Author Topic: Belief  (Read 11040 times)

Othko97

  • SotK Beta
  • Patrikios
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 3520
  • Karma: 9
    • View Profile
    • Personal Site
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2012, 09:40:43 PM »
What are they being judged on in your eyes? Upholding Biblical values, not losing faith in God, doing the right thing in adverse situations or something else entirely?
I am Othko, He who fell from the highest of places, Lord of That Bit Between High Places and Low Places Through Which One Falls In Transit Between them!


Pentagathus

  • King of the Wibulnibs
  • Posts: 2704
  • Karma: 20
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2012, 08:02:26 PM »
So he can see who is worthy of Heaven. He's the one who ultimately created Satan. I mean, realy? Would god want people like... Hitler going to Heaven? So life is a test to see what people do with their lives, and if they do the right thing than they get to go to Heaven. I could go into more detail but...
Yes but god also created each and everyone of us so our faults are entirely his creation.

Cuddly Khan

  • Silhouette in Disguise
  • Patrikios
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 7832
  • Karma: 33
  • PURGE THE BOTS!!
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2012, 07:52:04 AM »
Peter Griffin: [in Sunday School with several children during story time] And when you die, you go to a wonderful place called heaven
[children gasp in delight, Peter starts laughing]
Peter Griffin: Nah, I'm just jackin' ya, you'll all rot in the ground.
[children look horrified]
I think I've seen that one. :P Have you seen the Simpsons episode when Bart goes to a Sunday school. :D

So he can see who is worthy of Heaven. He's the one who ultimately created Satan. I mean, realy? Would god want people like... Hitler going to Heaven? So life is a test to see what people do with their lives, and if they do the right thing than they get to go to Heaven. I could go into more detail but...
Yes but god also created each and everyone of us so our faults are entirely his creation.
So are you saying there that God controls each and everyone of our actions? Our choices are our own.

What are they being judged on in your eyes? Upholding Biblical values, not losing faith in God, doing the right thing in adverse situations or something else entirely?
We are being judge on all those things, yes. Every single thing we do really. Not really just the bad things but the good things too. We are also judged on things we don't do as well. So it isn't specific things, just how we live. Imagine a court room where God's the Jury, Judge and the Prosecutor all at once. Well, this is only my view on things. Other groups (Eg. Jehovah's Witness, etc.) Would probably have different views on things.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 08:09:02 AM by The Khan »
Most effective elected official. Ever. (not counting Jubal)

He is Jubal the modder, Jubal the wayfarer, Jubal the admin. And he has come to me now, at the turning of the tide.

Pentagathus

  • King of the Wibulnibs
  • Posts: 2704
  • Karma: 20
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2012, 07:28:17 PM »
Ok, so either god created us from nothing or he simply gave bodies to our already existing souls. If the first one is the case then god made us what we are, so god is the creator of evil (unless of course god himself is partly evil?) as we are apparently the only beings capable of evil (apart from angels but I'm under the impression that god created them too so its the same dilemma.) If its the second one then why does god have any right to dictate how we act or what we are?
Edit:
Really not sure if I've got my point across here concisely. And I'd like to point out I'm simply asking this from curiosity, I generally have no problem with other peoples beliefs.

Jubal

  • Megadux
    Executive Officer
  • Posts: 35493
  • Karma: 140
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2012, 11:41:37 PM »
My query, as it always is, is why faith in God should be a prerequisite for this courtroom.

Essentially, the way I see it goes as follows: if there is no God, as I assume because it fits my previous simplest explanation clause, all good, I rot, fine.

Okay, now let's explore what happens if I'm wrong.

If God exists, and he is just and purely compassionate, then it stands to reason he will judge people based on their compassion. As I endeavour to lead a compassionate life but accept that I am a flawed person, I think this seems a fair criterion to be judged upon.

However, if God exists but requires both compassion AND belief, then he is implicitly raising belief to the same level as compassion, which I cannot accept. Either he is a good God and exists to ensure kindness, or he is sufficiently self-centred to believe himself and his worship (which are not in themselves requirements for his happiness or existence or anyone else's) to be as important as the questions of empathy, friendship, not causing pain to others, etc, which I empirically know cause genuine pain and problems to people. If this is the case, I would not consider such a God a suitable arbiter of merit anyway as compared to our most important instincts to do what is right and help those around us.
The duke, the wanderer, the philosopher, the mariner, the warrior, the strategist, the storyteller, the wizard, the wayfarer...

Cuddly Khan

  • Silhouette in Disguise
  • Patrikios
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 7832
  • Karma: 33
  • PURGE THE BOTS!!
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2012, 05:47:43 AM »
Besides the topic of belief, did you know that the Bible is the only religious scripture that is backed up by science.
Most effective elected official. Ever. (not counting Jubal)

He is Jubal the modder, Jubal the wayfarer, Jubal the admin. And he has come to me now, at the turning of the tide.

Othko97

  • SotK Beta
  • Patrikios
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 3520
  • Karma: 9
    • View Profile
    • Personal Site
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2012, 07:44:53 AM »
The only thing in that list which humanity should be judged on, at least in my eyes, is doing the right thing. Consider the spread of the globe, and now the wide spread of cultures. Now remember that there are places where word of God and Christianity have not reached. These people cannot have read the Bible, or ever had faith in this god, as they have never heard of him, yet God would still send them to hell (according to the Bible) for not believing in him, which is actually one of the 10 Commandments.

Speaking of the 10 Commandments, which are supposedly the moral code for all people to live by, I refuse to accept a fair few as moral values. In my opinion the first 4 commandments are for no purpose other than God's vanity (or at least a purpose without any moral backing and not really too important in society) and commandment 7 (You shall not commit adultery) is redundant, as it is effectively covered in commandment 10, on coveting - why would you adulter with someone you did not covet?

Besides the topic of belief, did you know that the Bible is the only religious scripture that is backed up by science.

Please explain?
I am Othko, He who fell from the highest of places, Lord of That Bit Between High Places and Low Places Through Which One Falls In Transit Between them!


Cuddly Khan

  • Silhouette in Disguise
  • Patrikios
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 7832
  • Karma: 33
  • PURGE THE BOTS!!
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2012, 08:41:51 AM »
There is evidence of scientific theories mentioned in the bible that haven't been discovered until the 1900's. http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Scientific-Proof-of-Bible.php

There is also historic proof and archaeological proof.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 08:59:38 AM by The Khan »
Most effective elected official. Ever. (not counting Jubal)

He is Jubal the modder, Jubal the wayfarer, Jubal the admin. And he has come to me now, at the turning of the tide.

comrade_general

  • Guest
Re: Belief
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2012, 11:05:18 AM »
That is all quite ridiculous.

Jubal

  • Megadux
    Executive Officer
  • Posts: 35493
  • Karma: 140
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2012, 12:51:16 PM »
Okay, a randomised selection of refutations for you:



"Lightning and thunder are related" - 19th Century
Is this actually a claim that nobody realised that lightning and thunder happened at the same time until the VICTORIANS? Because if so I have Thor and Zeus on the line and they're kind of angry at being ignored here.

"Water Cycle" - 17th Century
Actually, this doesn't describe the water cycle as found in the C17th because it doesn't describe the important stages (evaporation, precipitation, etc). This just points out that the sea doesn't overflow, which was pretty common knowledge since people noticed water goes into the sea.

"The earth is round"
Specifically this talks of the earth being a circle. The earth is in fact a sphere. Furthermore, it is entirely historically false to say that nobody knew the earth was spherical until the C15th. Greek scholars had worked this out by 330 BC (at which time the Hebrews still believed the earth was a circular disk with the skies like a tent over the top).

"Earth is held in place by invisible forces"
The quote here shows an entire lack of understanding of said forces, and furthermore backs up my previous point. The earth cannot "hang", as we know, because gravity works inwards towards the centre of mass of an object. The only way the earth could be considered hanging was if there was one main direction, external to earth, in which gravity worked, which was the same regardless of where you were on the planet. And that can't be the case if the earth is spherical, so implicitly this is talking about a disk-shaped world again.

"Man was the last animal created"
...news to me. Scientific source for this ground-breaking discovery?



If you want, I'm happy to try the reverse; pick a mythology of your choice and I'll happily come up with a load of tenuous links to modern science. Epic of Gilgamesh, the Viking legends, Greek myths, Lord of the Rings, you name it.  :P
The duke, the wanderer, the philosopher, the mariner, the warrior, the strategist, the storyteller, the wizard, the wayfarer...

Pentagathus

  • King of the Wibulnibs
  • Posts: 2704
  • Karma: 20
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2012, 07:37:30 PM »
Also if god is omniscient why does he bother to test us when he must know how we will react to the test anyway?

Othko97

  • SotK Beta
  • Patrikios
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 3520
  • Karma: 9
    • View Profile
    • Personal Site
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2012, 10:43:36 PM »
I've seen that site before, I was quite shocked at how bad the "proofs" are. First of all, many claiming to have been found in the Bible before the science are just plain wrong, as for example the idea of atoms as invisible particles making everything up has been around since ancient Greece, which was long before the Bible was written in the first place, and the edition being quoted was printed in the 1600s anyway, so some of the earlier discoveries were probably already discovered at the time of printing. Then, most of the rest are either untrue in itself, have a completely nonsensical quote, have a quote which doesn't indicate the actual scientific theory or finally have a quote which somehow is relatable, but show a lack of understanding on the knowledge. I'd also like to point out that as a good half are in the Old testament, Judaism also shares these "proofs" (and I think Islam also will, I'm unsure on this though).

Obvious/Already Known:
Lightning and Thunder are related - This is like saying that fish live in the sea. It doesn't take a genius to figure that the light and noise which consistently follows it are related.
Matter is made of invisible particles - I already pointed this out
Both man and woman possess the seed of life - Considering that both genders were at the time required for procreation, this isn't a staggering revelation
Quarantine of Diseases - This was done with sufferers of leprosy even in very ancient times.

Wrong/Non-existent Theories:
Blood is necessary for life - Tell that to a single celled organism
There is a place void of stars in the North - The Hubble Deep-field seems to disagree with this
The oceans have natural paths in them - What?
Infinite number of stars - Due to entropy, there is not actually an unlimited number of stars
Snow has material value - What does this even mean? Igloos?
Dust is necessary to survive - What? Admittedly, it builds the immune system, but the quote just talks about God measuring how much dust there is.
Most Shipworthy ship - This seems to be entirely made up, google offers no hints as to this theory being around. If it is real, then I would put this down to a coincidence.

Nonsensical Quotes/Quotes which don't back up theory:
Certain Animals carry diseases deadly to man - The quote goes on about not eating certain animals for cleanliness, not disease.
Blood of animals carries diseases - As above
Earth was in nebular form to begin with - It says all was dark, if you can name a nebula which is made of darkness, I commend you.
Light is a particle and has mass - Nowhere in the quote does it state light having mass, it just asks where light lives.
Radio Astronomy - it talks about stars singing, not emitting radiation. To be quite honest, quotes saying the stars shine is nearer the mark.
Hubert Spencer's Survival of the Fittest - Genesis 1 talks about God making everything, not survival of the fittest in any way.
Light can be split into colours - Rainbows? Also, the quote simply says parted, not parted into the individual colours.
Plants use sunlight to manufacture food - The quote actually splits up the speaking of sun and a branch. This to me indicates the lack of evidence in the Bible.
Life originated in the sea - God made the sea creatures first, which is apparently the same as evolution starting in the sea?
Taxonomic Classification - Nowhere in this quote is anything resembling taxonomy mentioned.

Misinterpretations:
While arguably most the evidence could go here, this was made specifically for one. This was a blatant misinterpretation:
Arcturus and other stars move through space - The quote is fairly obviously talking about how stars appear to move across the sky, not how they genuinely move through space
Air has weight - Although this one I'm not sure on, I'm pretty sure the quote is referring to the force the wind seems to have.

The ocean containing freshwater springs is the only proof which I can say passes my test, however this is also probably wrong due to a lack of subject knowledge. My criticism would be it doesn't specifically state freshwater, the Bible could be referring to salllamaer springs, and there could have been such a freshwater spring near the authors of the Bible, not really predicting as such.

I'd also like to say I am no way trying to alter your beliefs, I'm merely questioning the evidence apparently found supporting the Bible, as one should following the scientific method.
I am Othko, He who fell from the highest of places, Lord of That Bit Between High Places and Low Places Through Which One Falls In Transit Between them!


Cuddly Khan

  • Silhouette in Disguise
  • Patrikios
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 7832
  • Karma: 33
  • PURGE THE BOTS!!
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2012, 10:52:34 PM »
LOL, I do admit, some of them are really far fetched. :P
Most effective elected official. Ever. (not counting Jubal)

He is Jubal the modder, Jubal the wayfarer, Jubal the admin. And he has come to me now, at the turning of the tide.

Jubal

  • Megadux
    Executive Officer
  • Posts: 35493
  • Karma: 140
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2012, 11:31:29 PM »
You're correct by the way, Othko; most Jewish religious texts are considered to be holy in Islam, though if there's a conflict between them and the Qu'ran the latter wins.
The duke, the wanderer, the philosopher, the mariner, the warrior, the strategist, the storyteller, the wizard, the wayfarer...

Clockwork

  • Charming Prince of Darkness
  • Citizens
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 2055
  • Karma: 17
  • Bitter? Me? portugal no, I think it's hilarious.
  • Awards Came first in the Summer 2020 Exilian forum pub quiz
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Belief
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2016, 01:29:09 PM »
Saw someone online looking at this. Didn't know we had one of these threads. I guess in an ironic way, I'm resurrecting a thread about belief :P


I think that there's a lot of misconception about modern religious views (not saying here specifically, just in general) in both America and Europe because of the bad press that the former gets constantly. Yes there are a lot of extremely religious people that take their texts too literally but that's not what the majority of theists do.


I used to go to church a bit and a fair amount of my friends are religious of some sort of denomination. Modern theists don't believe a God/s created a world, it's recognised that those creation stories were for a time when it was impossible to know and as such it was thought of as comforting to know that you (in a general sense) are here on purpose. Religion nowadays is used for the same thing, I personally would love to believe that there's a God that is looking out for me and that can hear me when I'm talking to myself about whatever the hell's going wrong. Not even to do things for me (which I think what this thread is stuck on imo) but just to believe that someone else knows that life kinda hurts and when it does, someone else knows about it.


Religion doesn't make people stupid or weak, it's a tool to help them get through life, much like anti-depressants, finding a partner, having children, smoking, drinking, sports or whatever it is that makes you feel like you can do the day-to-day bs to be able to get to the good and great stuff in between.


Just my 2c.
Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense.