Exilian
Off-topic and Chatter: The Jolly Boar Inn => Tabletop Games - The Game Room => Topic started by: Phoenixguard09 on July 13, 2011, 01:23:55 PM
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Hey guys,
My mate DukeDev and I are working on a complete rehash of the Warhammer game, looking to fix the problems inherent in 7th Edition, re-balance the armies while adding a few more for completeness' sake.
The issue? We need a hand with ideas for several armies to make them unique.
http://s4.zetaboards.com/Battlehammer/index/
The Lists board is for the discussion of the armies. Please post any suggestions there.
Thanks in advance,
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And we would like to pretend 8th never existed!
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Too true. :P
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Could I suggest that either CtA or Exilian hosts the project? I'm much more likely to be able to contribute if it doesn't mean I have to trawl a whole new site, and I'd love to add some feedback etc and make sure it integrates with other ideas of mine such as my campaign rules.
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Well, as far as that goes, I'd have no problem with that, bar we need quite a bit of room. I'll ask Dev what he thinks tonight. BTW thanks for the offer mate, I'm glad we can get your help.
And bugger, now I need to go have another look at your campaign rules. :D
So if anyone else is reading this, please feel free to put suggestion for units either here or on the other site. Be warned I set it up in about 20 minutes flat, so if there are any problems with it, its my fault. :P
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I'm too tired to register, so I'll write my suggestions here : (mostly related to initiative and weapon types)
Always strike last rule should be removed from great weapons. Negative impact on initiative ( -2 initiative for example) should be enough. Always strike last should only be applied if user's initiative drops below 1 after equipping the weapon.
Charging an enemy should provide initiative boost.
Always strike first rule for mounted lancers on charge (reason : weapon length).
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Thank you SilverWolf. You will be pleased to know that pretty much all of those suggestions have already been introduced, with spears and pikes giving an Initiative boost as well but only when charged meaning a unit of spears or pikes will strike at the same speed whether they charge or not.
Lances on the other hand will just be an Initiative boost, not ASF.
Another thing, I like your idea with the great weapons only conferring ASL on a model with Initiative of less than 1.
Anyway thanks for that SilverWolf and please add more if you think of anything.
Everyone, this is your chance to make this the game you want. Don't let the opportunity pass by. Come on, dig deep!
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Lances on the other hand will just be an Initiative boost, not ASF.
Will they still offer +2 strength on charge? That's also logical because of the momentum.
Shooting also needs a revamp. But I don't know what to suggest right now (I haven't played the 7th edition, but older editions might be helpful).
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Yes they shall. As you say it is logical.
As far as shooting goes we're looking at close range shooting conferring +1 to hit.
Aside from that, not sure but we're gonna have a look.
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What about forests? They're kind of silly right now.
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Yet another thing changing. The terrain chart will be an optional thing, as opposed to, yes, half the forests of the world want to eat you. :)
We have been browsing several forums and therefore have a decent idea of what the community wants with regards to the core rules. Its the armies themselves where we are having some issues. The fact is, in 7th several armies were just not viable, (Combat Dwarves, Tomb Kings to some extent, Ogres generally, Greenskins were often complained about) so we need to try and fix these. I've got a good idea for the Dwarves and Greenskins might be fixed too, but there is still issues for other armies.
So seriously guys, that is the most prominent need at the moment: New units for existing armies.
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Dwarfs are bad?! I've never seen a dwarf loose a battle.
Greenskins, Ogres and Beastmen, on the other hand, need some love.
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I wish to be involved in the Tomb King development process, it is relevant to my interests.
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Would you rather host it here or on CtA, Phoenix? You'd get more space on CtA I think, so I'd go for that. I think we should shift it ASAP to give you the minimum stuff to move, too.
I have a LOT of proposals, particularly on weapons & the human lists.
Shooting:
- Less accurate
- Far more multishot weapons - for a skilled archer a bow should be 2x or 3x multiple shots, the crossbow & handgun fire every other turn, everything should have the same moving/shooting rules. A well practised (say, elven) longbowman could fire six shots a minute, a crossbowman could never really do more than one.
CC:
- Pikes. PIKES, dammit. Multi ranks, +1S versus chargers with at least +2 and a panic or fear test against charging cavalry.
I'll expans more later.
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To SilverWolf: How many Dwarf lists have you seen that were based around combat? ;) And you are right with regards to Beasts, I'd forgotten about them, but the new book has fixed them up a little. I'm still unhappy about some of the changes but at least they can win consistently now.
To NightAngel: Thanks mate, we don't have a TK player in our group so we could certainly use your aid. We're also doing a Barrow King list, which might tickle your fancy as well.
To Jubal: Um, for the sake of more activity, I think I'll go with CtA. I'd like a full sub-board if that's ok. I figure if you could please give me moderator privileges for that particular sub-board I'll just get everything on there with the least amount of hassle for you or the other admins over there.
As to your suggestions: The shooting rules will be more-or-less the same as 7th. One of the worst things 8th did was remove guess-ranges for warmachines. That really pisses me off. So warmachines will be less-accurate than in 8th, is that what you were suggesting, or do you mean less accurate than 7th?
Multishot weapons: I like this, but with a few changes. I'm having some sort of idea floating around for the amount of shots having something to do with Initiative. I'll get back to you on that. Seeing as Initiative was mainly useless in 7th, one big thing we are trying to do is make it more important.
Pikes: Our current rules for pikes are as follows: Units armed with pikes may fight with two additional ranks in close combat. In close combat a unit armed with pikes also receives +2 to their Initiative value.
We will consider the Strength bonus, but I do not think we will go with the Panic test against charging cavalry. There are a few reasons for this:
1. Charging into a wall of pikes is just as scary for infantry as it is for cavalry.
2. There are several creatures in the Warhammer World that wouldn't care. Eg. Kislev Bears, Cold Ones, perhaps Orc Boars. Where does the rule stop?
3. A load of men extending pointy sticks at you is probably not as scary as having a horde of massive green monsters bearing down on you trying to devour you and tear you limb from limb. If charging a unit of Orcs doesn't produce a Panic test, why should charging pikes?
Thanks for the suggestions guys, they're really helpful. Please keep 'em coming. :)
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I meant more that shooting should have more shots with each one less likely to hit, more referring to standard shooting than machines.
Initiative makes very little difference when firing a weapon; a crossbow will take ages to shoot no matter your fundamental speed, since you have to wind the damn thing up. Bows will always be at least four to six times faster.
Have you ever tried running a horse into a pointy wall? Humans are mad enough bastards to do it; at least they can dodge, can parry, and aren't going so fast. Horses, except for those with stupidly good training, can't do those things and simply won't charge. Boars I suspect wouldn't either - it simply doesn't matter how truculent and badass an animal is, very few of them will actually keep going hell-for-leather at a solid object (in fact, in actual warfare heavy cavalry mostly worked by the enemy starting to run/shift before they got there). From the horse's point of view, orcs are a fluid mass that a horse can run into. Pikes are a solid spiky wall that they won't, they're at heart an anti-cavalry weapon.
I'll get the subsection set up, and give you admin rules so you can bung the sub-boards in and so on.
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But you still have to think about balance...
Every other type of weapon is going to be useless. I can already imagine a standard Empire army : 3 hordes of spearmen.
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Well they will have no advantage if rear or flank charged.
For the good Kings I will be working mostly off the new book but I think incantations will be brought back (I refuse to let my Hierophant explode >:( ) however I have a plan to make the Tomb King magic phase a thing to be feared, but at a risk to the TK's player. You'll see.
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Well they will have no advantage if rear or flank charged.
That's still not enough.
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I only said pikes should panic charging cavalry, not spears. Spears might be more like fight in 2 ranks, +1 initiative in first round of combat when fighting to the front, no advantage to sides or rear. Weapons need to be factored into troop cost as well.
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Jubal I do see what you are getting at with the pikes, but I honestly don't see how that can really be factored in appropriately. Everything you say is of course correct, just, a little, well, impratical for a slightly abstract game.
With regards to the shooting, I honestly feel that shooting is probably a little too inaccurate but we'll see what other have to say about that. As far as Initiative goes, I was working off the assumption that Initiative would be a stand in for just natural speed. It does seem to be the way GW looks at it. In that case, the hand speed of an Elf would be such that he would nock, draw and loose faster than a human. Hence working into the multiple shots. But we'd still have to see how that would translate into game terms.
And thanks mate for setting up the board, I'll start shifting stuff over soon.
@ SilverWolf: I think I should really post the changes for weapon types that we are looking at:
Hand Weapon: Acts just as it does now.
Heavy Weapon: (Choppas, Morning Stars, Saurus Macahuitls) +1 Strength on first round of combat. (Same as now, but its an actual category now. Can't be used in conjunction with shield for Parry bonus.)
Great Weapon: +2 Strength, -1 Initiative.
Spear: Fight with additional rank, +1 Initiative.
Pike: Fight with 2 additional ranks, +2 Initiative.
Halberd: Fight with additional rank, +1 Strength for front rank.
Additional Hand Weapon: +1 Attack.
Buckler: +1 Armour Save in Close Combat. (This is the Parry Save.)
Shield: +1 Armour Save, +1 to Parry Save.
Heavy Shield: +1 Armour Save, +2 to Parry Save. (This is experimental for Chaos Warriors. The issue being that this will tip them over to a 1+ Armour Save in Close Combat.)
Tower Shield/Pavise: +2 Armour Save at Range.
Lance: +2 Strength on Charge, +1 Initiative on Charge.
Cavalry Spear: +1 Strength on Charge.
Note: Parry save only works on foot. On the other hand, unlike 7th, both Great Weapons and Additional Hand Weapons will work the same, mounted or not. Impractical in real life, sure. Cool as hell, and sort of wanted for game balance (Questing Knights, looking at you) I think so as well.
@ Night Angel: Mate that's good, I also want the Incantations back. As far as the new book goes, myself I'd push for dropping the Necrosphinx. I personally don't like it for several reasons, not the least of which being that it looks sorta weird. On the other hand the Warsphinx should probably stay cause that's pretty cool.
I think that's everything, please keep this up guys, this is very helpful.
Cheers,
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whole point of choppas are that only orcs can use them and to them it is effectively a hand weapon, so i don't see sense in them losing the parry bonus
also why wouldn't cavalry spears get bonus Int on the charge?
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whole point of choppas are that only orcs can use them and to them it is effectively a hand weapon, so i don't see sense in them losing the parry bonus
also why wouldn't cavalry spears get bonus Int on the charge?
Yeah I agree with the first one...
The second one is a bit different. Lances get the initiative bonus because of their length, but cavalry spears are much shorter.
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but still give significant reach when compared to a sword for example, even on horseback
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Uhm... for that matter, aren't elves I5? So an elf with a lance could run straight into a human pikeman and hit him first despite the massive 20ft shaft of wood in the way?
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yeah, lance may have greater reach but unless the target is standing still they are pretty easily dodged, maybe the S bonus is enough for lances
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Uhm... for that matter, aren't elves I5? So an elf with a lance could run straight into a human pikeman and hit him first despite the massive 20ft shaft of wood in the way?
Lances were often 4 m long (or even longer). Take that and add I5, which means that the elf reacts at the speed of light and you've got the explanation why he gets to strike first. He's just too agile to be hit by a human warrior. He dodges it or whatever.
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I'll leave you guys to it, I don't think we're going to agree on this one. :P
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Haha no this is good. See what we have here is an excellent example of what GW has done. The problem is if you mess with the core rules enough, the game starts not to work. Hence why this is a more or less, complete re-write. But maybe we should take it a little more steadily for now.
Guys, I would like you to list the weak points of 7th. Everything you can think of. Don't worry if someone has posted it already, I'd like an idea of what is considered a problem by everyone. Go! :D
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- Weapon bonuses
- Dangerous woods (How do people even build cities? Imagine an empire citizen looking for firewood... Now that's a lethal task.)
- Random charge distances (I can't explain why, but it just doesn't seem right.)
- Magic (Lots of people complain about magic. Some even call the game Magichammer. The truth is that there a few spells which can decimate a whole army. Purple sun, dwellers from bellow and such. Magic kind of ruins the fun for most of the people.)
Oh, 7th edition... Sorry. When I started playing Warhammer 8th edition was already out. Well dammit, that was a year ago. Time flies my friends, time flies.
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Well magic still didn't work in 7th. Wizard spam with certain spells was terrifying.
I came in around late 7th so Whineseer was abuzz with the problems people had figured out.
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your making me feel old, i started in the last year of 6th
i think the main problem was the imbalence between books, any fool could write up a daemon list and still win
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Yeah NA, pretty sure the majority of problems with magic were more due to Army-specific Lores (eg. Necromancy for VC's and Daemons in general.)
And DD, that is completely correct. Armies like Dark Elves, (2xHydra, Dreadlord with Pendant on Blackdragon + Blackguard Deathstar unit) VC's (If they went overboard with magic stuff) and Daemons (Just everything...everything) were ridiculous in 7th. Those three were the most complained about, however Skaven and WoC lists had their day.
One of the things we are looking at for this particular project is the balance of the army lists, helped by the fact that they will not be released a book at a time, meaning there will be no urge to one-up the previous book. Again and again and again. :)
Thanks guys. Now the same thing but stuff that you don't like about 8th too. Let me know if there is more about 7th, but could you please label it as such. This is great guys, please keep it coming.
As an aside, I think I may have a year on you DD. ;)
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Old pike rules by Alessio:
Pikes: Fight in four ranks; requires two hands (see page 89 of
the Warhammer rulebook).
Always strikes first in the initial round of close combat, even
striking before enemies that have charged. Note that enemies
who are entitled to strike first because of a special ability or
magic, will still strike before pike-armed models.
Models armed with pikes receive a +1 Strength bonus in the
Close Combat phase of the turn they are charged by cavalry units,
chariots or monsters. Note that this bonus only applies to attacks
directed against the above charging units, not against other units.
All these special rules cannot be used against enemy units
fighting the pikemen’s flank or rear.