Exilian

Game Design and Project Resources: The Workshops Quarter => Rome - Total Realism => Mods, Maps & Game Add-Ons - The Bazaar => RTR 0.5 Imperial Campaign => Topic started by: ahowl11 on February 23, 2014, 09:40:35 PM

Title: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: ahowl11 on February 23, 2014, 09:40:35 PM
Here we will conduct research for the Steppe cultures. xeofox will be in charge of this thread.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 23, 2014, 09:55:17 PM
Hello comrades!
Grateful to you for what I in your team .
My name is Mikhail. I come from Kazakhstan. I'm 30 years old. More than 12 years working researcher at the Institute of Archaeology of the Republic Kazakhstan. initial specialization in historical geography. Next time i was the methodist new technologies in archeology. Have scientific articles on various monuments as well as GIS and 3D technology. Worked on the excavation of various monuments of antiquity and the Middle Ages. Also worked with UNESCO grant. Kazakhstan, in Pakistan has worked with the monuments of the Bronze Age, in Maldavia - cucuteni culture, China, Kyrgyzstan, Russia. Familiar with the culture Massagetae, Wusuns, Mongol, and Timurids. Not much knowledge and little experience in the Sarmatian and Huns monuments. Good knowledge with the geography - territory of monuments from the Caspian Sea to China.
Ready to help for this project with the Massagets and tribes from Caspian sea until China.

E-mail: xeofox@mail.ru
Steam: xeofox a.k.a. Sakarauaka
Skype: Sakarauaka
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/xeofox
Timezone: UTC/GMT +6 Astana, Novosibirsk
Mods: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?630643-Pulchra-mors-%283D-explosion%29&highlight=pulchra
My site: savromat.kz

P.S.: Sorry for bad english
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on February 23, 2014, 11:11:58 PM
Wow, very impressive. You'll no doubt be a valuable member for the team.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: comrade_general on February 24, 2014, 12:20:38 AM
Quote from: xeofox on February 23, 2014, 09:55:17 PM
Hello comrades!
Hello! ;)

Welcome!
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Cuddly Khan on February 24, 2014, 09:00:25 AM
The Steppes call me back! If I played this game I know what race I'd be. ;)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Jubal on February 24, 2014, 11:09:19 AM
Hi xeofox - I'm a second year history undergrad at Cambridge myself, the more historians the merrier :)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 24, 2014, 03:46:07 PM
Hi everyone! Hi Jubal! I would like to discuss with you about historical sources and modern (archaeologycal) view.
The first is map ...
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 24, 2014, 03:59:38 PM
It is commonly accepted map Saka tribes. (I apologize for not quite correct translation).
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/24/a6r3t.jpg)
However, archaeological situations - other...
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Mausolos of Caria on February 24, 2014, 04:07:20 PM
Welcome on here, xeofox, you have a very impressive CV!  :)

So Arimaspi is actually a proper name for a Saka tribe? I mean, even Herodotus was doubtful about their existence and described them as one-eyed riders who fight with griffins for Gold  ;D
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 24, 2014, 04:08:30 PM
archaeologists actually do not distinguish between tribes (for us it's good for mod). Apply it on the facts and not the truth). Actually allocated separate arimaspi and tigrahauda (territories with burials). However, traces haomavargi (rare, but ...) are found everywhere. Communities accepted name (archaeologists) name or Saki or Saka tribes or Saka-Massagetan tribes (the point of view of Western Europe). Other data only Unconfirmed historical data!
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 24, 2014, 04:12:29 PM
HI  Mausolos of Caria! This kind of culture, which is equivalent to the Central Asian scientists Saks (if you honestly I do not much believe it, but I am young to prove that either)  :'(

and I like your knowledge of griffins ;)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Jubal on February 24, 2014, 04:21:04 PM
Griffins (or gryphons, which is the spelling I've always preferred for some reason) are pretty awesome :)

I'm wondering which library round here would be best to look any of this up... the UL probably, but that takes ages to find things in. I can take a look for some English-language papers in journals that might help, though I'll have to give you guys noted summaries rather than sending round the actual paper as journals are very touchy about copyrights.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Mausolos of Caria on February 24, 2014, 04:28:49 PM
Hehe okay then, I'm sure you'll do the Saka factions very well.

Yeah I like Herodotus' odd stories  ;D I'm also a historical adviser for this mod and will finish my Masters at an university in Germany this year  ;)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 24, 2014, 04:29:20 PM
I would like to offer this (if it is a simple one) option territories. Glad to hear your suggestions and criticism;)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/24/2sSl7.jpg)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Jubal on February 24, 2014, 04:31:09 PM
Which rivers are you using as the upper/lower bound for the Saka-Massagetan region?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 24, 2014, 04:35:30 PM
syrdaria and amurdaria ... River as difficult for the border (in the game) and CONTINGENT regions. Real borders do not exist for the nomads.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 24, 2014, 04:36:41 PM
Massagetan monuments there and Ustiurt (Eastern Caspian)
...mixed with Sarmatian monuments
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: ahowl11 on February 24, 2014, 06:27:31 PM
I'm liking the knowledge that you are providing us! It will be very useful!
Did the Massagetae and Saka tribes raid the Seleucid and Bactrian settlements a lot?
Also what about the Parni and Dahae?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 24, 2014, 06:36:46 PM

http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/25/H8hon.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/25/H8hon.jpg)
Map of Kazakhstan. The early iron age. (Great Atlas of Kazakstan) for the first time on the Internet.
Settlements of Saka period marked by green color. (...аnd after Saka and Sarmatians will try the Dahae, Parni- If they are in the game. )
   
        
dahi formed Saka's Union of tribes. If everything is simplified (in our mod), it be under the criterion of "saka tribes" or "Saka -massagetskie tribes".
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: ahowl11 on February 24, 2014, 06:37:42 PM
Parni will be a main faction since they will be the Parthians.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 24, 2014, 06:48:47 PM
   
If we choose a more complicated mod version, then we can divide the tribes and unions of Sakas  on the mod map.
Let's make a list of the tribes in the steppes of Central Asia for our mod.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 24, 2014, 08:31:18 PM
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/aNlVB.jpg)
Eurasia in the middle of the 2nd century BC



(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/RYVbc.jpg)
*Parthia III bc
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 25, 2014, 12:16:28 PM
 Map from the book "Treasures of the Usturt and Mangistau" 2007. market by red  monuments list (#12-23  (V-II bc)) of the early iron age ("strange", barrows and sanctuary) but no settlements. Purple is insufficiently known area.


(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/sgDpk.jpg)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Mausolos of Caria on February 25, 2014, 02:42:17 PM
Some good resources there... maybe you can add some comments to the maps in Cyrillic? While I can read it thanks to having had many years of Ancient Greek in school and Russian classmates, ahowl will probably sitting at home scratching his head  :P

And note that I mean ''read'', not ''understand'' :D But on a map like that it is useful enough to be able to read ''Choresm'' on it for example.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 25, 2014, 03:51:33 PM
Ok. The map will do in the Latin alphabet.  ;)
Let's get with needed tribes. What we need from a    
scenario of companies. For example: Parni from dahae will attack Parthia?! What interests us in the chronology in this region?
1. Dahae (as the basis of the Parni)?!
2. Parni (war with Parthia)?!
3. ...

Let's discuss. After that we will be able to make the border more clearly (but the nomads do not have clear boundaries :) )
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 25, 2014, 04:05:36 PM
or ... Suggest making the event table Saka-Massagetae, Dahae, Parni. And from this table insert in the scenario (for example Parphia)  the most important events. after that ...games map  ;)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 25, 2014, 05:37:44 PM
maps from book "AN HISTORICAL ATLAS OF CENTRAL ASIA" by YURI BREGEL
BRILL LEIDEN •BOSTON 2003

(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/25/XU6O.jpg)
to massagetae we surely can use two settlements 36 and 40


(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/25/td4u.jpg)

(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/25/mjBzc.jpg)

(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/25/uBGkK.jpg)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 26, 2014, 01:06:59 PM
Lets review several variants for maps:
The first variant is the most simple:
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/qYsD.jpg)
Here are all merged into a single border Saka with the massagetae.
Dahae separately (although consisted of the same Saka and massagetae).

the second variant:
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/dGX.jpg)   оr   (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/M2Qes.jpg)
Here the massagetae were separated border

    
and the third variant (difficult, but closer to the historical):
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/zKXxA.jpg)
Wusun in the middle of the 2 century BC, from the East and seeking to seize territory (modern name Zhetysu)


*We can make a small area of the parni in southern borders of Dahae. Or whether the Dahae in the time attack will be called the Parni province (for example, 247 BC)


    
In my opinion: this variant is optimized for games
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/b4uLj.jpg)


*Oops, mistake. "sarmarian" read as "sarmaTians"
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 26, 2014, 02:31:19 PM
As mentioned earlier: it is difficult to draw boundaries of nomadic tribes.  it is depending on the features of the company.
Politics of Saka, Dahae Parni, Massagetae, must be peaceful, there may be minor skirmishes. With the Sarmatians, neutral relations, minor border skirmishes. Small forays into Parthia, Bactria.
Two serious:
Dahae (Parni) doing battle on Parthia (middle of 3 century BC)
Wusun (if they are will be in the game) then in the middle of the 2 century BC they appear on East land and resistant Saka grip.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: ahowl11 on February 26, 2014, 04:49:24 PM
Sarmatians will be their own faction, Parni will be the Parthians and be their own faction. Massagetes and Saka will be represented by the Independent Peoples. We can have Parthia start out at war with them and they would need to subdue the Dahae before attacking the Seleucid Empire
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 26, 2014, 04:57:24 PM
and so ... the second map border version is closer?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on February 26, 2014, 04:59:18 PM
This will be the map borders:
(http://gyazo.com/9aab2e9f72032394e71cea8cc08fab50.png)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 26, 2014, 05:09:43 PM
OMG! There is no place for Sakas and Wusuns. Only the Sarmatians, dahae and part of massagetae.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 26, 2014, 05:21:32 PM
well then like this:
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/OGpa.jpg)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: ahowl11 on February 26, 2014, 06:00:42 PM
The Saka and Wusun can be simulated by invasions and scripted armies
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: b257 on February 26, 2014, 06:08:47 PM
Quote from: ahowl11 on February 26, 2014, 06:00:42 PM
The Saka and Wusun can be simulated by invasions and scripted armies

The BI horde feature will be ideal for this :).
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 26, 2014, 06:40:47 PM
ok. One more (cuted) variant.
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/0ojEi.jpg)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: ahowl11 on February 26, 2014, 06:46:21 PM
Okay and you said the Parthians need to be fighting the Dahae t this point?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 26, 2014, 06:52:37 PM
All borders are conditional. Dahae can be cuted, you can cut the Sarmatians also. Saka and Masagetae you can mix it.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 26, 2014, 07:19:54 PM
Massagetae not distinguishable by culture and arms from Sakas. Dahae is a Union nomads (saka and massagetae).  Parni from Union Dahae! They are nomadic people. Based on historical sources, everything is relative. The framework can be drawn according to historical sources, which are different  and uncertain.
waiting for your suggestions and criticisms!
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: ahowl11 on February 26, 2014, 07:21:54 PM
Didn't the Parni split from the Dahae though? We have to have the Parthians so we can't call them the Dahae
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 26, 2014, 07:31:37 PM
If the mod starts in the 3rd century BC the Parni appear from the Dahae and go to Northern Parthia.
approximately 250-240 BCE
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: ahowl11 on February 26, 2014, 07:48:36 PM
The mod begins in 280 BC. What settlements should the Parthians have?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 26, 2014, 08:05:27 PM
I know of Antioch and Nisa (can be), ((
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 26, 2014, 10:27:46 PM
Map of archaeological cultures 4-3 centuries b.c.
Fully translate difficult but most necessary for you i will translate.
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/PI249.jpg)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 27, 2014, 12:03:23 PM
Map based on historical data and map archaeological cultures.
The proposed variants for the cities of really existing points.

(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/pDvts.jpg)



1. the imaginary settlement of Kyzyl-Uick (there was real place -actually a sanctuary) (suggest to leave the title residential settlement of Dahae)
2. the ruins of the settlement with modern name Igdi-Kala (suggest keep in accordance with title "Igdi" or just settlement of Dahae)
3. the ruins of the settlement with the name Kalalygyr (suggest keep in accordance with the name "Lygyr")
4. the ruins of the huge city with the modern name of Toprak-Kala capital of Khwarazm (suggest keep in accordance with title "Toprak") NB: City of Kiat cannot be capital of Khorezm before III century AD
5. the ruins of the huge city with the modern name Chiric-rabad (suggest keep in accordance with title "Chiric") suggest making capital of the Saka or Massagetian
6. the ruins of the settlement with the name Kokayaz (suggest leaving the name "Saka or Masagetian settlement")
7. the ruins of the settlement with the name Zhana-korgan (suggest  the name just "Saka or Massagetian settlement")


other cities:
8. Raga
9. Gekatompil
10. Nisa
11. Navkata
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 27, 2014, 12:05:55 PM
 
Please questions.

Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 27, 2014, 12:25:42 PM
?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on February 27, 2014, 12:32:59 PM
Did that huge cities had stone walls?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 27, 2014, 12:38:16 PM
Point 1 ( imaginary) and 2 could have walls but did not have walls of stone
3-5 points ( had huge wall but wall of mud brick)
6-7 points (had nothing but could adobe)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on February 27, 2014, 12:41:06 PM
Then maybe we should retexture the stone wall to a mud brick wall for the steppe factions.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 27, 2014, 12:50:25 PM
Good idea with wall textures of cities!
One more thing ... in fact...
All nomads camps do not have walls! Several carts and yurts (for beauty)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 27, 2014, 01:19:10 PM
photos made from the air.

Toprak-kala
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/TACd3.jpg)
reconctrucion model of Toprak-kala
(http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000017/pic/st126_01.jpg)



Chiric-Rabad
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/rdW1O.jpg)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on February 27, 2014, 01:26:28 PM
Maybe you can find some examples of the mud brick walls made by the steppe people?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 27, 2014, 01:50:47 PM
From my collection (Dzhety-Asars Cities. near Chiric-rabad,  a good preservation, dating 2 BC, -4 AD ):

http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/dKqB.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/dKqB.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/aFQ3U.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/aFQ3U.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/dzfmX.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/dzfmX.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/oO0ia.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/oO0ia.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/2BANf.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/2BANf.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/uPWD.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/uPWD.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/hvtYi.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/hvtYi.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/iYT2j.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/iYT2j.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/kieT0.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/kieT0.jpg)

other samples from the internets:


monuments of ancient Khwarazm
(http://bukharainfo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/kala2.jpg)
(http://bukharainfo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/kala6.jpg)
(http://bukharainfo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/kala1.jpg)
(http://bukharainfo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/kala3.jpg)



chiric-rabad
(http://kino.iea.ras.ru/index.php?go=Gallery&file=thumb&id=21)
(http://www.bnews.kz/picture/380/news/f1f41e11e700bea65e36609ce582dc1b.jpg)
(http://www.bnews.kz/picture/380/news/ea086ffee53d048c6b6b85ed9920fb48.jpg)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on February 27, 2014, 03:02:28 PM
Great.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 27, 2014, 05:34:02 PM
Urban architecture can be like European, but the texture can be the clay. Settlements without walls.
About Saki and dahah ...It's hard to speculate, because life has been nomadic.

Here's an example similar to the Saka-Scythian architecture:
fabric, skins, wood, clay ...

(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/7bm1N.jpg)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 27, 2014, 05:51:53 PM
Variants of nomadic cities on the map
My works ( images used for ROMA SURRECTUM II without my permission)


(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/a6IuN.jpg)

(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/z3fp.jpg)

(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/3vKay.jpg)

Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on February 27, 2014, 06:00:03 PM
Very nice work. ;)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 27, 2014, 06:02:15 PM
Thanks :)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Mausolos of Caria on February 27, 2014, 07:04:49 PM
Ah wow, that looks brilliant! If we could also do models of the bigger towns with those mudbricks, then we've got very diverse models and every siege battle against nomadic tribes will be an unique experience!  :)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 27, 2014, 07:30:50 PM
If our team will make a list of nomadic structuries, I would have started. But strictly in the 3DS format((
What do you think?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on February 27, 2014, 07:55:30 PM
Would you be able of making the strat map models for the steppe factions?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 27, 2014, 08:05:09 PM
... and not only! Individual rooms and structures. For example, several variants of Yurts and carts for the camps.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on February 27, 2014, 08:12:22 PM
Wonderful! Then maybe you should start by making the nomadic settlements strat map models and then the characters. The remainder (nomadic buildings and alike) can come next, since it requires more work.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 27, 2014, 09:19:25 PM
Vаriant of stages Saka and Dahae cities:
1)  Yurts and Simple adobe buildings (the wooden walls are not real)
2) more buildings ,  the yurt outside of village
... after that, build walls (mud brick), yurts disappear.
Next architecture similar to Parthia (not symbols, no blue stripes on the buildings. Walls grow all the same adobes. And central square made of baked bricks
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Mausolos of Caria on February 27, 2014, 10:08:59 PM
That sounds good!

Not on the Steppe people, but say, do you also have knowledge on the Bosporan Empire, per chance? It seems most work on it's history, including it's army, has been done by Russian archaeologists and our current unit roster for them is a tad speculative.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 27, 2014, 10:22:00 PM
I'll try to find something. Write a personal message.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on February 27, 2014, 10:24:54 PM
Ok then, for strat map models:
1st stage: Camp (yurts and simple adobe buildings);
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/a6IuN.jpg)
2nd stage: Village (more buildings; and more elaborate ones?);
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/a6IuN.jpg)Bigger with wooden houses.
3rd stage: Town (buildings surrounded by a round mud brick wall, no more yurts; no towers in the walls?);
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/3vKay.jpg)
4th stage: City (squared city surrounded by a towered mud brick wall).
(http://gyazo.com/1c06e9d40e8e462e96d48b6b05ff2ebd.png)
I reckon this will be enough.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 27, 2014, 10:41:26 PM
    
Cool! :D
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on February 27, 2014, 11:05:07 PM
Updated with images given by xeofox.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Mausolos of Caria on February 27, 2014, 11:12:10 PM
@Xeofox Thanks, that's okay ;)

Seems like you are making decent progress here, but I can't see the last picture, Bercor  :P It is not being displayed. And camp and village ought to be the same, yes?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on February 27, 2014, 11:19:03 PM
Try again ;).
Yes, the pictures are the same because I couldn't find another. The difference it's that the village will be bigger and has wooden houses, unlike the camp, composed only by yurts and adobe buildings.
Remember, this are not the final strat map models, only an example.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Mausolos of Caria on February 27, 2014, 11:26:06 PM
It's there now ;)  But on the last page Mikhail put another image for the camp with a wall ;)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on February 27, 2014, 11:51:00 PM
Yes, but that's a castle. It would be better as a steppe fort.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 28, 2014, 12:12:35 AM
Guys, we have a problem! Yurts!
I will make a few choices. We choose the best!
Those on written sources it is sucks! Archaeological data do not exist!  ;)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 28, 2014, 12:19:11 AM
and again return to the map.
i have some idea

(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/pDvts.jpg)

*Khwarazm is small and quiet)). Simplified version: Culture and the army can be a copy of Greco-Bactrian. (the army is weaker, and the city is better)
*Saka we can safely rename to the Massagetae.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: ahowl11 on February 28, 2014, 05:22:35 AM
Great work, this will definitely make the mod unique :)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 28, 2014, 03:14:42 PM
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/28/L0O9G.jpg)

(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/28/PCX1G.jpg)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on February 28, 2014, 03:15:31 PM
That's just amazing. :o
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 28, 2014, 03:28:35 PM
It`s  Scythian yurt from Bosporan. The Scythians relatives of Sakas.
We can use this in the eastern part of the maps ;)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 28, 2014, 03:47:43 PM
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/28/ifqe8.jpg)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: ahowl11 on February 28, 2014, 05:22:48 PM
Wow amazing!
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on February 28, 2014, 07:12:09 PM
Different models of yurts. Used three textures (one for pair).

(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/01/y3j2M.jpg)

(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/01/5oFpY.jpg)

(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/01/RScm1.jpg)


Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 01, 2014, 10:27:45 PM
just a VUE picture!

(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/02/CUOF.png)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 01, 2014, 11:53:59 PM
Amazing as ever.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 02, 2014, 12:10:03 AM
When I will see them on the battlefield or in the settlement, i will be to believe in reincarnation of Sakas!  ;)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 03, 2014, 02:35:27 PM
Analysis of standard RTW models. Typical houses of the steppe nomads can be:
a typical version of the simplest homes for Sarmatians (with wood)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/03/AxIG.jpg)

(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/03/F4C2.jpg)
*most likely not built the Dahае, but if it were built ... because a lot of stone in their region.


Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 03, 2014, 05:06:43 PM
The sanctuary of "Tubenžik2" and "Baskuduk1". Found on the Ustyurt. 4-3 centuries b.c.
Presumably Sarmatian religious sanctuary.
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/03/6LcKf.jpg)

Reconstruction for mod (can be one of the buildings in the Centre of the Sarmatian settlements)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/03/RJBQV.jpg)
* not all agree that this is a Sarmatian building, so we can use it to Dahae also.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 05, 2014, 02:54:46 PM
Experimenting...
(http://gyazo.com/e0b7598cca4ccebac48c37bbac16772b.png)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: ahowl11 on March 05, 2014, 04:28:31 PM
Looking good. What would we use for Barracks, Market, blacksmith etc? Wouldn't everything need to be changed for the culture? Then we would need the customized settlement plan for the culture as well.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 05, 2014, 07:58:39 PM
Dear comrades. It was a lot of mods, but no one has organized the nomads. No one can make the city moved on the map. We can make the illusion! The nomads were few buildings and enough. Temporary Yurt, permanent places of worship this tomb and sanctuary. For features. In the city, will be half of structures and actions.
Sarmatians: won the West and the South, there's a lot of cities did not have to intervene. But Saki and Dahae. We do not know anything about them.
Real construction of the nomads (TOWN):
Dahae. Saki. -Enlarge the  parking place, build a lair, to build the sanctuary, area councils.
Not built and the actions menu in TOWN: Find the winter parking, find (or designate) blacksmith, to drive livestock (horses, sheep, goats).
After each activity will be added (one simple yurt).
Strategy: If the nomads super powerful archers, with such a culture, when taking someone else's town, not the right to demolish enemy city (it is closer to reality), only repaired.
Not ready built: paddock for animals (or animal place) and the central square (or the area councils). Saky Sanctuary (in the form it is large mound)
If possible, capture the city of Saks and Dahae impossible. The only way to win is to destroy all enemy units.
Plus add decorations (trampled road, carts)
The only city main by sakskyi was CHIRIK-RABAD (in the center of the mound, around the walls and the remains of the unknown buildings). The CHIGU-CHEN who is not included in our map. The rest of the city, (not built ) occupied.
Proposal  to your strict Court  .
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 05, 2014, 08:01:20 PM
If not, then we mix with Parthian architecture the urban nomads
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 05, 2014, 08:02:36 PM
    
the most difficult thing I call it city nomads or urban nomads  ;D
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 06, 2014, 12:09:25 AM
It is a variant of urbanization ( Sakas or Dahae before will begin to build the city, army a lot but only horse archers)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/JEqZj.jpg)

it is for example/ Please discuss, correct!
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: ahowl11 on March 06, 2014, 01:25:51 AM
Hmm we will definitely need to brainstorm for this
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 06, 2014, 10:54:24 AM
The sanctuary of the nomads (three levels).
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/06/BYGC9.jpg)

*I offer three levels of construction. Saka (or massagetae) is a structure in the form of mound (kurgan). These nomads of the great number of mounds with menhirs, stone laying out, stone fences, etc. This mound of a fictional, but is best suited to the concept of "different levels of urban construction "
Мound (kurgan) were mainly for burials, but not soo lot of mounds of unknown why built.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: ahowl11 on March 06, 2014, 11:18:47 PM
Looking good. What else needs to be made?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 06, 2014, 11:25:37 PM
If a simple transition from nomadism to urbanization. We will place this in the town and refugee camps. I think that's all in structure of the buildings and the economy! But ready to listen to your opinion!
Economy in the structure of the game, it's something terrible for me. I think you can make good suggestions.

*the result tables is a yurts at dahae and Saka (massagetae) on the first level, there are a few buildings (Parthian arch) in second level. And the sanctuary of strictly tribe. It is ilusion of changing from nomadism to urbanisation.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 07, 2014, 08:36:34 AM
Interesting fact (for the economy or just for fun  ;D ). Saki-haomavarga towards making Haoma. For many years, was going to dispute what is Haoma. There were two versions: marijuana and ephedra? There are a few Saks vessels with an image of ephedra. However, but the remains of marijuana in separate containers (up North).
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 07, 2014, 09:09:57 AM
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/hP0um.jpg)                      An interesting facts!

1.An interesting fact about the Sarmatians. In one of the tombs of Sarmatian burial ground KYRYKOBA (not far from the city of Uralsk, Kazakhstan). Next to the remains of Sarmatian Warrior found pottery- Egyptian Scarabs )

2.Sakае smoked (or (and) eat) marijuana.

3.There are several Saka graves where the warior was buried with a dog.

4.The Saka and Sarmatians were animal style in art. On the northern boundary of the land of nomads found dumping (permafrost) with tattoos animal style.

Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 07, 2014, 09:14:57 AM
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/hP0um.jpg)                                  Historical sources
Sakae
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sarmarian
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dahae
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 07, 2014, 09:57:16 AM
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/hP0um.jpg)                                          The clothing of the nomads.
in TWR mods there are tribes of nomads . The very best, they are shown in the EB1.
Rome surectum made a unique horse with horns. It is very beautiful, but the bug is that it is sporadic (solitary)and are only suitable for the generals of the army.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sarmatians
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 07, 2014, 09:59:37 AM
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/hP0um.jpg)                                          Weapons

Bows
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Cases for bow(Горит)  and quivers
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Acinaces
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Shields
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 07, 2014, 10:00:25 AM
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/hP0um.jpg)                                            misc

Sakae gold
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

library
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 07, 2014, 12:40:26 PM
yurts for leader (fictional)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/sdqH.jpg)

(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/dhxpE.jpg)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 07, 2014, 01:03:49 PM
Great! I'll probably use the first example.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: ahowl11 on March 07, 2014, 04:32:45 PM
We are going to have so much information when we start implementing the nomad culture :)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 07, 2014, 05:50:47 PM
I reckon this is a pretty acceptable nomad camp stratmap model:
(http://gyazo.com/31b959fb8e081be6757aca2ccb70fc62.png)
No?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 07, 2014, 05:55:55 PM
I think it will be great!  :D
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: The Sloth on March 07, 2014, 07:06:36 PM
Quote from: xeofox on March 06, 2014, 12:09:25 AM
It is a variant of urbanization ( Sakas or Dahae before will begin to build the city, army a lot but only horse archers)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/JEqZj.jpg)

it is for example/ Please discuss, correct!

Not sure I understand this.
 
"sanctuary"  --> temples?
"colltection of natural reserves" --> hunting and gathering?
"army" --> barracks?
"1,2,3,4,5" --> city levels?

It would be best to keep the structure of the tech tree as it is, but since nomads will be their own culture, descriptions, effects, icons and images of buildings can be anything we want them to be. I'm sure there are possibilities for customization.

For instance, hunting grounds and pastures make good nomadic "farms".
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Jubal on March 07, 2014, 07:18:26 PM
I think that's suggesting a similar tech tree structure, but making buildable "actions" rather than the standard buildings.  :)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 07, 2014, 07:36:37 PM
"sanctuary"  --> temples? yes
"colltection of natural reserves" --> hunting and gathering? yes (for winter)
"army" --> barracks? no. I mean differences from Parthia. another army
"1,2,3,4,5" --> city levels? yes

the biggest problem is  nomads havent buildings. If they have built it is not nomads. If the first city levels are not standard then we will give the illusion of urbanization of nomadic tribes.

I think that's suggesting a similar tech tree structure, but making buildable "actions" rather than the standard buildings.
Yes, the building will be constructed (for example another simple yurt or a simple building (unremarkable)). BUT on the menu will be referred to as actions.

*the image of structures level in dropbox for you correction and you fantasy (nomad_economy.psd)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 10, 2014, 02:02:50 PM
Success! After many tribulations, and with the indispensable help of Jarlaxe, I managed to implement xeofox's buildings in the stratmap.
Behold, the nomadic settlement of Aleria: :P
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Bear in mind that this is not the final version, and improvements are to be expected.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: ahowl11 on March 10, 2014, 05:07:31 PM
Looking good! Try talking Jarlaxe into joining us if he can. He said he would but he is busy a few months ago. Maybe something has changed?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 11, 2014, 05:25:06 PM
Here's the final version of the nomad camp stratmap model:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Any complaints?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 11, 2014, 06:19:44 PM
How it looks ingame:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Alavaria on March 11, 2014, 07:32:17 PM
Any chance it could have grass under it?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 11, 2014, 07:36:10 PM
Of course. :)

I'm just using the current map to show off.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 13, 2014, 06:17:03 PM
(http://i.gyazo.com/07ca7e5a842809c382d3b137562f7aa6.png)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Tekowiāt on March 14, 2014, 06:12:23 AM
Good stuff.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 18, 2014, 07:54:16 PM
Nomad Town:
(http://i.gyazo.com/0207e866f432b44f30ffab409ea2af59.png)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 18, 2014, 08:48:58 PM
the optimal design of the city! well made!  :o
In the next level of town a yurts will disappear! :-\
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 18, 2014, 08:52:28 PM
I was thinking of keeping them, but outside the city walls, similar to what Europa Barbarorum's team is going to do:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img854/7987/largecity.jpg)
What do you think?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 18, 2014, 08:59:54 PM
Nice!  :)  but the yurts as modern (or medieval)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 18, 2014, 09:03:13 PM
I'll be using your yurts, not theirs. :P
Just posted the pic to roughly demonstrate how it looks.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 18, 2014, 09:05:55 PM
Good!
but... maybe we make for Sarmatians settlements (separately) yurts-like medieval (and modern)?  ;D
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 18, 2014, 09:13:23 PM
I don't think it's possible to have two different models of settlements of the same tier in the same culture (at least if it isn't a custom settlement). What I could do, if you make some "modern" yurts, is to use them in the nomadic large town and city, instead of the current ones.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 18, 2014, 09:22:22 PM
Then maybe drop the sanctuary from the stratmap? A unified system for Sakas, Dahae. The differences will be only inside of the city.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 18, 2014, 09:25:21 PM
Yeah, the sanctuary won't be present in the next tiers.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 18, 2014, 09:36:44 PM
If we do not make a special sanctuary for saka, the mound (for strat map), the better at any tier (stratmap) sanctuary (of all nomads) does not show. Only inside of town.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 18, 2014, 11:35:05 PM
Why, I don't think we need to be so historical that we can't have a Dahae sanctuary in the nomadic settlements. Besides, what do I put in the center, if not the sanctuary?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 19, 2014, 01:06:46 AM
Kurgan for Sakas or void for sakas.
...or void for all nomads- it is the most simplified history.
the sanctuary of the Ustyurt single cases. And the Sakas mounds- thousands.

High levels of the cities of the steppe nomads- it's all fiction, falsification! We can show the soldiers and the sanctuary. :)

(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/06/BYGC9.jpg)

Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 19, 2014, 01:10:30 AM
Ok. Then should I put the that mound in the middle of the settlement?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 19, 2014, 01:19:08 AM
Quote from: Bercor on March 18, 2014, 11:35:05 PM
...I don't think we need to be so historical...
"Archaeology is the search for fact ... not truth..." I.J.

my other tasks I can't see
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 19, 2014, 01:21:21 AM
Quote from: Bercor on March 19, 2014, 01:10:30 AM
Ok. Then should I put the that mound in the middle of the settlement?
...mound or nothing (for sakas)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 19, 2014, 01:26:22 AM
My question is: can the mound be used for the generic nomad settlement strat map model (saka, sauromatae, dahae, parni, etc)?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 19, 2014, 01:36:27 AM
It is much easier ... Yes you Can! Because the mounds (kurgan) were all. A stone sanctuary  at territory where we expect dahae.
Keeping away from the facts. Simplifying, the kurgan can be in a mid sarmatian settl.  :(
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 19, 2014, 01:39:20 AM
Very well, I'll change that tomorrow.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 20, 2014, 11:45:52 PM
Nomad Large Town
(http://i.gyazo.com/5568edcb7ae2acfcba10a2bfc88ce70e.png)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 22, 2014, 11:33:23 PM
Wooden wall? We are talking about adobe?
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Bercor on March 22, 2014, 11:53:34 PM
Yes, adobe walls for the nomad city, fourth and final tier, and not the nomad large town.
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: xeofox on March 23, 2014, 08:11:26 AM
Your choice!  :)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Jubal on March 23, 2014, 02:41:53 PM
I like the look of all this a lot  :)
Title: Re: History/Research: The Peoples of the Steppe
Post by: Mausolos of Caria on March 27, 2014, 01:21:42 PM
Hey xeofox  :) ,

since you are in charge of all the Steppe people I guess you would also have knowledge on their troops? I read that Cataphracts were first used by the Sakae and Achaemenids, before the Parthians and Hellenistic kingdoms adopted them. My exact question would be, wether you know around which time Parthia, the Seleucids and Armenia adopted the Cataphracts? Perhaps the Seleucids already inherited some from the Persians? The Parthians only seem to have adopted them later, though, in the late 3rd century BC?