Author Topic: Mapping Department Organization Thread  (Read 27348 times)

Vrosivs Avgvstvs Rakvs

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Mapping Department Organization Thread
« on: September 29, 2016, 04:50:12 PM »
This thread is reserved for the Mapping Department Members and is to be used for general organization of the department. All members of this department are asked to visit this thread periodically, so as to be up to date with their own involvement in the development.
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ahowl11

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Re: Mapping Department Organization Thread
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2016, 07:52:06 AM »
Right now, Muizer is working on this and giving updates when he can. Gigantus can help when needed, EmoDude can also help. Mausolos, myself, and some other researchers can be of assistance if needed.
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Muizer

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Re: Mapping Department Organization Thread
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2016, 09:55:02 PM »
Status update.

I've added rivers to the feature map and settlements to the regions map.

Planned work:

This is where the infrastructure needs to be added. The way I see it, this is an integral part of the exercise. I'm not content to have settlements in historically accurate places. As much as possible, I also want roads to go in historically correct  places. As you know, RTW does not have a road map as such, and routing is a matter of creating and constraining the most economical path between capitals of adjacent regions.  So, it's going to be a challenge.

Btw, there is extensive info on transport in the Roman Empire. Though anachronistic at game start, those roads are at least plausible, so I will use them. Outside of the empire though, for me anyway, road placement is a highly speculative business in the sense that there may well be information available locally or in research papers, but it's not been integrated into map material I can use. Any information about things like major passes, fords, bridges and trade routes is appreciated.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 10:01:55 PM by Muizer »

Suppanut

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Re: Mapping Department Organization Thread
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2016, 02:56:56 AM »
I do that in Extended Cultures 5. We could force direction of road indirectly. with some simple rules.

1) River and fords help a lot. most of natural roads in history was forcing by river crossing location after all.
2) Road path abhors swamp terrain ( this due to road path based on minimized movement cost, not the shortest distance). So a few swamp block (I mostly did it on ford to force engine to choosing another ford to cross) could shift path of the road.
3) Road could not move diagonally, this would help a lot in create pathblock to shape road pattern. Guide the way with impassible terrain (mountain and dense forest) but make sure it is not too much though, there could be many problem follow as you would never want to restrict movement of character too much.
4) Road path is the same path as pathfinding system of engine, it has limit range, too long distance (50 is already have problem in some paths) with confuse pathfinding would make road not able to appear on that path.
5) Bewared ctd causing by character side-step into water tile if you forcing road to be too close to the coast line without protection with feature from "map_features.tga". (river in water tile will prevent this side step but ship still able to move on it like normal)

Suppanut

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Re: Mapping Department Organization Thread
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2016, 03:35:38 PM »
This is collection of map on road and trade routes. I hope this would help.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/yd51cest4190s35/Roads_and_Trade_Route.rar

Muizer

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Re: Mapping Department Organization Thread
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2016, 06:12:21 PM »
Excellent! Going to be a lot of work to stitch it all together, but I don't mind that.

Vrosivs Avgvstvs Rakvs

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Re: Mapping Department Organization Thread
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2016, 08:24:47 PM »
Great job guys! Very glad to see this much progress!
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DCLXVIMRTRVEBLAKKOKKVLTDCLXVI

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Re: Mapping Department Organization Thread
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2016, 09:50:02 PM »
Maybe we could reassign the ground types and change swamp in something that can be used on more area's.

My suggestion is:
Swamp: Wilderness (this would be used for sandy deserts when used for the desert climates or badlands in combination with semi-arid climates)
Wilderness: Infertile Grassland (can be used in combination with the humid continental climate for a transition zone with the steppe climate)
Low fertility Farmland
Medium fertility Very fertile farmland
High fertility: Irrigated farmland
Hills: Hills
Low mountains: Mountains
High Mountains: Alpine peaks
Sparse forest: Open/Sparse woodland
Dense forest: (Dense) Forest
Beach: shrubland

This system would also be a lot easier for campaign map textures, it would also makes it easier for me to merge ground types (rocky and sandy desert) and to have better transitions between for example continental and steppe. It would also work better with my movement system since it would allow more use of the "swamp" ground type (for my movement system it's better to limit movement on many tiles)
« Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 05:38:04 PM by ThatOldSchoolEmoDude »

Muizer

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Re: Mapping Department Organization Thread
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2016, 06:32:49 PM »
Ground types.......

As far as the cultivated land is concerned, I'd personally prefer to distinguish between pasture and arable land. Gradations in actual fertility are largely accounted for by climate zones on the campaign map and terrain related gradations should be taken care of in descr_geography for the battle_maps. So, what remains would be variations due to things like lithology? I doubt that's worth spending 3 groundtypes on (4 if you count wilderness, which you might, as it too tends to be open country).

I would rather not re-purpose the beach. I think it's got some special properties that would make it hard to use elsewhere, thought I cannot be sure as I never tried it.


ahowl11

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Re: Mapping Department Organization Thread
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2016, 08:41:39 PM »
Here are some more resources from Suppanut:

Quote from: Suppanut
for roman road, using this
http://orbis.stanford.edu/

basically, if you open map on ancient trade network, any trade route that not following river would mean that it is ancient road or trail

https://fchknols.wordpress.com/article/roman-europe/
here also contain map of road/trail networks but may be a bit difficult to read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historic_roads
for area outside roman empire in Europe, Via Regia and Via Imperia are important european trail which become road by time of dark age, so you could using them

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Via_Imperii_und_Via_Regia.png/1200px-Via_Imperii_und_Via_Regia.png
https://biblioteczka.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/hg_mitte.jpg
http://www.radozamok.com.ua/images/hp_map/map_en.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Ancient_Levant_routes.png

This is dark age road but i think it still useful
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_E6txa6oBew8/TD3j5DcJ9sI/AAAAAAAAAls/neasrDGZ1WY/s1600/route+kaart+europa.jpg

amber road
http://www.ambergallery.lt/img/pics/gk1enen.jpg
http://www.szlaki-kulturowe.pl/upload/image/mapa_bursztynu.JPG
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/39/be/a1/39bea14d310a72b94d7344300833e995.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Amber_sources_in_Europe.jpg

Royal road of persia
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/achaemenids/images/royal_road_map.gif
http://bighistoryu.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Map_achaemenid_empire_en.png

Central Asia is basically following silkroad

Area of Russian steppe is a bit difficult
but we could follow trade route in dark age and nomad trail before founding of Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muravsky_Trail

in case he confuse about map, try to plotting modern city on the RTR's map to see what route should look like in game

And Xeofox, our expert from Kazakhstan

https://files.slack.com/files-tmb/T1UFBNERX-F2Z5B3F0C-e2cdd071b1/2016-11-07_11-15-46_720.png
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Vrosivs Avgvstvs Rakvs

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Re: Mapping Department Organization Thread
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2016, 08:50:04 PM »
Last link doesn't work for some reason
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DCLXVIMRTRVEBLAKKOKKVLTDCLXVI

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Re: Mapping Department Organization Thread
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2016, 09:16:01 PM »
Quote
As far as the cultivated land is concerned, I'd personally prefer to distinguish between pasture and arable land. Gradations in actual fertility are largely accounted for by climate zones on the campaign map and terrain related gradations should be taken care of in descr_geography for the battle_maps. So, what remains would be variations due to things like lithology? I doubt that's worth spending 3 groundtypes on (4 if you count wilderness, which you might, as it too tends to be open country).



Here's my new suggestion, the problem is that many aspects of ground types are hard-coded so not everything is possible:

Swamp: Wilderness (this would be used for sandy deserts when used for the desert climates or badlands in combination with semi-arid climates) ;hard coded: movement penalty

Wilderness: Rangeland ;hard coded: shares uncultivated strat map texture with low fertility

Low fertility: Pasture  ;hard coded: campaign map texture will change gradually when farm upgrades are build (but you can also use the same texture), farms will appear on the battlemap when farms are build, but those can be removed

Medium fertility: Arable land ;hard coded: campaign map texture will change gradually when farm upgrades are build (but you can also use the same texture), farms will appear on the battlemap when farms are build, but those can be removed

High fertility: Very fertile arable land ;hard coded: campaign map texture will change gradually when farm upgrades are build (but you can also use the same texture), farms will appear on the battlemap when farms are build, but those can be removed

Hills: Hills ;hard coded: bumps appear on the campaign map

Low mountains: Mountains ;hard-coded: impassable

High Mountains: Alpine peaks ;hard-coded: impassable, peaks appear on the campaign map

Sparse forest: Open/Sparse woodland ;hard coded: armies can use it to ambush other armies, sparse trees appear on the campaign map, but can be removed

Dense forest: (Dense) Forest ;hard coded: impassable, dense trees appear on the campaign map, looks weird if the trees are removed

Beach: dense shrubland (we can keep it as coast if you want) ;hard coded: nothing as far as I know



many other things like forest and shrub density, relief, micro ground types, e.t.c. can be edited in descr_geography.db

Quote
I would rather not re-purpose the beach. I think it's got some special properties that would make it hard to use elsewhere, thought I cannot be sure as I never tried it.
RSIII uses it as a desert groundtype and it works well
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 07:47:33 PM by ThatOldSchoolEmoDude »

Muizer

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Re: Mapping Department Organization Thread
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2016, 09:11:13 PM »
 Brief update. Here's an overview of where I'm at. Basically the coastline, the regions, the capital settlements and rivers are on the map. Put a shaded relief map under it.  Currently working on roads, fords and ports. It will be a while until the next update.


Vrosivs Avgvstvs Rakvs

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Re: Mapping Department Organization Thread
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2016, 09:26:04 PM »
Outstanding job mate, this looks awesome!
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Jubal

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Re: Mapping Department Organization Thread
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2016, 10:59:50 PM »
Is the whole Baltic, half of near Russia, & Scandinavia actually one supermassive region? Looks very dominant on the map (though I guess we're at the number of regions cap whatever that is?)
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