Exilian

Art, Writing, and Learning: The Clerisy Quarter => History, Science, and Interesting Information - The Great Library => Topic started by: Clockwork on July 15, 2013, 11:53:11 PM

Title: Human heights over time
Post by: Clockwork on July 15, 2013, 11:53:11 PM
People have grown a lot taller since ye olde days of pirates, I'm by no means any sort of voice on this but from what I've read/heard, people are genetically developing to grow taller and live longer. By 2400 it's predicted that the predeterminded lifespan will be roughly 130 years I think, no links as this is from memory.

Split from a discussion over whether 5'6" Edward Teach was a "giant" for his time or not, in the badass figures thread - JB
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Scarlet on July 16, 2013, 12:15:38 AM
I think realistically, it's due to improvements in medicine, hygiene and nutrition.. I doubt that it is genetic.. That would require a lot of people's DNA to be mutating in the same way over many genenrations..? Not that I know, of course, it just seems unlikely.. Where did you read this? I want to read ze research, sounds interesting.. :)
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Phoenixguard09 on July 16, 2013, 01:38:10 AM
Interestingly enough, the scientific community tends to agree that humanity is "evolving" (if you wish to use the word) at a slower rate now than ever before.

That was in a school biology textbook, so make of it what you will. :P
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Clockwork on July 16, 2013, 03:11:33 AM
I can't find it at the moment, though I believe it was something to do with a trend in reducing metabolic rates and studies done across groups of families that are almost exclusively long lived, there was a genetic factor but the result was inconclusive due to the wide variety of lifestyle choices that can impact health and damage genes. However there is a gene (or something, like I said i have little idea what any of this means) that shortens as your life goes on until you die which gives an estimation of your natural lifespan. I'll try to find that tomorrow, tired now.

I'll probably also move this to a science thread, but again, tomorrow.

EDIT:  http://www.pnas.org/content/98/18/10505.short (http://www.pnas.org/content/98/18/10505.short) Not exactly what I was looking for but you may be able to find more from this link. The date is 2001, further research has been done since then.
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Jubal on July 16, 2013, 10:26:48 AM
Height is mostly correlated with nutrition IIRC. Apparently for an English male in the early C18th average height would have been c. 5ft4/5, so 5ft6 might have been above average but certainly wouldn't have been giant. Also, the early C18 was a low point for height; better nutrition and a more varied diet in the middle ages meant that a medieval man would likely have averaged 5ft8.

There is a small amount of selective pressure in favour of tall males I suspect simply because the majority of women prefer taller mates, but it's not going to wipe out short people in a hurry.  :)
Title: Re: Most Badass Figures of History
Post by: Phoenixguard09 on July 16, 2013, 10:31:20 AM
We're living proof of that Jub. :P

Although I'm interested to note that at 5'9", I'd be considered rather tall. And my 6' friend would probably be lynched as some sort of abnormally tall demonic entity.
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Phoenixguard09 on July 16, 2013, 10:38:59 AM
Hehe good to see this is in another thread. :P
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Scarlet on July 16, 2013, 10:53:57 AM
:O A new thread! The other one had gone slightly off topic :P

Now.. *beginsreadingwhatwillinevitablyreadasnonsense*
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Jubal on July 16, 2013, 11:22:08 AM
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/40267840?uid=3738032&uid=2134&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21102537647577

The abstract of the above paper is my data source btw.
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: comrade_general on July 16, 2013, 02:02:05 PM
I'm 6' 1.5", or 186.7 cm to you Britons, which means I am far more advanced than the lot of you! ;D
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Jubal on July 16, 2013, 02:25:17 PM
Actually we still measure human height in feet and inches generally.  :P Also, argh, it's a giant! Flee, flee!
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Lady Grey on July 16, 2013, 03:06:23 PM
I'm only 5'2" ish... SotK's like, 6'3" xD
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Lady Grey on July 16, 2013, 03:08:07 PM
On this topic... Did anyone here a few years ago that scientists think we might be evolving into two groups of the tall and the short? I'll try and find an article somewhere about it... 
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: comrade_general on July 16, 2013, 03:10:36 PM
Quote from: Mother of Dragons on July 16, 2013, 03:06:23 PM
SotK's like, 6'3" xD
Spoiler
(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/004/077/Raisins_Face.jpg)
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Son of the King on July 16, 2013, 03:35:42 PM
You are all small :D
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: comrade_general on July 16, 2013, 06:23:34 PM
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Scarlet on July 16, 2013, 06:24:07 PM
That is impressively tall.. Are the rest of your family similarly so?

I'm 5' 6.5" I think.
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Lady Grey on July 16, 2013, 06:32:03 PM
Quote from: Son of the King on July 16, 2013, 03:35:42 PM
You are all small :D

Nope, you are a giant. :P
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Son of the King on July 16, 2013, 06:35:08 PM
Quote from: Scarlet on July 16, 2013, 06:24:07 PM
That is impressively tall.. Are the rest of your family similarly so?

Not really... my parents are both average-ish height and Othko and Tee are also pretty normal height I think.

Having said that, I was one of the smallest in my class until halfway through high school.

Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Clockwork on July 16, 2013, 09:51:32 PM
I'm 6' 0" my dad is the shortest of his siblings (including my aunt) at 5' 10" and I have an uncle that is 6' 4". Both my brothers should be taller then me when they stop growing and my sister is 5' 11".
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Lady Grey on July 16, 2013, 09:54:16 PM
^ tall family :O both me and my Mum are quite short, about the same height, my brother and Dad seem average though.
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: comrade_general on July 17, 2013, 01:42:45 AM
But yes, as we learned from the Family Guy clip people are taller than they used to be. Anyone have their own theories as to why? Is it simply like Jubal said in that women prefer taller mates (see SotK and MoD) ;) or is it something more cosmic? i.e. the universe is expanding so we've stretched a little bit. :P
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Phoenixguard09 on July 17, 2013, 06:27:46 AM
My immediate family's short on both sides. I have a tall cousin (6' 2") and three tall uncles (somewhere in the 6' vicinity) but in this household I'm the tallest, although I only overtook my father in the last month or so.

That being said, I was one of the shortest people in my class at school for many years. I was average height until about Year 3. I considered 5'6" in Year 11 to be a major accomplishment. :P

My brother's only sevenish at the moment, but he will be taller than me in time, I am sure.

Ah well. :P
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Scarlet on July 17, 2013, 07:45:26 AM
^ I like this "we've stretched a bit" theory :D Clearly the answer to our problems!
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Lady Grey on July 17, 2013, 08:17:02 AM
The expanding universe clearly left me behind... :P
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Jubal on July 17, 2013, 09:45:59 PM
As I said above, the most plausible theory seems to be that it's mainly dictated by nutrition.

So trends in the past have included a drop from the Middle Ages to the late C18th, then a rise to the present; there was also apparently a big drop at the advent of grain-based agriculture as people started eating a lot less meat.
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Scarlet on July 17, 2013, 10:03:25 PM
That would also make sense with the whole you-need-protein-to-live-and-grow thang :P
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Clockwork on July 17, 2013, 11:59:56 PM
I don't wholly buy it, you see those videos of impoverished people around the world and they don't look short when compared with the reporter/presenter. And these would be peoples that have been malnourished for generations. But I do understand the whole protein thing and realise it probably is the most likely cause.
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Jubal on July 18, 2013, 12:04:17 AM
Quote from: Rob on July 17, 2013, 11:59:56 PM
I don't wholly buy it, you see those videos of impoverished people around the world and they don't look short when compared with the reporter/presenter. And these would be peoples that have been malnourished for generations. But I do understand the whole protein thing and realise it probably is the most likely cause.
Actually the data on averages does back it up strongly: South Korean people average a fair bit taller than North Koreans for example. There are of course other genetic factors, but between groups with similar genes certainly height can vary a lot with nutrition and nurture (and height genes probably haven't been changing as radically within the last few thousand years as diet).
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: comrade_general on July 18, 2013, 12:48:57 AM
So really speaking about only 'height' is a little confusing because the reality is that we are getting larger overall. Right?
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Pentagathus on July 18, 2013, 09:33:42 AM
I'm pretty sure the average height in Japan has increased by some ridiculous amount in the last 50 years, presumably due to changes in diet and the decrease in various diseases.
Also I'm a truly fearsome 168cm tall.
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Othko97 on July 18, 2013, 09:53:22 PM
I'm just average, unlike SotK, who can be described as "tall long boy"
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Lady Grey on July 22, 2013, 11:59:17 AM
Long tall boy... :P
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Clockwork on July 22, 2013, 03:34:50 PM
I thought a tall boy was a piece of furniture?
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Silver Wolf on July 22, 2013, 04:10:37 PM
I'm  5' 8".

Which is comically short since Croatian average is 6' 1.2"/186cm (for males at least) and 5' 7"/171cm (female).
Half of my friends are 6' 4" or taller.
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Scarlet on July 22, 2013, 04:15:57 PM
Interesting.. So why are Croatians so tall? o.O What is the standard diet?
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Jubal on July 22, 2013, 04:30:31 PM
I didn't get the impression most people were really tall when I was in Cavtat/Dubrovnik... 5ft8 is still taller than me! :D
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Silver Wolf on July 22, 2013, 04:41:48 PM
Quote from: Scarlet on July 22, 2013, 04:15:57 PM
Interesting.. So why are Croatians so tall? o.O What is the standard diet?

Babies.

Just joking.
There's a lot of variety, and different regions have wildly different cuisine. At least when you're talking about the traditional cuisine. And I can say that we (as a nation) eat a lot of meat.

I believe that this increase in human height over the period of last 100-150 years is in direct correlation with that last fact.
Livestock is now treated with all kinds of growth hormones and chemicals which leads to the fact that at least some of those chemicals must remain trapped in our bodies.
That's simply biological magnification.
It takes place in every food chain which is polluted by substances which are either harmful or not normally found in natural environment.

Just take a look at average height of people in India or most of China.
They eat way less meat than Europeans or Americans because of their tradition, religion or other reasons. That might be the reason why their average height is so much lower than ours.

Not excluding the role of genetics.
Which is huge.
I'm just considering this long term exposure to environmental factors.

Quote from: Jubal on July 22, 2013, 04:30:31 PM
I didn't get the impression most people were really tall when I was in Cavtat/Dubrovnik... 5ft8 is still taller than me! :D

Yes, you are right.
People living on the coast usually aren't as tall as those living on the mainland.

And just to link this to my stream of thought, they don't eat nearly as much meat as we do. They do eat a lot of fish.
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Lady Grey on July 22, 2013, 05:54:53 PM
Quote from: Rob on July 22, 2013, 03:34:50 PM
I thought a tall boy was a piece of furniture?

I get that impression sometimes...

Jokes :P
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: comrade_general on July 22, 2013, 09:39:37 PM
Another wild Family Guy video appears.

Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Silver Wolf on July 22, 2013, 09:43:38 PM
The video reference guy strikes once again.
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Death Nade on August 13, 2013, 02:25:27 PM
I'm over 6'5" I believe, in centimetres I'm 196-198cm tall. This comes from my Dutch heritage :)
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Cuddly Khan on August 13, 2013, 03:12:09 PM
Damn you and we taller-than-me-ness!
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Lady Grey on August 15, 2013, 08:44:35 PM
I feel so small... :P
Title: Re: Human heights over time
Post by: Son of the King on August 21, 2013, 10:13:07 AM
You are so small :P