Exilian

Game Design and Project Resources: The Workshops Quarter => The Hall of Lost Designs => Total War Mods - The Engineer's Shed => Mods, Maps & Game Add-Ons - The Bazaar => Extended Rome: Total War => Topic started by: ahowl11 on June 22, 2012, 09:07:43 PM

Title: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 22, 2012, 09:07:43 PM
I have been having some good conversations with Cincinnatus at TWC about sub factions for the Rebels and I have decided to make a project for it. I know the Rebels have this enabled when you highlight one of their cities:

Rebel City (Athenian Rebels) etc.

Now is it possible to make it this?

Rebel City (Athenians) etc.

Also is it possible to do this with other factions? For example:

Gallic Town (Aedui) etc
Greek City (Spartans) etc

Please let me know. I hope Cincinnatus registers here so we can begin work. Others are inclined to join as well.

So here is the format we will be using. I will use the Spartans for example:

Spartans

Sub-Faction to: Greeks
Settlments: Sparta
Unique Troops: Helot troops, Spartan Hoplites, etc
Significance: Was it's own Kingdom, went through reforms etc etc
Leaders: Kleomenes etc
Alternate Campaign: Yes
Goals: unify Greece, defeat Macedonians

Just kind of like a profile for each sub faction to help in the process of making them. It will also help with the map and the making of the AOR system as well as the alternate campaigns! I will wait for Cincinnatus to arrive before I begin. I will keep a log/list of factions completed

Here are the current cities. I will be going in order. They are subject to change.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: Cincinnatus on June 22, 2012, 09:35:46 PM
I am here
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 22, 2012, 09:49:03 PM
Okay then! We shall start with Italy. Now every region has a rebel faction assigned to it, even if they are owned by a regular faction. So, we will start with the obvious in Rome.

Latins or Latin League
Settlement(s): Rome
Unique Troops: Latin Infantry(?) Socii troops
Significance: The Latins were successfully dealt with by Rome in 338 BC. Some of their towns were Romanized while others became partially Roman. During the Social War, they stayed loyal to Rome.
Leaders: N/A
Alternate Campaign: No

Really the question for these guys is did they exist? What Rebel faction will be present if the Romans are defeated or if Rome Revolts? I feel as if they are the logical choice. Thoughts?
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: Jubal on June 22, 2012, 10:05:50 PM
My belief is that it's impossible to subfaction any faction other than the rebels, though I don't have confirmation of that. Furthermore, AFAIK it's impossible to make rebel AIs expansionistic (aka a rebel subfaction is tied to particular provinces). I'd love to be proven wrong on both counts though.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 22, 2012, 10:10:43 PM
Well I am really hoping that I can sub-faction the factions that were not necessarily united. If not, I won't make a big deal about it as they can still be represented by units and geographic location.

As far as the Rebel sub-factions are concerned, I know that they are not going to be expansionistic. If they could be I'd love to know how. My goal would be to make them similar to how they were in EB.

Also I will make it clear when we make certain sub factions to include the fact that there will be a provincial campaign for them, such as Sparta or the Suebi.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: Jubal on June 22, 2012, 10:13:44 PM
I'm pretty sure you can't subfaction them, though you can do things like province-restricted buildings and recruitment which can go a long way towards simulating that I guess.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 22, 2012, 10:23:08 PM
Yeah that's what I will plan on doing. We will see what happens.

Updated OP and Latin Post. Seems like the Latins will be the first sub-faction confirmed on this forum. My only other choice would have to be Roman Rebels or something. I will wait a little while before moving on to the next one just in case something changes.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: comrade_general on June 23, 2012, 03:20:20 AM
Quote from: ahowl11 on June 22, 2012, 09:07:43 PM
Now is it possible to make it this?

Rebel City (Athenians) etc.

Also is it possible to do this with other factions? For example:

Gallic Town (Aedui) etc
Greek City (Spartans) etc

Just change their name in the rebel name file in the text folder.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 23, 2012, 03:22:12 AM
Okay glad it's that simple!
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: comrade_general on June 23, 2012, 03:24:51 AM
There are a lot of unused rebel 'factions' listed in there that you can use if you need more options. You probably already know the rebel factions are specified in the descr_regions file.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 23, 2012, 04:08:13 AM
Yes, I did know that. One thing though, it's not very difficult to add new rebel sub factions is it? I know that there is a tutorial about it on the org but if I remember correctly people still had issues
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: comrade_general on June 23, 2012, 04:25:34 AM
The easiest thing to do would be to use those extra rebel factions. Change their name in the text file and their units via the descr_rebel_factions file.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 23, 2012, 04:51:18 AM
Alright then. I will definitely have to take a look at it when I get back home
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: Cincinnatus on June 23, 2012, 06:30:09 AM
Roman Rebels may work fairly well too.  Since Rome had a few rebellions or civil wars (Marc Anthony/Octavian, Sulla, Spartacus, Pompey/Ceasar).
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 23, 2012, 07:10:59 PM
I think Roman Rebels could be a different sub faction though. Maybe they would pop up when cities have low public order or something. I will stick to the Latins.

Now I will finish up the minor players in Italy:

Etruscans
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlements: Arretium
Unique Troops: Etruscan Hoplites (?)
Significance: Were barely hanging around at this point, and were located around Arretium. The Romans conquered Arretium in the late 4th centurey BC. The Etruscans were involved in the Third Samnite War which ended in 290 BC, and the Romans campaigned against them in the years after that. I believe the Etruscans were fully subdued sometime in the 260's BC. So my thought would be for maybe some scripted armies to appear now and then until a certain time period or maybe until a certain building is built in Arretium.
Alternate Campaign: No

Umbrians
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlement(s): Ariminum
Unique Troops: Umbrian Hillmen (?)
Significance: Really they would pretty much be exactly as the Etruscans. Right now Ariminum is not a city. Instead it is Caesena. I don't know if Rome owned this city or not in 280.. My sources say Rome didn't take Ariminum until 268 BC. So we will have to see.
Alternate Campaign: No

Piceni
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlement(s): Ancona
Unique Troops: Piceni Spearmen (?)
Significance: Not much is really known about them, except that they lived on the east coast of Italy where Ancona is. Would probably not appear much.
Alternate Campaign: No

Campanians
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlement(s): Capua
Unique Troops: Campanian Hoplites (?) Campanian Cavalry (?)
Significance: I believe they were fully subdued by the Romans at this time as Capua was one of Rome's most important allied cities. Nonetheless they offer good AOR troops.
Alternate Campaign: No

Samnites
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlement(s): Malventum
Unique Troops: Samnite Spearmen, Samnite Swordsmen (?)
Significance: Were finally subdued in 290 BC, but it's only ten years after that. I believe they could still be hostile, and maybe pop up if Pyrrhus is successful. They were major players in the Social War.
Alternate Campaign: No

*Lucanians, Bruttians, Messapians, Marsi
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlements: Varies. Essentially none, but the Lucanians could have Tarentum, Messapians Croton, and Bruttians Rhegium if given the oppurtunity maybe? Reason that I am not sure is the fact that Tarentum would be the Tarentines, and Croton and Rhegium as their own city states.
Unique Troops: Lucanian Skirmishers (?) Bruttian Infantry (?) Marsian Spearmen (?)
Significance: They might not even make it as sub-factions, hence the asterix. The only way these peoples would get represented is by their units. However I have an idea that even though Tarentum would be owned by the Greeks, that a Lucanian army could still pop up in the area? Or the Marsians could pop up randomly throughout Italy?
Alternate Campaign: No

Ligurians
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlement(s): Genua
Unique Troops: Ligurian Infantry (?) Ligurian Cavalry (?) Ligurian Skirmshers (?)
Significance: The Ligurians were their own people, many ancient scholars place them around Massilia and even as far as Iberia. However they were located around Genua (their main city). They were used a lot as mercenaries for Carthage and Greek city states. They were finally subdued by the Romans in the 2nd century BC
Alternate Campaign: No

Veneti
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlement(s): Patavium
Unique Troops: Veneti Hoplites (?) Veneti Skirmishers
Significance: Were around until at least the 2nd Punic War where they allied with Rome and sent troops to Rome to aid them when Hannibal was campaigning. In 302 BC they were attacked by a Spartan Naval force but they captured and destroyed their ships. They warred with Celtic peoples in the area and allied with the Cenomani. The Veneti are debated to be Illyrian but they could also be Italian, or even a mix.
Alternate Campaign: No

Croton
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlement(s): Croton
Unique Troops: None
Significance: A greek city state, I believe Rome had occupied Croton a little before 280 BC due to Lucanian and Bruttian Raids. Also I believe this occupation sparked the conflict with Tarentum. Crotn defected to Hannibal and served as his base of operations during the 2nd Punic War.
Alternate Campaign: No

Mamertines at Rhegium
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlement(s): Rhegium
Unique Troops: Mamertine Infantry (?)
Significance: Another greek city state, it's Roman garrison defected to the Mamertines in 280 BC as the garrison consisted of mainly Campanian troops of similar stock to the Mamertines. Held off Bruttian raids, and Pyrrhus. Was captured by the Romans in the late 270's BC and the traitors were taken to Rome for trial and execution.
Alternate Campaign: No

Okay so there are all of the minor sub-factions that could possibly be encountered in the campaign. Notice how I put a '(?)' after most of the troops. That is because I still need to figure out what I want to do for units in the Italian AOR. I could do what RTR Platinum and just make 'Italian Troops' or I could go with the proposed units above.

Now onto the three Major sub-factions, that will be playable through alternate campaigns:

Insubres
Sub-faction to: Rebels, Gauls
Settlement(s): Medilanium, Accerae
Unique Troops: Insubres Infantry (?) Insubres Cavalry (?)
Significance: The Insubres will represent the Cisalpine Gauls who were not finally subdued until after the second Punic War.
Alternate Campaign: Yes, through the Gauls faction
Goals: Hold Northern Italian Provinces, defeat Romans

Boii
Sub-faction to: Rebels, Gauls
Settlements: Bononia, a settlement yet to be determined north of Pannonia
Unique Troops: Boii Infantry (?)
Significance: The Boii were an interesting faction who were split. Half being in nothern Italy and half being in south-eastern germany. They will be fun to play as in my mind. Right now Felsina is Bononia.
Alternate Campaign: Yes, through the Gauls faction
Goals: Hold Northern Italian and Pannonian Provinces, defeat Illyrians

Tarentum
Sub-faction to Rebels, Greeks
Settlements: Tarentum
Unique Troops: Tarentine Leukaspides (?), Tarentine Cavalry (?)
Significance: The strongest city state in Italy, the Tarentines began a War with Rome that drew Pyrrhus into Italy. They will be allied to Epirus and should aid in the fight with Rome. If successful they could turn on Epirus, take Rome, or venture to Sicily. It will be a tough campaign but worth the challenge.
Alternate Campaign: Yes, through the Greek faction
Goals: Take southern Italian Provinces, Syracuse, defeat faction Rome

So all of Italy is now represented, if anyone has any more suggestions for Italian peoples let them be known. However if you do, please use cities from the city list in the OP. I will move on to Sicily and Sardinia/Corsica later.



Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: Cincinnatus on June 24, 2012, 07:48:46 PM
Careful about the Veneti, it was the same name of a Major Gallic Tribe in Gaul (France).  It may do to do with out or just leave it as Boii for that region.  You can make up your own units or use other mods for inspirations. 

Boii no doubt had some good spearmen, though not as good as the Germanic people who arguably had the best.  In fact, Germany most likely translates from Old German for "Land of the Spear".  Boii probably had light cavalry and perhaps even chariots.  They could also have had one handed axmen with shields and good light skirmisher small spear throwers ( a very widely common style of fighting among the celtic people and thrace and germany for that matter).

Etrurians very likely had chariots so even if the Boii did not at first, they may well have copied and improved on the Etrurians.  Etruscans are often also said to have had archers, slingers, some small units of heavy horse and or bodyguards, axmen, hoplites.  Axman may have just had armor with no shields and have been 2 handed even.  A style likely copied from the old Minoans or Carians (who may well have in fact been Minoan settlers themselves).

If you plan to incorporate all subfactions that is a tall order.  Technically btw, the etrurians were roughly divided into 3 major factions.  Etruscans was known as Tyrrhēni to the latins (including Rome), and Tyrrhēnioi to the Greeks.  These names are still reflected today in some place names.

A Etrurian (in their own language it was Rasenna Dodecapoli (etrurian league fo 12 city states), or the name Etrurians called themselves) League comprised most of the better known major cities such as Veia, Celvsin, Aritim (Arrētium in latin), Perusna, Velch and others. 

Another League was the Campanian League.  This was arguably Etrurians becoming independent of the north or a mix of other peoples certifying their new freedom as the north lost influence. 

The third league was supposedly based in northern Italy, and may have been lead by either Arimna (Ariminum in latin) or Felsna.  It may have been simply called the Northern League.  It was north of the Dodecapoli.

You may also include perhaps Aequi, old enemies of Rome.  Perhaps they were even rival latins.  Though they may have not have been much if still around by this time. they were certain at one time a formidable Roman enemy.

There was also the Sabines, but like the Aequi may not have been around or enough numbers to add.  This is if you are considering all peoples to potentially add though.

Brennus, the leader of a celt tribe called the Senones, sacked Rome a little over 100 years earlier.  So they, if they were still around may have been another formidable people in Italy.

Croton may have Croton named version of what Tarantine has.  Such as Tarentine Cavalry (that being the exception since it was a popular horse unit type all over the Greek world), and hoplies.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 24, 2012, 10:31:10 PM
Thanks for the info, I honestly wish that I could add all of these units in, but there are limits. 500 slots for edu and 250 for DMB. I know ALX has more slots for the DMB but not many people have ALX. Plus ALX doesn't support some features from BI that we would need.

Overall, I am glad you are posting the information on the various troop types and other peoples. Please continue to do so in the future as I am going to go back to these posts when I start making units for the rebels and AOR.

I will see about the Veneti, I rather have the Italian Veneti than the Gallic Veneti

Aequi and Sabines along with the Volsci were of little importance at this time if I'm correct.

The Senones were around but I don't have a settlement for them to use. I might add a unit for them though. Same can be said for the Cenomani
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 25, 2012, 04:22:46 AM
I will now start on Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica:

Mamertines of Messana
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlement(s): Messana
Unique Troops: Mamertine Infantry (?)
Significance: The Mamertines essentially were a group of Mercenaries who had no job after the Samnite War. They ended up seizing Messana for themselves and terrorized the countryside. After losing a few battles against Syracuse they saw that they were about to be conquered when they sent appeals for help to both Rome and Carthage, and the rest is history.
Alternate Campaign: No

Agrigentum
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlement(s): Agrigentum
Unique Troops: None
Significance: Was an independant city of Importance around this time, experienced many hardships during the first Punic War.
Alternate Campaign: No

Sicilians
Sub-Faction to: Rebels
Settlement(s): Lilybaeum
Unique Troops: Sicilian pearmen (?)
Significance: The Sicilians will be the representative for the Sicels, Sicani, and Elymians. The three major tribes that inhabited Sicily. They could likely have armies pop up frequently.
Alternate Campaign: No

Nuragici
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlement(s): Caralis, Aleria
Unique Troops: Nuragic Warriors (?), Nuragic Archers (?)
Significance: The Nuragic Civilization is mysterious and I believe associated with the Sea Peoples from the Bronze Age. The Nuragic population was under Carthaginian control when it revolted in the Mercenary War of 238 BC. Also the Nuragici fought a Roman Army during the Second Punic War, and lost.
Alternate Campaign: No

Now for the playable faction of Sicily, Syracuse.

Syracuse
Sub-faction to: Rebels, Greeks
Settlement(s): Syracuse
Unique Troops: Syracusan Hoplites (?) Syracusan Cavalry (?)
Significance: Was a powerful Kingdom at the time and played a crucial role in the starting of the First Punic War. Ended up becoming an Ally of Rome until 212 BC I believe.
Alternate Campaign: Yes, through the Greek Faction
Goals: Take and hold all Sicilian Provinces, defeat Carthage


Another chapter in this project has been completed, as with Italy please give your thoughts. When I get the chance I will move on to North Africa
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 28, 2012, 03:57:24 AM
On to North Africa!

Libyans
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlement(s): Carthage, Thapsus, Leptis, Hadrumentum, Utica, Hippo
Unique Troops: Libyan Spearmen, Libyan Infantry (?) Libyan Skirmishers (?) Libyan Cavalry (?)
Significance: The Libyans made up all of the indigenous population that Carthage had to choose from in North Africa. They might be the biggest sub-faction in the game!
Alternate Campaign: No

Massylii
Sub-faction to: Rebels, Numidians
Settlement(s): Capsa
Unique Troops: Massylii Skirmishers, Massylii Cavalry
Significance: The eastern most Numidians who had closer ties to Carthage and were rivals to the Masaesyli.
Alternate Campaign: Yes, through the Numidian faction
Goals: Unite Numidian Tribes, conquer North Africa, defeat Carthage

Masaesyli
Sub-faction to: Rebels, Numidians
Settlement(s): Cirta
Unique Troops: Masaesyli Spearmen, Masaesyli Lancers
Significance: The western most Numidians who had closer ties to Rome and were rivals to the Massylii.
Alternate Campaign: Yes, through the Numidian faction
Goals: Unite Numidian Tribes, conquer North Africa, defeat Carthage

Gaetuli
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlement(s): Dimmidi, Nepte
Unique Troops: Gaetulian Infantry (?)
Significance: I people of similar stock as the Numidians but had darker skin color. They were conquered by Rome in 6AD
Alternate Campaign: No

Mauri
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlement(s): Volubilis, Iol
Unique Troops: Mauri Archers (?) Mauri Spearmen (?) Mauri Cavalry (?)
Significance: The tribe that inhabited what would become The Kingdom of Mauretania, eventually became the Moors.
Alternate Campaign: No

Garamantes
Sub-faction to: Rebels
Settlement(s): Garama
Unique Troops: Garamantine Infantry (?)
Significance: Located south of Leptis this civilization lasted to about 600 AD. They were herders and irrigationists who raided Roman outposts frequently. Apparently they had good trade relations with Carthage.
Alternate Campaign: No

Again if anyone has advice about North Africa, please comment. Iberia will be next!



Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: comrade_general on June 28, 2012, 12:09:30 PM
It's all looking good so far. :) How powerful will these unique units be?
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 28, 2012, 05:33:12 PM
I do not know exactly. I would like them to be unique and not similar to a faction's main roster. What do you think?
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: comrade_general on June 28, 2012, 11:12:00 PM
It all depends on how you use them methinks. How will they be used? AoR? Mercs?
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 28, 2012, 11:35:57 PM
Mainly AOR with the most well-known being Mercs
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: comrade_general on June 29, 2012, 12:43:40 AM
Regular AoR guys should get average stats based on their respective location in a recruitment tree. For instance I would give those Massylii Skirmishers similar stats to other low-grade skirmishers.
Mercs would naturally have higher stats overall.
Just my two cents.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 29, 2012, 07:13:47 PM
Sounds logical to me. What about basing every units' stats off the EDU-matic tool?
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: comrade_general on June 30, 2012, 01:21:04 AM
Amazingly enough I've never heard of this tool. It looks quite complicated.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 30, 2012, 02:38:32 AM
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=311674

Tell me what you think? Should I use it?
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: comrade_general on June 30, 2012, 01:29:34 PM
Sure, it's worth a try.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 30, 2012, 07:31:34 PM
It's a little confusing to be honest  :-\
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: comrade_general on June 30, 2012, 08:36:16 PM
Can it be used to re-balance the edu after it has been made? That would be easier; just add the units in with similar stats as vanilla and then use the tool.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 30, 2012, 10:41:36 PM
Well thats one thing that has also confused me. Should I make the EDU and then edit each units stats after I implement them? Or should I make their stats as soon as they are made and ready to be implemented? Another question is this: should I just get a barebones EDU and start from their?
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: comrade_general on June 30, 2012, 11:25:32 PM
It's really all up to you, but I usually make the edu as I go and then sometimes go back and change some of the stats.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on June 30, 2012, 11:59:18 PM
So starting with a bare EDU is probably best?
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: comrade_general on July 01, 2012, 12:49:23 AM
I'm not saying it's the best way, but it's what I do.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on July 01, 2012, 01:05:01 AM
Okay it seems logical to do it that way
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: debux on July 01, 2012, 02:46:01 AM
Just wanted to give in my two cents about something that was mentioned before: maybe mercs and AoR units could be the same (that the merc units would be actually the rebel units, but available for recruitment through AoR or as mercenaries). The idea for differentiating their roles would be that AoR units would be rather inexperienced (as they are levied, and most of the time unwillingly by the faction that conquered their lands), whereas the merc units would have a pair of experience chevrons, to indicate that they fight willingly, and have been doing so for a while (as it is their profession)
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on July 01, 2012, 04:15:38 AM
How would I be able to simulate that?
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: debux on July 01, 2012, 05:48:38 PM
Just by giving the AoR units regular stats (nothing too powerful), yet giving the mercs a few experience chevrons... was that your question?
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: comrade_general on July 01, 2012, 05:49:35 PM
That's essentially what I said. :P
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on July 01, 2012, 10:39:42 PM
But regular units can also be mercenaries?
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: debux on July 04, 2012, 04:47:35 AM
Quote from: comrade_general on July 01, 2012, 05:49:35 PM
That's essentially what I said. :P

Sorry, might have scrolled a bit to quick there :P I thought it was said, but I've been rather brain dead lately.

Yeah, IIRC, you just have to make them recruitable as mercenaries (in the txt file that makes them recruitable for the campaign map, although I don't know it's name)
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on July 04, 2012, 06:28:38 PM
I see. By the way, debux check your messages at TWC it's important :)
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: Cincinnatus on July 04, 2012, 08:55:04 PM
There must be a way to distinguish Gallic Venetii from Italiae Veneti?  I know the Gallic Venetii gave the Romans a hard time, so they were a fairly major Gallic tribe, they also inspired Romans to change ship designs. 

The Garamantes, probably would be light and fast with high attack and low armor, but good large shields.  Average defense skill with little or no armor as well.

Numidians even lighter and faster, no armor, small shields, whether on foot or horseback.  High missile attack but low melee attack and defense comparatively.

All Magna Grecia factions would have very high armor good shields and at least good spear units with great attack and defense but would be a bit slower.  However, unless they are militia units, they would have fairly high staminas.

Celtic/Gallic Factions would be in general light, fast, with High attack, good defense skill but little or no armor.  They would perhaps have impetuous and or a war cry effect to boost attack.

Etruscans for the most part copied alot from their Greek traders, though did have some of their own cultural spin and a few fairly unique unit types to them.  So mostly the same type of hoplites with chariots and axmen.  They would also have access to some Roman and or Latin type units such as light swordsmen.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on July 04, 2012, 09:06:45 PM
Sounds very good to me! I hope to get this started again with Iberia and then Gaul :)

I would like to have both Veneti. Maybe there is a different name for of them?
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: Cincinnatus on July 04, 2012, 09:32:01 PM
Paleoveneti is another name for the Italian Veneti, maybe you could use that?  Homer is believed to have called them Eneti, a Illyrian tribe that migrated into Italy.  So either name may work better.

Libyans would have a wide range of troops and types.  Mods have had them with 4 horse chariots. They were known to have invaded Egypt as part of the sea peoples invasions long ago.  In origin, the Libyans are believed to have been a colonizing Greek Tribe called the Libu who probably intermixed with local tribes like the Temehu.  When they worked for Carthage they could have had anything from heavy infantry and light skirmishers to heavy and light cavalry.  In ancient times they were known to use swords (some of which may have been copied off the minoans or Philistines), spears, the Meshwesh sure had some distinguished spears (another native tribe of Libya), and chariots, that could have been carried over from Greece if that story of their origin is true and it is probable it could well be, or Egyptians.   

Iberia had many tribes:

Cantabrian - nw spain
Lustonian - sw iberia, basically much of modern portugal, or northern modern day portugal depending on which map or history you read.
Celt-Iberian - approximately Central Spain
Oretani - sw spain on the border with the new carthage settlement area not the city
Lacetani - ne spain, in and around modern day barcelona
Aquetani  ( or Iacetani) - north central spain along the pyrenese , and north and south of it
Carpetani - south central spain, south of the celt iberians
Calleci (or Gallici) - nw spain in the corner
Celtici - sw iberia (south of Lustonians)
Vettones - sw central spain, east of Lusitonians and west of carpetani
Turdetani - central south spain
Edetani - north of new carthage, western iberia
Bastetani - se spain, right outside the area around new carthage
Ilegetae - between Lacetani and Iacetani in north east spain
Baleares - Baleric Islands
Astures - between cantabri and Calleci nw spain
Vaccaei - south of astures


Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on July 04, 2012, 09:39:11 PM
Wouldn't the Libyans be different near Carthage than they would near Egypt? Or were they the same people?
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: Cincinnatus on July 04, 2012, 09:52:32 PM
If you want to distinguish and have Libyans of the Carthagenian Empire and Native Libyans, yes they would probably be different.  I would say, not as heavy armor.  No hoplite like units.  Heavy spearmen is a maybe yes or maybe no thing.  I would say probably at least light or medium cavalry or both, spearmen, skirmishers, maybe even heavy spearmen but probably not as good armor or weapons as that of carthage libyans.  And I would probably say, chariots too.  Maybe archers, but maybe not slingers.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on July 04, 2012, 10:04:12 PM
I thought chariots were fading at this point in history?

so far there will be scythed chariots for the Seleucids and Pontus, maybe Bactria and then there are the British Chariots
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: comrade_general on July 04, 2012, 10:06:48 PM
Libyans with chariots??
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on July 04, 2012, 10:31:03 PM
I do not believe Libyans had chariots in 280 BC. They probably had them back in New Kingdom Egypt
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: Cincinnatus on July 10, 2012, 09:23:39 PM
"The Asbystae adjoin the Gilligammae upon the west. They inhabit the regions above Cyrene, but do not reach to the coast, which belongs to the Cyrenaeans. Four-horse chariots are in more common use among them than among any other Libyans. In most of their customs they ape the manners of the Cyrenaeans. Westward of the Asbystae dwell the Auschisae, who possess the country above Barca, reaching, however, to the sea at the place called Euesperides. In the middle of their territory is the little tribe of the Cabalians, which touches the coast near Tauchira, a city of the Barcaeans. Their customs are like those of the Libyans above Cyrene. "

from
On Libya, from The Histories, c. 430 BCE by Herodotus

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herod-libya1.asp

Here:  A History of Cavalry from the Earliest Times: With Lessons for the Future
 By George Taylor Denison

Mentions that Libyans used war chariots at least as late as 559 bc.  Though he says they were used to transport warriors.

The question should not be if they had them.  They very likely did.  The question is, did they use them for war at this time?
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on July 10, 2012, 09:50:18 PM
I don't know, is their any Ptolemaic or Roman records that could maybe clear the issue up?
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: Cincinnatus on July 10, 2012, 09:59:20 PM
Not sure.  It seems however that Greeks copied chariot warfare from the Libyans probably then before the Trojan war.  And Romans in some ways copied the chariot from Libya.  I would say likely if it was used at all still in warfare, it was used to launch javelins from.  That type of use is described.  In previous uses of chariot warfare.

So far the latest use in war I find is about 559, but chariots were still in use in libya by 430 bc as well as in Roman times for races, trade, transport, cargo, and merchants at least.  Warfare is still iffy.  I have seen other mods use Libyan Chariots, but in case they are mercs and called libyan.  It might be more correct to say Cyrenacian as it seems they used chariots the longest of all Libyan peoples.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on July 10, 2012, 10:17:18 PM
Hmm well I don't know if I should include it or not to be honest
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: comrade_general on July 11, 2012, 01:24:04 AM
I would say not, unless you really need them to fill a recruitment void.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: debux on July 11, 2012, 08:41:24 PM
Same as above... unless you want chariots to be OP in autoresolve, and you want Cyrenaica to be independent for a long time.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: Agamemnon on July 16, 2012, 03:01:03 AM
By the way, you're going to have to make rebel units, mercs, and AoR units the same. Why? Because a rebel faction cannot recruit troops even if they are assigned to be able to unless the faction they are the subfaction of can. So if Carthage can't recruit, say, Poeni Infantry, neither can the Libyans, even if in EDB it says they can.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on July 16, 2012, 03:27:19 AM
Yeah I know how it works. Once I get everything sorted out, I will decide which units will go where.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: Phoenixguard09 on August 14, 2012, 02:26:02 AM
Agreed with above on the Libyan chariots. The people of the British Isles are commonly regarded as the last to use chariots in warfare, and even they used them as transport for the rich warriors rather than shock troops.

I can't think of any resource which definitively states that the chariot saw any substantial use on the battlefield in North Africa during the mod's time frame, and the general opinion is that chariots were pretty much faded out by this stage anyway. So yeah, I'd go against them.
Title: Re: The Sub-Factions Project
Post by: ahowl11 on August 14, 2012, 06:48:40 AM
It seems like we have a unanimous vote on the issue..