Exilian
Art, Writing, and Learning: The Clerisy Quarter => Discussion and Debate - The Philosopher's Plaza => Topic started by: stormcloud on September 16, 2008, 10:35:40 PM
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Here (link) (http://www.newscientist.com/channel/opinion/dn14748-letter-richard-dawkins-on-the-royal-society-row.html?feedId=online-news_rss20) is a link to a letter by the incredible (IMHO) Richard Dawkins talking about the recent row in the Royal Society over the remarks of their head of education, advising that creationism should be taught in science lessons as a valid point of view
Discuss
please :)
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Taken me a while to reply, but Dawkins is as always right. He's almost TOO right, that's why some people can't stomach him.
Ever read the God Delusion?
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No but I am building an amazon order ( have read all my books I bought to Uni ) and I have his book in the cart
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Please don't buy that book it sounds like a pile of bullarmadillo.
"Scientists divide into two camps over this issue: the accommodationists, who 'respect' creationists while disagreeing with them; and the rest of us, who see no reason to respect ignorance or stupidity."
And if Dawkins wrote this then I have to say he is a llama. And an arragont prick.
Edit: Oh and he realy needs to think before writing bullarmadillo like this "relatively sensible minority among Christians, who accept evolution." as quite a large proportion of christians accept evolution.
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well I am getting it now so :P
religion is for morons, if you want to believe in something, keep it to yourself, I don't care, don't hand out leaflets or ask me 'is Jesus in your heart' no, he is not and if God exists I hope I burn in hell so I don't have to put up with you idiots
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Please don't buy that book it sounds like a pile of bullarmadillo.
"Scientists divide into two camps over this issue: the accommodationists, who 'respect' creationists while disagreeing with them; and the rest of us, who see no reason to respect ignorance or stupidity."
And if Dawkins wrote this then I have to say he is a llama. And an arragont prick.
Edit: Oh and he realy needs to think before writing bullarmadillo like this "relatively sensible minority among Christians, who accept evolution." as quite a large proportion of christians accept evolution.
In the UK and W Europe, yes evolution is accepted by most christians; in the USA (which is where the book is really aimed since they have the most creationist tards) not so much.
I'm trying to imagine Penty asking someone if Jesus is in thier heart.
I'm failing. :lol:
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Stormcloud religeon is not for morons. Blind following of religeous teachings is for morons but if religeon is not corrupted it can greatly improve human welfare. However we do get such llamas as jehovs and the fanatic part of the muslim comunity (sorry muslims for calling it the muslim comunity but I can't be bothered to think of a better prhasing) but printing out books about how god doesn't exist (which is a huge waste of time since man cannot prove or disprove that a god exists) is not going to stop such fanatics. However it will piss of people who use religeon to get through tough parts of their lives, people who need their religeon.
Saying that all people who believe in a relgeon are ignorant or stupid shows Dawkins is either a hypocrit or an arragont prick as he is either assuming that there is no possibilty that his views are wrong (arragont prick comes in here) or he is accusing people of being ingorant when he is ignorant (hypocrit.)
And so he is a llama.
And yes before you ask I am a christian but I am a very bad one. And I don't believe in true creationism although not being an arrogant prick I admit it is a possible explanation for stuff.
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Which I think goes to what I was saying earlier - Dawkins' point about creationism being bull is flawless, but the upfront, bullish, in your face way he says it just hacks off quite a few people.
I think the book counters quite a few of Penty's arguments, but can't be bothered to dig it out.
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Penty, I shall just leave you in a fantasy world then, arguing flaws in religion is tedious, and if it gets tight then the answer 'god moves in mysterious ways' crops up, meaning a waste of time, energy and precious intellect.
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The Flying Spaghetti Monster moves in mysterious ways, stormcloud.
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage?
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have you still got that lego model with the church to the giant spagetti monster?
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Know ye not the power of the Beast of Bolognaise?
Cease talk of this weakling, the F***** S******** M******.
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Penty, I shall just leave you in a fantasy world then, arguing flaws in religion is tedious, and if it gets tight then the answer 'god moves in mysterious ways' crops up, meaning a waste of time, energy and precious intellect.
Give me an example of one of religeons flaws that is not to do with corruption or people following religous teachings blindly. Go ahead. And Jubal please dig something out becuase I'm getting pissed off with arragont llamas like Dawkins and I don't believe that it would counter my arguements as it seems like the sort of thing aimed to insult and counter the beliefs of fundamentalists.
Also the god moves in mysterius ways thingy can be very comforting to people
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Yes I must be very comforting to know that no matter how cornered you are you can get out of the argument, hence why I cba
So I leave you with this
I am Atheist
Smite me
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You can't be arsed or you can't back up what you have said? Unless you do back anything up I assume that you can't. And you might not find religeon comforting but you are you, many people do and if you can't admit to that then you are an idiot or you are way to far up your own arse.
Edit:
Do you find the thought of nothing at all after death comforting? To believe that you cease to exist? Becuase like many people I find it pretty portugaling scary.
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Personally I think Creationism is a load of bull, and trying to introduce it into the science curriculum is retarded, but hey, that's just my opinion.
I think that God does exist as a concept, and for many nations over the years, it has been an integral part of life. As an omnipresent being, I don't think there is a God.
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Penty, I shall just leave you in a fantasy world then, arguing flaws in religion is tedious, and if it gets tight then the answer 'god moves in mysterious ways' crops up, meaning a waste of time, energy and precious intellect.
Give me an example of one of religeons flaws that is not to do with corruption or people following religous teachings blindly. Go ahead. And Jubal please dig something out becuase I'm getting pissed off with arragont llamas like Dawkins and I don't believe that it would counter my arguements as it seems like the sort of thing aimed to insult and counter the beliefs of fundamentalists.
Also the god moves in mysterius ways thingy can be very comforting to people
For a start, if religion doesn't exist in thei first place it's technically not possible to follow it blindly.
So we can split religion into two effects; fundieism, and the comfort factor. We also have to take into account that no major religion can claim to have eliminated fundieism, therefore we must assume that it is a built in side effect of religion.
Other points include;
- Religion is a waste of human resources. The church owns vast amounts of land (not including churches and rectories, large parts of many countries are legally owned by the church). If the state owned said land we could put it to use helping the poor or whatever.
- Religion is a worry to some people as well as a comfort. People often worry that they have done something which some one up there diapproves of, which negates the comfort factor altogether.
- Religion is an impediment to science (all but very moderate religion requires a belief in some sort of miracle or at least perfection on earth, which requires an alleviation of scientific principles). I know this one doesn't apply to you, but frnaky your Christianity borders on Deism anyway.
That's a start, I'll carry on tomorrow or something.
My personal view is that at the moderate end (i.e. moderate to the point it allows them to accept all scientific principles as base, unchangeable facts and so on) religion is not a prblem either to me or society as a whole. I think it should rmeain a perosnal belief and a choice - and it's the choice element that's important.
My strongest criticism of a lot of fundamentalist or even some relatively moderate religions is not that they allow thier worshippers to by and large believe as fact a buncha weedheaded codswallop some fool wrote 2000 years back (by which I mean the insane and clealry rubbish bits of the bible/koran/torah), but that they teach thier children this as fact too - which I consider practically criminal, no child should have thier belief chosen without thier consent, they should be allowed to condier the facts from a balanced perspective as adults.
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The "comfort factor" is not negated by the "worry factor" as humans are not altogether totally stupid as they would have to be to follow reliegeon if it gave them no benefits at all. Also if they have done something that they think will worry someone up there then there is a good possibilty that they should worry becuase what they did is bad.
If church land was given to the state do you realy think it would be used to help the poor? Like I said religeon has benefits, just becuase it doen't benefit you doesn't mean it doesn't have them.
No one should "accept all scientific principles as base, unchangeable facts" as sceintific principles can be wrong, we don't know everything an we never will, lots of stuff which is contradicted by reiligeon be theories.
As to the very last part you wrote that is frankly ridiculous. Everyone is influenced as a child to there beliefs, I was, you were, stormcloud was. To not influence your childrens beliefs you would have to not teach them which is even more crinimal than teaching them fundamentalist views.
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Sorryu marcus I hadn't seen your post. I think pure creationism is a load of old bull as well but it takes less than 2 minutes to introduce it. All you have to say is what it is and that it can't be proved or disproved.
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Being influenced and being taught are different things. At the extreme end private schools in America exist which teach the bible as rock solid truth. You and storm and I are all to some extent infromed as to both sides of the argument, we've seen what was on the other side of the debate, yes we were affected by our parents and so on, but I was brought up in a C of E school myself and sang hymns every morning for so many years, I have read parts of the bible myself. I know at least a small amount about Christianity. Not everyone out there has looked (or had the chance to look) both ways, they are told things to shore up belief which are simply out and out lies, and can be easily proven to be so.
I may have gone over the top on scinetific principles, all I meant was that people should accept that the basic forces that govern our planet are real, measurable focres and objects, and that people don't walk from the dead and water does not turn into wine just because because.
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couldn't agree more
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You can't be arsed or you can't back up what you have said?
I can't be arsed because if you feed the fire it will keep burning, bt it you must heres a my main point
massive internal hypocrisy, ie gay bishops, and the proven fact the earth is not at the centre of the universe, sure you say that it's just religion adapting but your adapting against the word of something you believe in, STICK TO YOUR BELIEF AND EARN SOME RESPECT, at least then you're a respectful nutter
Unless you do back anything up I assume that you can't. And you might not find religeon comforting but you are you, many people do and if you can't admit to that then you are an idiot or you are way to far up your own arse.
Yes I know people do, and I can't understand how believing in something bigger than you could be comforting, especially when that big thing proves to be an arse by creating wasting mental illness, paedophiles, tragic deaths, unimaginable criminality etc
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Do you find the thought of nothing at all after death comforting? To believe that you cease to exist? Becuase like many people I find it pretty portugaling scary.
I don't give a damn about what hapens after death and thinking about it wastes time HERE AND NOW in the known life. Fear is often of the unknown, I have no fear of death because I know that no matter what happens I DON'T CARE, if you nuts are all right and I go to hell then at least the music is better
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Now that I have read the remaining posts:
I was educated in a C o E primary school, my mum is slightly religious, and I have had a rather brilliant discussion with Jehovahs witnesses (they where doing door to door harassment over the summer holidays, I made the mistake of answering it the bell) where they did use the 'God moves in mysterious ways argument', I have read some of the Koran (so tempted to say know your enemy here but that's racist) .... oh its nearly 1 am, I need sleep, I shall continue tomorrow
Really I am saying I do know about religious stuff. I an almost fascinated by the way people can dedicate their life to what they don't understand and yet not strive to improve that understanding. Working towards knowing about the unknown is my objective and it seems reasonable, following a mysterious force for nothing is just against human curiosity.
What is life other than an indefinitely small speck of an infinite universe?
It's yours.
Not anyone elses. Nobody should hold more power over what you can and can not do. Even if you believe you should not be wasting time with worship and self sacrifice.
If there is no life after death I win and you lose. If there is you who and I gain.
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Class jehovah's witness v.s. our biology teacher today... priceless. What a dick.
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Being influenced and being taught are different things. At the extreme end private schools in America exist which teach the bible as rock solid truth.
Sorry I thought you meant people passing on beliefs to their children not teaching their beliefs as solid truths.
"I can't be arsed because if you feed the fire it will keep burning, bt it you must heres a my main point
massive internal hypocrisy, ie gay bishops, and the proven fact the earth is not at the centre of the universe, sure you say that it's just religion adapting but your adapting against the word of something you believe in, STICK TO YOUR BELIEF AND EARN SOME RESPECT, at least then you're a respectful nutter"
Ah now that is different altogether. For me religeon is my personal views, my views are that some parts of the bible are either wrong, tuaght wrongly or misinturperated. I do no believe there is anything wrong with gays, I know the earth is not the centre of the universe (although I was never aware Christianity teaches agaisnt this.) Christianity has so many diferent forms that it is barely one religeon, hypocrisy isn't exactly surprising or shamefull.
"Yes I know people do, and I can't understand how believing in something bigger than you could be comforting, especially when that big thing proves to be an arse by creating wasting mental illness, paedophiles, tragic deaths, unimaginable criminality etc"
The point of the belief in something bigger is that you know that such things as these have a reason, a purpose and that they will be set right. A murderer will burn in hell while the victim may well live happily in heaven. Personlly I don't think that people would go to hell just for not being christian and if I'm wrong about that (assuming god exists) then god is not worth following.
Also it could be that the devil is allmost or is as poweful as god.
"if you nuts are all right and I go to hell then at least the music is better"
Actualy if us "nuts" are right then you would experiance imense pain in hell. I don't think the devil likes letting people listen to music. Altough having said that one thing I once heard was that in heaven we can all sing hyms all day. In whic case yes please immense pain
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Actualy Jubal I would have done what Jake had done if I was there simply becuase Derrick is also a huge dick. A huge flaccid one that gets shoved up the arseholes of dead cats. .
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Did I say who I thought the dick was? Now you have burned some of my brin cells for no reason. Expect a call from my legal staff.
I have a lot of respect for both Penty's and storm's views. Why? They've thought about them.
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Was the dick Derrick? Bah the only reason you respect my views is becuase if you dont I vill drink from your skull! (yep I've been playing to much m&b lately.)
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I also respect the veiws stormcloud posted in his last one where he mentions a Jehov becuase I at least partialy agree with all of the stuff in one paragraph. I also believe however that just becuase you can't understand another persons beilief that you should accuse them of being morons, ignorant or idiots.
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That arguement was absolute class and if break wasnt 15 mins long i think it would have gone on into the night! :flashy:
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The 70 year old prostitute vs the Jehov. A classic.
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ye