but I would say that we should all try to be a bit more open minded about such possibilities.

 Besides, why should it bother you in the slightest what other people believe in? As long as they don't go around shoving it in your face, does it really matter that some people believe in ghosts? What automatically makes it so that anyone who thinks ghost exist, do so to get a "retard hard on"? Or have I misunderstood your statement?

 Personally, this stuff is all really entertaining. I love the fact that some of it could be true -- if I made a game, it'd have loads of tiny cool stuff in it. I love Easter Eggs, or other hidden discoveries waiting to be found.
Why not? There's no evidence for him, so why are you not as quick to dismiss God as you are Bigfoot?

 This is actually a very misleading statement, and I question whether you know what the definition of evidence is or not. Evidence does not mean solid proof, evidence means, "The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid." Clearly, by that definition, we can determine that evidence only means something that suggests a certain proposition is true. You know how when you're watching all of those crime T.V. shows, and they're dealing with the law, evidence can be anything and everything that supports a proposition? Witness testimony is a form of evidence -- this is because evidence is a broad term that applies to a range of things.

The arguments that true infinities are implausible, and as such the universe did have a definitive beginning; the simple question of "why something, rather than nothing?"; the fundamental physical constants are set to such a narrow range that if they were changed in minor amounts the universe would be totally inhospitable to life; the list goes on and on and on (I have about 12 more by rough estimation in mind). There are many reasons to believe in a God, one shouldn't simply dismiss the possibility of any evidence existing.




Quote
Like what? If you say ANYTHING about the eye I'm going to punch you


"Science adjusts its views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin


 If I were you, I would've used one with some substance and wit, such as, "In the beginning, man created God.". Of course, neither quote is relevant to discovering what the *truth* is, they're only used to insult the other side of the argument. There's plenty of evidence and reason to believe in a God, but there is also plenty of evidence and reason to not believe in a God. To have faith and absolute faith are two entirely different things. Faith on its own, is not an inherently negative or close-minded thing. It can be both, but only in the case of absolute faith (which many theists do have admittedly).


“Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system. I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance." -Sir Isaac Newton

 Cute quotes, that they are, but both irrelevant. Plenty of theists, in spite of their faith, are open to reason. What I find really funny, is that many theists admit that they're close-minded... yet atheists who are obsessed with being open-minded are entirely close-minded to the idea of any God existing.

Tl;dr: Don't dismiss the possibility of evidence supporting a certain proposition. This is not the place to have a religious debate, so please, let's not try to insult other people's beliefs.

Most effective elected official. Ever. (not counting Jubal)

He is Jubal the modder, Jubal the wayfarer, Jubal the admin. And he has come to me now, at the turning of the tide.

Jubal

  • Megadux
    Executive Officer
  • Posts: 35601
  • Karma: 140
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2012, 05:32:41 PM »
I feel he to some extend misunderstands atheism; it's very fashionable to portray atheists as people who believe there is no god, when this is in fact incorrect. Atheists - generally speaking - assume there is no god due to lack of evidence on the subject.

Why is this in contradiction to what he said? Well, it's less his points on God so much as his dismissal of Bigfoot. The evidential and logical basis for both God and Bigfoot is less dissimilar than you might think. Both have a strong body of cultural and mythological tales built up around their existence. Both have certain signs which people often contend are evidence for their existence. But evidence isn't a case of counting evidence-beans any more than it's a case of definite proof. We look at the evidence we have, then come up with the simplest explanation based on what we know.

So I know that the universal constants are in a slim range in which life could exist. I then look at theses, or ideas, to explain why this is the case:
1 - We are in the only universe, and it happened by pure chance
2 - There is a benevolent sentient being who organised it that way
This is the dichotomy theists tend to create. Due to the large probabilities involved if we assume physics could have taken any range of constants, the likelihood of 1 and 2 may seem similar. However, consider the following ideas:

3 - There may be an almost infinite number of universes with differing physics - as we are unable to observe the others we would naturally assume ours was in some way special.
4 - Life may be more resilient than we thing or may simply have evolved in different ways under different conditions: rather than pointing out that the way the universe works is fitted to life as we know it, it's equally true to say that the life in our universe is very neatly adapted to its physical conditions.

3 and 4, as brief ideas I've thrown in here, break up the idea that it's a choice between deity and improbability. We simply don't know enough to say that life is improbable (4) or that these conditions are (3).

But if we don't know enough, doesn't that leave the god idea (2) as perfectly sensible?

Well, not really. 2 requires that we put into the system a being of infinite power and complexity, and therefore practically by definition is the least simple answer to add into our understanding of the world. The question "well where did God come from" is a worn-out adage when it comes to the creation of the universe, but more pertinent is "how does God work?". That is the question which there is no evidence to answer. There are questions where God can be put in as a thesis of explanation. A thesis is meaningless without a mechanism though. If I want to prove that the Peasants' Revolt was caused by economic hardship, I not only need to observe that economic hardship could potentially be a reason for rebellion, I need to demonstrate how the chain of events worked. I need the mechanism by which economics affected politics. Similarly, when an atheist contends that there is no evidence for God, what they are saying is that there is no systematic evidence for the way God works or affects reality, and until that case changes atheists will continue to contend that due to God's infinite complexity there is literally no way of using Him as an explanation for a situation which is the simplest of the plausible theses that fits with the evidence.

(Incidentally, it's possible to argue quite well that Bigfoot is the more probable to exist of the two, and I would do; aliens are a different kettle of fish altogether, and have a pretty high likelihood of existing though probably in most cases only as single celled gloop).
The duke, the wanderer, the philosopher, the mariner, the warrior, the strategist, the storyteller, the wizard, the wayfarer...

Cuddly Khan

  • Silhouette in Disguise
  • Patrikios
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 7832
  • Karma: 33
  • PURGE THE BOTS!!
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2012, 09:08:33 PM »
There is plenty of evidence that God exists but proof seems to be lacking for some people. :P People say that the Bible is just Fiction but it's writing began over 2000 years ago, maybe over 4000 years ago. And it's not just something that someone would make into a 'fairytale', fairytales are for little kids. Not a 1000 page book written in old English. Is that evidence enough. 'Evidence does not mean solid proof, evidence means, "The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."' and that's why I say that there is plenty of evidence but not as much proof.
Most effective elected official. Ever. (not counting Jubal)

He is Jubal the modder, Jubal the wayfarer, Jubal the admin. And he has come to me now, at the turning of the tide.

Jubal

  • Megadux
    Executive Officer
  • Posts: 35601
  • Karma: 140
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2012, 12:53:29 PM »
Factcheck: the bible was written in Hebrew, then Greek, then Latin. It wasn't translated into English until the 1510s or thereabouts.  :P

As a query, I'd note that a lot of other books were written at a similar time to the Bible. Why should the Bible be more correct than, say, the epic of Gilgamesh, or Egil's Saga, or Beowulf, or the Odyssey? If we take no prior assumptions - in other words, if we just take the texts at face value - it doesn't seem that there's a huge or obvious difference between these different religious/cultural stories and texts in terms of why I should favour one over another.

I'm not saying evidence requires proof - indeed I firmly believe that nothing can be proved, only disproved. All I'm saying is that given the available evidence I can see no plausible circumstances in which the existence of God is the simplest thesis to fit to the available evidence. That doesn't mean I have a problem with people believing of course, but the point is that it ultimately comes down to a belief which is not, logically or scientifically or historically, the logical conclusion from the evidence available. It's a case of your personal convictions and belief, and people should treat it as such.
The duke, the wanderer, the philosopher, the mariner, the warrior, the strategist, the storyteller, the wizard, the wayfarer...

comrade_general

  • Guest
Re: Belief
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2012, 10:15:59 PM »
Until someday mankind will hopefully move beyond these ancient superstitions (likely arising from past alien visitations ;D) and reach potentials that we never knew existed. The human experience hasn't yet begun.

Cuddly Khan

  • Silhouette in Disguise
  • Patrikios
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 7832
  • Karma: 33
  • PURGE THE BOTS!!
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2012, 09:11:04 AM »
Those 'ancient superstitions' will always be there, why? Because it always has been, even when we can travel from here to Mars in a few seconds, people will still believe in a higher being. I'm not being all 'Christ will he there for us all ways!' but what I'm saying is that quite a larger percentage of Earth believes that a high being exists, so it's not likely to die down very fast a all.
Most effective elected official. Ever. (not counting Jubal)

He is Jubal the modder, Jubal the wayfarer, Jubal the admin. And he has come to me now, at the turning of the tide.

Skull

  • Magister equitum
  • Citizens
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 357
  • Karma: 5
  • It is easier to criticize than to correct our past
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2012, 04:26:10 PM »
The human experience hasn't yet begun.
If it is so bad here now,I don't want to know how will it be in 100 years... -_-
Skull, the one of poor grammar, the enemy of all Grammar Nazi and destroyer of all linguistic reasoning!

Jubal

  • Megadux
    Executive Officer
  • Posts: 35601
  • Karma: 140
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2012, 05:18:46 PM »
I'm inclined to believe it will be a great many lifetimes before religion in its current form disappears, and if it is replaced it will probably be replaced with some sort of cultural system providing some of the same things (sense of community, sense of awe). However, it's demonstrably incorrect to say that if something always has been the case it always will be.

The end of religion is certainly not on the cards at the moment anyway.
The duke, the wanderer, the philosopher, the mariner, the warrior, the strategist, the storyteller, the wizard, the wayfarer...

comrade_general

  • Guest
Re: Belief
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2012, 02:18:34 AM »
Star Trek FTW!

Othko97

  • SotK Beta
  • Patrikios
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 3520
  • Karma: 9
    • View Profile
    • Personal Site
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2012, 07:54:13 AM »
If there is a god, why do we see so many imperfections in our world? An omniscient designer would surely notice, for instance, that photosynthesis isn't as efficient as it could be. There is also the argument of evil and suffering - how could a benevolent god, assumed to be omnipotent, allow the moral and natural evils in the world around us. This brings to mind the great argument presented by Epicurus:
Quote
Is God both able and willing to prevent evil?
Then from whence does evil come?
Is God able but not willing to prevent evil?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he willing but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he neither willing nor able?
Then why call him God?

Note that I was paraphrasing, I can't recall the exact wording of his argument, but that is very similar.
I am Othko, He who fell from the highest of places, Lord of That Bit Between High Places and Low Places Through Which One Falls In Transit Between them!


Pentagathus

  • King of the Wibulnibs
  • Posts: 2713
  • Karma: 20
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2012, 08:09:17 PM »
I BELIEVE in a thing called love. Just listen to the rhythm of my heart. I BELIEVE in thing called loooooove, ooooooooo-oooooo-ooo-oo geetar! reowneowneowneeoowneeowneoewreowneowneowneowneow.

Cuddly Khan

  • Silhouette in Disguise
  • Patrikios
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 7832
  • Karma: 33
  • PURGE THE BOTS!!
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2012, 12:01:33 PM »
If there is a god, why do we see so many imperfections in our world? An omniscient designer would surely notice, for instance, that photosynthesis isn't as efficient as it could be. There is also the argument of evil and suffering - how could a benevolent god, assumed to be omnipotent, allow the moral and natural evils in the world around us. This brings to mind the great argument presented by Epicurus:
Quote
Is God both able and willing to prevent evil?
Then from whence does evil come?
Is God able but not willing to prevent evil?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he willing but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he neither willing nor able?
Then why call him God?

Note that I was paraphrasing, I can't recall the exact wording of his argument, but that is very similar.
I myself am religious and when I see this argument (About God not stopping evil) I really have to just roll my eyes. I really don't want to go into to much detail otherwise you'd just think I'm filling you with 'all of that religious crap'. Basically, Earth is a test.
Most effective elected official. Ever. (not counting Jubal)

He is Jubal the modder, Jubal the wayfarer, Jubal the admin. And he has come to me now, at the turning of the tide.

Son of the King

  • Megas Domestikos
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 3368
  • Karma: 29
  • Awards Awarded for outstanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • SotK
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2012, 03:08:47 PM »
You should go into detail. Why would a kind and omnipotent God make such a cruel test?

Cuddly Khan

  • Silhouette in Disguise
  • Patrikios
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 7832
  • Karma: 33
  • PURGE THE BOTS!!
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2012, 07:25:35 PM »
So he can see who is worthy of Heaven. He's the one who ultimately created Satan. I mean, realy? Would god want people like... Hitler going to Heaven? So life is a test to see what people do with their lives, and if they do the right thing than they get to go to Heaven. I could go into more detail but...
Most effective elected official. Ever. (not counting Jubal)

He is Jubal the modder, Jubal the wayfarer, Jubal the admin. And he has come to me now, at the turning of the tide.

comrade_general

  • Guest
Re: Belief
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2012, 09:39:10 PM »
Peter Griffin: [in Sunday School with several children during story time] And when you die, you go to a wonderful place called heaven
[children gasp in delight, Peter starts laughing]
Peter Griffin: Nah, I'm just jackin' ya, you'll all rot in the ground.
[children look horrified]