Here we will conduct research for the Steppe cultures. xeofox will be in charge of this thread.
Hello comrades!
Grateful to you for what I in your team .
My name is Mikhail. I come from Kazakhstan. I'm 30 years old. More than 12 years working researcher at the Institute of Archaeology of the Republic Kazakhstan. initial specialization in historical geography. Next time i was the methodist new technologies in archeology. Have scientific articles on various monuments as well as GIS and 3D technology. Worked on the excavation of various monuments of antiquity and the Middle Ages. Also worked with UNESCO grant. Kazakhstan, in Pakistan has worked with the monuments of the Bronze Age, in Maldavia - cucuteni culture, China, Kyrgyzstan, Russia. Familiar with the culture Massagetae, Wusuns, Mongol, and Timurids. Not much knowledge and little experience in the Sarmatian and Huns monuments. Good knowledge with the geography - territory of monuments from the Caspian Sea to China.
Ready to help for this project with the Massagets and tribes from Caspian sea until China.
E-mail: xeofox@mail.ru
Steam: xeofox a.k.a. Sakarauaka
Skype: Sakarauaka
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/xeofox
Timezone: UTC/GMT +6 Astana, Novosibirsk
Mods: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?630643-Pulchra-mors-%283D-explosion%29&highlight=pulchra
My site: savromat.kz
P.S.: Sorry for bad english
Wow, very impressive. You'll no doubt be a valuable member for the team.
The Steppes call me back! If I played this game I know what race I'd be. ;)
Hi xeofox - I'm a second year history undergrad at Cambridge myself, the more historians the merrier :)
Hi everyone! Hi Jubal! I would like to discuss with you about historical sources and modern (archaeologycal) view.
The first is map ...
It is commonly accepted map Saka tribes. (I apologize for not quite correct translation).
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/24/a6r3t.jpg)
However, archaeological situations - other...
Welcome on here, xeofox, you have a very impressive CV! :)
So Arimaspi is actually a proper name for a Saka tribe? I mean, even Herodotus was doubtful about their existence and described them as one-eyed riders who fight with griffins for Gold ;D
archaeologists actually do not distinguish between tribes (for us it's good for mod). Apply it on the facts and not the truth). Actually allocated separate arimaspi and tigrahauda (territories with burials). However, traces haomavargi (rare, but ...) are found everywhere. Communities accepted name (archaeologists) name or Saki or Saka tribes or Saka-Massagetan tribes (the point of view of Western Europe). Other data only Unconfirmed historical data!
HI Mausolos of Caria! This kind of culture, which is equivalent to the Central Asian scientists Saks (if you honestly I do not much believe it, but I am young to prove that either) :'(
and I like your knowledge of griffins ;)
Griffins (or gryphons, which is the spelling I've always preferred for some reason) are pretty awesome :)
I'm wondering which library round here would be best to look any of this up... the UL probably, but that takes ages to find things in. I can take a look for some English-language papers in journals that might help, though I'll have to give you guys noted summaries rather than sending round the actual paper as journals are very touchy about copyrights.
Hehe okay then, I'm sure you'll do the Saka factions very well.
Yeah I like Herodotus' odd stories ;D I'm also a historical adviser for this mod and will finish my Masters at an university in Germany this year ;)
I would like to offer this (if it is a simple one) option territories. Glad to hear your suggestions and criticism;)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/24/2sSl7.jpg)
Which rivers are you using as the upper/lower bound for the Saka-Massagetan region?
syrdaria and amurdaria ... River as difficult for the border (in the game) and CONTINGENT regions. Real borders do not exist for the nomads.
Massagetan monuments there and Ustiurt (Eastern Caspian)
...mixed with Sarmatian monuments
I'm liking the knowledge that you are providing us! It will be very useful!
Did the Massagetae and Saka tribes raid the Seleucid and Bactrian settlements a lot?
Also what about the Parni and Dahae?
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/25/H8hon.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/25/H8hon.jpg)
Map of Kazakhstan. The early iron age. (Great Atlas of Kazakstan) for the first time on the Internet.
Settlements of Saka period marked by green color. (...аnd after Saka and Sarmatians will try the Dahae, Parni- If they are in the game. )
dahi formed Saka's Union of tribes. If everything is simplified (in our mod), it be under the criterion of "saka tribes" or "Saka -massagetskie tribes".
Parni will be a main faction since they will be the Parthians.
If we choose a more complicated mod version, then we can divide the tribes and unions of Sakas on the mod map.
Let's make a list of the tribes in the steppes of Central Asia for our mod.
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/aNlVB.jpg)
Eurasia in the middle of the 2nd century BC
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/RYVbc.jpg)
*Parthia III bc
Map from the book "Treasures of the Usturt and Mangistau" 2007. market by red monuments list (#12-23 (V-II bc)) of the early iron age ("strange", barrows and sanctuary) but no settlements. Purple is insufficiently known area.
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/sgDpk.jpg)
Some good resources there... maybe you can add some comments to the maps in Cyrillic? While I can read it thanks to having had many years of Ancient Greek in school and Russian classmates, ahowl will probably sitting at home scratching his head :P
And note that I mean ''read'', not ''understand'' :D But on a map like that it is useful enough to be able to read ''Choresm'' on it for example.
Ok. The map will do in the Latin alphabet. ;)
Let's get with needed tribes. What we need from a
scenario of companies. For example: Parni from dahae will attack Parthia?! What interests us in the chronology in this region?
1. Dahae (as the basis of the Parni)?!
2. Parni (war with Parthia)?!
3. ...
Let's discuss. After that we will be able to make the border more clearly (but the nomads do not have clear boundaries :) )
or ... Suggest making the event table Saka-Massagetae, Dahae, Parni. And from this table insert in the scenario (for example Parphia) the most important events. after that ...games map ;)
maps from book "AN HISTORICAL ATLAS OF CENTRAL ASIA" by YURI BREGEL
BRILL LEIDEN •BOSTON 2003
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/25/XU6O.jpg)
to massagetae we surely can use two settlements 36 and 40
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/25/td4u.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/25/mjBzc.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/25/uBGkK.jpg)
Lets review several variants for maps:
The first variant is the most simple:
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/qYsD.jpg)
Here are all merged into a single border Saka with the massagetae.
Dahae separately (although consisted of the same Saka and massagetae).
the second variant:
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/dGX.jpg) оr (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/M2Qes.jpg)
Here the massagetae were separated border
and the third variant (difficult, but closer to the historical):
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/zKXxA.jpg)
Wusun in the middle of the 2 century BC, from the East and seeking to seize territory (modern name Zhetysu)
*We can make a small area of the parni in southern borders of Dahae. Or whether the Dahae in the time attack will be called the Parni province (for example, 247 BC)
In my opinion: this variant is optimized for games
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/b4uLj.jpg)
*Oops, mistake. "sarmarian" read as "sarmaTians"
As mentioned earlier: it is difficult to draw boundaries of nomadic tribes. it is depending on the features of the company.
Politics of Saka, Dahae Parni, Massagetae, must be peaceful, there may be minor skirmishes. With the Sarmatians, neutral relations, minor border skirmishes. Small forays into Parthia, Bactria.
Two serious:
Dahae (Parni) doing battle on Parthia (middle of 3 century BC)
Wusun (if they are will be in the game) then in the middle of the 2 century BC they appear on East land and resistant Saka grip.
Sarmatians will be their own faction, Parni will be the Parthians and be their own faction. Massagetes and Saka will be represented by the Independent Peoples. We can have Parthia start out at war with them and they would need to subdue the Dahae before attacking the Seleucid Empire
and so ... the second map border version is closer?
This will be the map borders:
(http://gyazo.com/9aab2e9f72032394e71cea8cc08fab50.png)
OMG! There is no place for Sakas and Wusuns. Only the Sarmatians, dahae and part of massagetae.
well then like this:
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/26/OGpa.jpg)
The Saka and Wusun can be simulated by invasions and scripted armies
Quote from: ahowl11 on February 26, 2014, 06:00:42 PM
The Saka and Wusun can be simulated by invasions and scripted armies
The BI horde feature will be ideal for this :).
ok. One more (cuted) variant.
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/0ojEi.jpg)
Okay and you said the Parthians need to be fighting the Dahae t this point?
All borders are conditional. Dahae can be cuted, you can cut the Sarmatians also. Saka and Masagetae you can mix it.
Massagetae not distinguishable by culture and arms from Sakas. Dahae is a Union nomads (saka and massagetae). Parni from Union Dahae! They are nomadic people. Based on historical sources, everything is relative. The framework can be drawn according to historical sources, which are different and uncertain.
waiting for your suggestions and criticisms!
Didn't the Parni split from the Dahae though? We have to have the Parthians so we can't call them the Dahae
If the mod starts in the 3rd century BC the Parni appear from the Dahae and go to Northern Parthia.
approximately 250-240 BCE
The mod begins in 280 BC. What settlements should the Parthians have?
I know of Antioch and Nisa (can be), ((
Map of archaeological cultures 4-3 centuries b.c.
Fully translate difficult but most necessary for you i will translate.
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/PI249.jpg)
Map based on historical data and map archaeological cultures.
The proposed variants for the cities of really existing points.
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/pDvts.jpg)
1. the imaginary settlement of Kyzyl-Uick (there was real place -actually a sanctuary) (suggest to leave the title residential settlement of Dahae)
2. the ruins of the settlement with modern name Igdi-Kala (suggest keep in accordance with title "Igdi" or just settlement of Dahae)
3. the ruins of the settlement with the name Kalalygyr (suggest keep in accordance with the name "Lygyr")
4. the ruins of the huge city with the modern name of Toprak-Kala capital of Khwarazm (suggest keep in accordance with title "Toprak") NB: City of Kiat cannot be capital of Khorezm before III century AD
5. the ruins of the huge city with the modern name Chiric-rabad (suggest keep in accordance with title "Chiric") suggest making capital of the Saka or Massagetian
6. the ruins of the settlement with the name Kokayaz (suggest leaving the name "Saka or Masagetian settlement")
7. the ruins of the settlement with the name Zhana-korgan (suggest the name just "Saka or Massagetian settlement")
other cities:
8. Raga
9. Gekatompil
10. Nisa
11. Navkata
Please questions.
?
Did that huge cities had stone walls?
Point 1 ( imaginary) and 2 could have walls but did not have walls of stone
3-5 points ( had huge wall but wall of mud brick)
6-7 points (had nothing but could adobe)
Then maybe we should retexture the stone wall to a mud brick wall for the steppe factions.
Good idea with wall textures of cities!
One more thing ... in fact...
All nomads camps do not have walls! Several carts and yurts (for beauty)
photos made from the air.
Toprak-kala
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/TACd3.jpg)
reconctrucion model of Toprak-kala
(http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000017/pic/st126_01.jpg)
Chiric-Rabad
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/rdW1O.jpg)
Maybe you can find some examples of the mud brick walls made by the steppe people?
From my collection (Dzhety-Asars Cities. near Chiric-rabad, a good preservation, dating 2 BC, -4 AD ):
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/dKqB.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/dKqB.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/aFQ3U.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/aFQ3U.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/dzfmX.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/dzfmX.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/oO0ia.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/oO0ia.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/2BANf.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/2BANf.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/uPWD.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/uPWD.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/hvtYi.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/hvtYi.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/iYT2j.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/iYT2j.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/kieT0.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/kieT0.jpg)
other samples from the internets:
monuments of ancient Khwarazm
(http://bukharainfo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/kala2.jpg)
(http://bukharainfo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/kala6.jpg)
(http://bukharainfo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/kala1.jpg)
(http://bukharainfo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/10/kala3.jpg)
chiric-rabad
(http://kino.iea.ras.ru/index.php?go=Gallery&file=thumb&id=21)
(http://www.bnews.kz/picture/380/news/f1f41e11e700bea65e36609ce582dc1b.jpg)
(http://www.bnews.kz/picture/380/news/ea086ffee53d048c6b6b85ed9920fb48.jpg)
Great.
Urban architecture can be like European, but the texture can be the clay. Settlements without walls.
About Saki and dahah ...It's hard to speculate, because life has been nomadic.
Here's an example similar to the Saka-Scythian architecture:
fabric, skins, wood, clay ...
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/7bm1N.jpg)
Variants of nomadic cities on the map
My works ( images used for ROMA SURRECTUM II without my permission)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/a6IuN.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/z3fp.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/3vKay.jpg)
Very nice work. ;)
Thanks :)
Ah wow, that looks brilliant! If we could also do models of the bigger towns with those mudbricks, then we've got very diverse models and every siege battle against nomadic tribes will be an unique experience! :)
If our team will make a list of nomadic structuries, I would have started. But strictly in the 3DS format((
What do you think?
Would you be able of making the strat map models for the steppe factions?
... and not only! Individual rooms and structures. For example, several variants of Yurts and carts for the camps.
Wonderful! Then maybe you should start by making the nomadic settlements strat map models and then the characters. The remainder (nomadic buildings and alike) can come next, since it requires more work.
Vаriant of stages Saka and Dahae cities:
1) Yurts and Simple adobe buildings (the wooden walls are not real)
2) more buildings , the yurt outside of village
... after that, build walls (mud brick), yurts disappear.
Next architecture similar to Parthia (not symbols, no blue stripes on the buildings. Walls grow all the same adobes. And central square made of baked bricks
That sounds good!
Not on the Steppe people, but say, do you also have knowledge on the Bosporan Empire, per chance? It seems most work on it's history, including it's army, has been done by Russian archaeologists and our current unit roster for them is a tad speculative.
I'll try to find something. Write a personal message.
Ok then, for strat map models:
1st stage: Camp (yurts and simple adobe buildings);
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/a6IuN.jpg)
2nd stage: Village (more buildings; and more elaborate ones?);
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/a6IuN.jpg)Bigger with wooden houses.
3rd stage: Town (buildings surrounded by a round mud brick wall, no more yurts; no towers in the walls?);
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/3vKay.jpg)
4th stage: City (squared city surrounded by a towered mud brick wall).
(http://gyazo.com/1c06e9d40e8e462e96d48b6b05ff2ebd.png)
I reckon this will be enough.
Cool! :D
Updated with images given by xeofox.
@Xeofox Thanks, that's okay ;)
Seems like you are making decent progress here, but I can't see the last picture, Bercor :P It is not being displayed. And camp and village ought to be the same, yes?
Try again ;).
Yes, the pictures are the same because I couldn't find another. The difference it's that the village will be bigger and has wooden houses, unlike the camp, composed only by yurts and adobe buildings.
Remember, this are not the final strat map models, only an example.
It's there now ;) But on the last page Mikhail put another image for the camp with a wall ;)
Yes, but that's a castle. It would be better as a steppe fort.
Guys, we have a problem! Yurts!
I will make a few choices. We choose the best!
Those on written sources it is sucks! Archaeological data do not exist! ;)
and again return to the map.
i have some idea
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/27/pDvts.jpg)
*Khwarazm is small and quiet)). Simplified version: Culture and the army can be a copy of Greco-Bactrian. (the army is weaker, and the city is better)
*Saka we can safely rename to the Massagetae.
Great work, this will definitely make the mod unique :)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/28/L0O9G.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/28/PCX1G.jpg)
That's just amazing. :o
It`s Scythian yurt from Bosporan. The Scythians relatives of Sakas.
We can use this in the eastern part of the maps ;)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/02/28/ifqe8.jpg)
Wow amazing!
Different models of yurts. Used three textures (one for pair).
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/01/y3j2M.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/01/5oFpY.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/01/RScm1.jpg)
just a VUE picture!
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/02/CUOF.png)
Amazing as ever.
When I will see them on the battlefield or in the settlement, i will be to believe in reincarnation of Sakas! ;)
Analysis of standard RTW models. Typical houses of the steppe nomads can be:
a typical version of the simplest homes for Sarmatians (with wood)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/03/AxIG.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/03/F4C2.jpg)
*most likely not built the Dahае, but if it were built ... because a lot of stone in their region.
The sanctuary of "Tubenžik2" and "Baskuduk1". Found on the Ustyurt. 4-3 centuries b.c.
Presumably Sarmatian religious sanctuary.
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/03/6LcKf.jpg)
Reconstruction for mod (can be one of the buildings in the Centre of the Sarmatian settlements)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/03/RJBQV.jpg)
* not all agree that this is a Sarmatian building, so we can use it to Dahae also.
Experimenting...
(http://gyazo.com/e0b7598cca4ccebac48c37bbac16772b.png)
Looking good. What would we use for Barracks, Market, blacksmith etc? Wouldn't everything need to be changed for the culture? Then we would need the customized settlement plan for the culture as well.
Dear comrades. It was a lot of mods, but no one has organized the nomads. No one can make the city moved on the map. We can make the illusion! The nomads were few buildings and enough. Temporary Yurt, permanent places of worship this tomb and sanctuary. For features. In the city, will be half of structures and actions.
Sarmatians: won the West and the South, there's a lot of cities did not have to intervene. But Saki and Dahae. We do not know anything about them.
Real construction of the nomads (TOWN):
Dahae. Saki. -Enlarge the parking place, build a lair, to build the sanctuary, area councils.
Not built and the actions menu in TOWN: Find the winter parking, find (or designate) blacksmith, to drive livestock (horses, sheep, goats).
After each activity will be added (one simple yurt).
Strategy: If the nomads super powerful archers, with such a culture, when taking someone else's town, not the right to demolish enemy city (it is closer to reality), only repaired.
Not ready built: paddock for animals (or animal place) and the central square (or the area councils). Saky Sanctuary (in the form it is large mound)
If possible, capture the city of Saks and Dahae impossible. The only way to win is to destroy all enemy units.
Plus add decorations (trampled road, carts)
The only city main by sakskyi was CHIRIK-RABAD (in the center of the mound, around the walls and the remains of the unknown buildings). The CHIGU-CHEN who is not included in our map. The rest of the city, (not built ) occupied.
Proposal to your strict Court .
If not, then we mix with Parthian architecture the urban nomads
the most difficult thing I call it city nomads or urban nomads ;D
It is a variant of urbanization ( Sakas or Dahae before will begin to build the city, army a lot but only horse archers)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/JEqZj.jpg)
it is for example/ Please discuss, correct!
Hmm we will definitely need to brainstorm for this
The sanctuary of the nomads (three levels).
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/06/BYGC9.jpg)
*I offer three levels of construction. Saka (or massagetae) is a structure in the form of mound (kurgan). These nomads of the great number of mounds with menhirs, stone laying out, stone fences, etc. This mound of a fictional, but is best suited to the concept of "different levels of urban construction "
Мound (kurgan) were mainly for burials, but not soo lot of mounds of unknown why built.
Looking good. What else needs to be made?
If a simple transition from nomadism to urbanization. We will place this in the town and refugee camps. I think that's all in structure of the buildings and the economy! But ready to listen to your opinion!
Economy in the structure of the game, it's something terrible for me. I think you can make good suggestions.
*the result tables is a yurts at dahae and Saka (massagetae) on the first level, there are a few buildings (Parthian arch) in second level. And the sanctuary of strictly tribe. It is ilusion of changing from nomadism to urbanisation.
Interesting fact (for the economy or just for fun ;D ). Saki-haomavarga towards making Haoma. For many years, was going to dispute what is Haoma. There were two versions: marijuana and ephedra? There are a few Saks vessels with an image of ephedra. However, but the remains of marijuana in separate containers (up North).
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/hP0um.jpg) An interesting facts!
1.An interesting fact about the Sarmatians. In one of the tombs of Sarmatian burial ground KYRYKOBA (not far from the city of Uralsk, Kazakhstan). Next to the remains of Sarmatian Warrior found pottery- Egyptian Scarabs )
2.Sakае smoked (or (and) eat) marijuana.
3.There are several Saka graves where the warior was buried with a dog.
4.The Saka and Sarmatians were animal style in art. On the northern boundary of the land of nomads found dumping (permafrost) with tattoos animal style.
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/hP0um.jpg)
Historical sourcesSakae
Spoiler
1. Clement of Alexandria writes: Saki women pretend to retreat. turn back and shoot ... as well as men. (Srom. I. V)
2. Aelian writes about the Sakae underground Sanctuary (Variae, historiae, XII, 38)
3. Herodotus book I 153; III 93; VI 113; VII 9, 64, 96, 184; VIII 113; IX 31, 71, 113.
4. Strabo, Geography XI 9.1, XI 8.2-9, XI, 8, 4, II,1,14, XI.14.4
Sarmarian
Spoiler
1. Herodotus book IV, 110—117, IV, 13, IV, 11, I, 201, ...
2. Ptolemaeus III, 10. 37—40, III, 18. 41—43
Dahae
Spoiler
...Strabo 11.9.3
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/hP0um.jpg)
The clothing of the nomads.in TWR mods there are tribes of nomads . The very best, they are shown in the EB1.
Rome surectum made a unique horse with horns. It is very beautiful, but the bug is that it is sporadic (solitary)and are only suitable for the generals of the army.
Spoiler
reconstruction by Gorelik
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/DtHUd.jpg)
reconstruction by Gorelik
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/5NJZY.jpg)
appropriate type
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/nRHoZ.jpg)
Behistun inscript
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/rDoz.jpg)
appropriate type
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/R40j.jpg)
Sakaian soldiers of Xerxes army
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/AzO5K.png)
sakas (persepolis inscript)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/dPEZY.jpg)
the good view
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/RbU5.jpg)
Sakian warrior
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/qMgx3.jpg)
Sarmatians
Spoiler
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/16/3CDJX.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/16/WXOA.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/16/XghNC.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/16/9vJFw.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/16/QnLYG.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/16/6Ldre.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/16/LiaRq.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/16/WLfg.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/16/BSip.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/16/hBoEx.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/16/Pqsx.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/16/qdBXP.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/16/jYAtF.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/16/yZI5X.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/hP0um.jpg)
WeaponsBows
Spoiler
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/sq9R.jpg)
Cases for bow(Горит) and quivers
Spoiler
from inernet (Scythians)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/RXS6n.gif)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/SbVh.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/9Vf1G.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/IhdoF.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/v1BNO.jpg)
reconctruction from Altynbekov Kyrym labaratori (с)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/vmIxQ.jpg)
Acinaces
Spoiler
Same with Scythians, Persians, Agripei, Massagetae, etc
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/aDio0.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/08/dhLr.jpg)
Shields
Spoiler
At Saka, massagetae tombs- no one. If Shields were then made of wood and fabric
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/hP0um.jpg)
miscSakae gold
Spoiler
from internet
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/8rbga.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/K0yji.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/9buwK.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/4a8z.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/HGstP.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/0d8sM.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/F68Xk.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/9Born.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/EiR27.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/lsFcf.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/h2Lun.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/WIbRB.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/ox6eX.jpg)
photos by O.Bilyalov
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/Kcz3.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/Kcz3.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/3T7qt.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/3T7qt.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/nze7F.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/nze7F.jpg)
http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/xQqCw.jpg (http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/xQqCw.jpg)
library
Spoiler
Sakae Treasures (M.I. Artamonov 1973, RUS, lot of photos) (!!!)
http://dfiles.ru/files/331jny52r (http://dfiles.ru/files/331jny52r)
The language of Southern of the Sakas (ENG.Rare and interesting article)
http://dfiles.ru/files/ejozcl9rc (http://dfiles.ru/files/ejozcl9rc)
SINO-PLATONIC PAPERS A Study of Saka History (ENG)
http://dfiles.ru/files/82dh1yn7q (http://dfiles.ru/files/82dh1yn7q)
Sarmatians. Ancient tribe of South Russia (RUS)
http://dfiles.ru/files/mvs1wsk68 (http://dfiles.ru/files/mvs1wsk68)
yurts for leader (fictional)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/sdqH.jpg)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/dhxpE.jpg)
Great! I'll probably use the first example.
We are going to have so much information when we start implementing the nomad culture :)
I reckon this is a pretty acceptable nomad camp stratmap model:
(http://gyazo.com/31b959fb8e081be6757aca2ccb70fc62.png)
No?
I think it will be great! :D
Quote from: xeofox on March 06, 2014, 12:09:25 AM
It is a variant of urbanization ( Sakas or Dahae before will begin to build the city, army a lot but only horse archers)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/07/JEqZj.jpg)
it is for example/ Please discuss, correct!
Not sure I understand this.
"sanctuary" --> temples?
"colltection of natural reserves" --> hunting and gathering?
"army" --> barracks?
"1,2,3,4,5" --> city levels?
It would be best to keep the structure of the tech tree as it is, but since nomads will be their own culture, descriptions, effects, icons and images of buildings can be anything we want them to be. I'm sure there are possibilities for customization.
For instance, hunting grounds and pastures make good nomadic "farms".
I think that's suggesting a similar tech tree structure, but making buildable "actions" rather than the standard buildings. :)
"sanctuary" --> temples? yes
"colltection of natural reserves" --> hunting and gathering? yes (for winter)
"army" --> barracks? no. I mean differences from Parthia. another army
"1,2,3,4,5" --> city levels? yes
the biggest problem is nomads havent buildings. If they have built it is not nomads. If the first city levels are not standard then we will give the illusion of urbanization of nomadic tribes.
I think that's suggesting a similar tech tree structure, but making buildable "actions" rather than the standard buildings.
Yes, the building will be constructed (for example another simple yurt or a simple building (unremarkable)). BUT on the menu will be referred to as actions.
*the image of structures level in dropbox for you correction and you fantasy (nomad_economy.psd)
Success! After many tribulations, and with the indispensable help of Jarlaxe, I managed to implement xeofox's buildings in the stratmap.
Behold, the nomadic settlement of Aleria: :P
Spoiler
(http://gyazo.com/e296c385e9f30e47d3e38c4dc142ecfd.png)
Bear in mind that this is not the final version, and improvements are to be expected.
Looking good! Try talking Jarlaxe into joining us if he can. He said he would but he is busy a few months ago. Maybe something has changed?
Here's the final version of the nomad camp stratmap model:
Spoiler
(http://i.gyazo.com/89eb41dde96608f5a2f41a5ab667e8a4.png)
Any complaints?
How it looks ingame:
Spoiler
(http://i.gyazo.com/d36f48a4cf1a5983e0cc403be9ae5cf0.png)
Any chance it could have grass under it?
Of course. :)
I'm just using the current map to show off.
(http://i.gyazo.com/07ca7e5a842809c382d3b137562f7aa6.png)
Good stuff.
Nomad Town:
(http://i.gyazo.com/0207e866f432b44f30ffab409ea2af59.png)
the optimal design of the city! well made! :o
In the next level of town a yurts will disappear! :-\
I was thinking of keeping them, but outside the city walls, similar to what Europa Barbarorum's team is going to do:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img854/7987/largecity.jpg)
What do you think?
Nice! :) but the yurts as modern (or medieval)
I'll be using your yurts, not theirs. :P
Just posted the pic to roughly demonstrate how it looks.
Good!
but... maybe we make for Sarmatians settlements (separately) yurts-like medieval (and modern)? ;D
I don't think it's possible to have two different models of settlements of the same tier in the same culture (at least if it isn't a custom settlement). What I could do, if you make some "modern" yurts, is to use them in the nomadic large town and city, instead of the current ones.
Then maybe drop the sanctuary from the stratmap? A unified system for Sakas, Dahae. The differences will be only inside of the city.
Yeah, the sanctuary won't be present in the next tiers.
If we do not make a special sanctuary for saka, the mound (for strat map), the better at any tier (stratmap) sanctuary (of all nomads) does not show. Only inside of town.
Why, I don't think we need to be so historical that we can't have a Dahae sanctuary in the nomadic settlements. Besides, what do I put in the center, if not the sanctuary?
Kurgan for Sakas or void for sakas.
...or void for all nomads- it is the most simplified history.
the sanctuary of the Ustyurt single cases. And the Sakas mounds- thousands.
High levels of the cities of the steppe nomads- it's all fiction, falsification! We can show the soldiers and the sanctuary. :)
(http://fotohost.kz/images/2014/03/06/BYGC9.jpg)
Ok. Then should I put the that mound in the middle of the settlement?
Quote from: Bercor on March 18, 2014, 11:35:05 PM
...I don't think we need to be so historical...
"Archaeology is the search for fact ... not truth..." I.J.
my other tasks I can't see
Quote from: Bercor on March 19, 2014, 01:10:30 AM
Ok. Then should I put the that mound in the middle of the settlement?
...mound or nothing (for sakas)
My question is: can the mound be used for the generic nomad settlement strat map model (saka, sauromatae, dahae, parni, etc)?
It is much easier ... Yes you Can! Because the mounds (kurgan) were all. A stone sanctuary at territory where we expect dahae.
Keeping away from the facts. Simplifying, the kurgan can be in a mid sarmatian settl. :(
Very well, I'll change that tomorrow.
Nomad Large Town
(http://i.gyazo.com/5568edcb7ae2acfcba10a2bfc88ce70e.png)
Wooden wall? We are talking about adobe?
Yes, adobe walls for the nomad city, fourth and final tier, and not the nomad large town.
Your choice! :)
I like the look of all this a lot :)
Hey xeofox :) ,
since you are in charge of all the Steppe people I guess you would also have knowledge on their troops? I read that Cataphracts were first used by the Sakae and Achaemenids, before the Parthians and Hellenistic kingdoms adopted them. My exact question would be, wether you know around which time Parthia, the Seleucids and Armenia adopted the Cataphracts? Perhaps the Seleucids already inherited some from the Persians? The Parthians only seem to have adopted them later, though, in the late 3rd century BC?