Exilian

Game Design and Project Resources: The Workshops Quarter => Rome - Total Realism => Mods, Maps & Game Add-Ons - The Bazaar => RTR 0.5 Imperial Campaign => Topic started by: ahowl11 on January 19, 2014, 12:17:10 AM

Title: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 19, 2014, 12:17:10 AM
Alright, I hope you all know what units you want out of the mod, more than likely we will agree and see eye to eye on most units. Basically in the OP I will have a list of every vanilla faction (with the name of the faction that they will turn into in parenthesis) and their units. Then using the wonderful Strikethrough editor we will cross out any unit who is unworthy of RTR! I might include a *note on certain units depending on how this goes.

Rules/Things to know:
1.Peasants MAY have to stay in due to a revolt CTD bug that RTRPE experienced by deleting peasant units. There may be a way around this if we moved the worst infantry unit of each faction to be recruited by the governor's house, it will require testing.

2. DO NOT post anything regarding new units. This thread is specifically for which units stay in and which get thrown out. Another thread will be created regarding new units when this thread has fulfilled it's purpose.

3. Suggestions to change unit names and recruitment are allowed though, since many units have wrong names and recruitment in vanilla.

Check this thread regularly for updates, I'll try to post all the factions up ASAP. For now let's start with Egypt.

Egypt (The Ptolemaic Empire)
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Julii, Brutii, Scipii, Senate (The Roman Republic)
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Carthage (The Republic of Carthage)
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Macedon (The Antigonid Kingdom)
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Seleucids (The Seleucid Empire)
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Greeks (The Greek City States)
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Parthia (Parthians)
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Pontus (The Kingdom of Pontus)
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Armenia (The Kingdom of Armenia)
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Numidia
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Gaul (Gauls)
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Britons (Celtic Tribes)
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Germans (Germans)
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Dacia (Geto-Dacians)
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Scythia (Sarmatians)
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Spain (Iberians)
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Thrace (Illyrians)
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Rebels & Mercenaries
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Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Bercor on January 19, 2014, 12:41:36 AM
Well, if we want to go with historical accuracy, will have to redo completely the Ptolemaic roster. It's, by far, the most unhistorical roster in the game.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 19, 2014, 02:06:55 AM
Ptolemies updated according to how I think it should be. Subject to change. Will put up more factions shortly.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 19, 2014, 04:30:17 AM
Every Faction with Every unit has been listed. Please read through and post your thoughts and ideas.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Sigma on January 19, 2014, 10:47:11 PM
Ptolemies should have African Elephants and War Elephants recruitable in Meroe or Axum? There were a couple of recorded battles of Egypt using Elephants. Also the Carthaginians and Egyptians used African Elephants (obviously) which were smaller and faster than then the Indian Elephants used by Parthia and the Seleucids. But the Indian Elephants were more durable and supposedly the African Elephants couldn't stand the smell and sounds of the Indian Elephants.

Also I can't remember where I read it but Parthians did use elephants, but not on a large scale like the other ancient empires did. Maybe have them only recruitable from one settlement like Taxila for the Parthians?

If you add Beserkers take away the Beserker ability as it is over powered and broken. You can literally take out multiple units with a unit in "beserk mode".

Both Greeks and Romans used Ballistas and Romans used Onagers. I'm against giving every faction onagers since that was Rome's thing. They're known for their siege engineering and other factions getting that would steal the thunder from Rome.

The druids should be ditched all together.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 20, 2014, 04:54:33 AM
I'm keeping Elephants and War Elephants but Armoured Elephants are the ones in question.
The game incorrectly uses the African Elephant for the Seleucids when there is an Indian Elephant model/texture available, that will be fixed.
Okay, I'll keep the Parthian War Elephants as AOR.

Berserkers will be nerfed.
Okay, but I am still iffy on even the Romans having them. How often were they used? If only a few times, what's the point of having them in you know?

Yeah, I might get rid of the Druids all together but I thought it might be cool to have them as an officer. If it's not historical I can leave them out but I thought they accompanied troops into battle?
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Fëanáro on January 20, 2014, 02:10:33 PM
Quote from: ahowl11 on January 20, 2014, 04:54:33 AM
I'm keeping Elephants and War Elephants but Armoured Elephants are the ones in question.
The game incorrectly uses the African Elephant for the Seleucids when there is an Indian Elephant model/texture available, that will be fixed.
Okay, I'll keep the Parthian War Elephants as AOR.

Berserkers will be nerfed.
Okay, but I am still iffy on even the Romans having them. How often were they used? If only a few times, what's the point of having them in you know?

Yeah, I might get rid of the Druids all together but I thought it might be cool to have them as an officer. If it's not historical I can leave them out but I thought they accompanied troops into battle?

You could have druids as ancillaries.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Fëanáro on January 20, 2014, 02:20:15 PM
I would also advise you to get rid of (Or nerf) the more powerful "native" Roman cavalry units. They should have auxiliaries and mercenaries as their high-tier cavalry units, like they did historically. Because in vanilla, you had jarring things like Roman Cavalry being better than their counterparts from every faction (Which was a serious problem for all Roman units).
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Bercor on January 20, 2014, 02:29:07 PM
Ptolemaic Empire: I'd get rid of nubian cavalry and only mantain the infantry. The slingers and the skirmishers would need a reskin.

Rome: Seems good. I'd only change the armoured general shield to a round one.

Carthage: Good. I'd left the slingers and the skirmishers.

Antigonid Kingdom: Good.

Seulecid Empire: I've seen some modern depictions of seleucid armoured elephants and most mods (europa barbarorum and roma surrectum for example) use them. Personally, I would do the same.

Greek City States: Good. Make Spartan hoplites an AOR unit.

Parthia: Good.

Pontus: I'd ditch the chariot archers.

Armenia: Good.

Numidia: Good.

Gauls: Give them slingers and archers.

Britons: Good.

Germans: I'd ditch the screeching woman. I don't like the ideia of them as officers. I know they acompanied the soldiers to battle, but, as a rule, they didn't fight, they remain in the background encouraging the men.  Get rid of bersekers, chosen axeman and gothic cavalry. The first because they were vikings, the second because the germans didn't use almost any axes, the third because there's already a germanic noble cavalry and that's enough. Also, I'd change the night riders axe for a spear and the axeman for a cub. The chosen archers should be replaced by a light archer unit.

Dacia: The chosen archers should be replaced by a light archer unit.

Scythia: I'd ditch the chosen archers.

Iberians: No General's Armoured Bodyguard. Otherwise, good.

Illyrians: Militia hoplites replaced with illyrian hoplites. No General's Armoured Bodyguard.

Mercenaries/Rebels: Good.

In regards to the onager question, I'm personally againt all tipes of artillery except the roman scorpion, since with was the only one that was actually used in a field battle. I also think that the manner onagers and ballistas destroy walls in this game is highly unrealistic, so I wouldn't use them. But, if they have to remain for gameplay reasons I would the  give the onagers to the romans to, as Sigma said, represent their engineering ability.







Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 20, 2014, 05:06:18 PM
In regards to the Roman Cavalry, their name will be changed to Alae Cavalry similar to RTRPE and with their stats being adjusted in the new EDU, they should not be as powerful.

Okay let's ditch Chosen Archers altogether.
Gothic Cavalry will go too.
Pontic Chariots? I'm not sure yet. RTRPE has them, but other mods don't.
I thought the Germans used Axemen?

I'll get rid of Screeching Women and Druids. Feanaro, great idea, we can make Druids an ancillary.

Regarding Siege Weapons: I'm against Scorpions for this reason:
Quote
Then, there's also the annoying bug which forces besieging AI to just sit in the field outside city walls if they have a scorpion in their army stack. The only solution to that seems to fast forward until the timer runs out [unless you have sufficient garrison troops to face the AI in the field; but then you wouldn't allow the siege to take place anyway]. I tried to fix the bug by giving scorpion missiles a small damage to walls, hoping that the AI would waste their ammo and proceed with the attack. Did not work, they're still just sitting in the field.
- Slaists from TWC

I'd rather not keep Onagers, but Ballistas only.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: b257 on January 20, 2014, 05:07:33 PM
I agree with Bercor for the most part. I do think the Seleucids should have armored elephants, I mean I have seen them in modern illustrations and texts, so maybe they should be included.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 20, 2014, 05:09:09 PM
Okay, sounds good to me. What about Carthage? I'd think that they wouldn't have them due to the fact that they used African Elephants
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Fëanáro on January 20, 2014, 05:30:29 PM
Any "Gothic" units should go. Goths aren't going to be around for some centuries.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Bercor on January 20, 2014, 06:02:52 PM
Quote from: ahowl11 on January 20, 2014, 05:06:18 PM
What about Carthage? I'd think that they wouldn't have them due to the fact that they used African Elephants

Yes, Carthage shouldn't have armoured elephants like in vannila, only war elephants.

Quote from: ahowl11 on January 20, 2014, 05:06:18 PM
In regards to the Roman Cavalry, their name will be changed to Alae Cavalry similar to RTRPE and with their stats being adjusted in the new EDU, they should not be as powerful.

Okay let's ditch Chosen Archers altogether.
Gothic Cavalry will go too.

Good.

Quote from: ahowl11 on January 20, 2014, 05:06:18 PM
Pontic Chariots? I'm not sure yet. RTRPE has them, but other mods don't.

Chariots with archers were outdated in this time, they were very vulnerable, dependent of the terrain and an easy prey to light cavalry. All and all, they seem to me rather impractical and should go out.

Quote from: ahowl11 on January 20, 2014, 05:06:18 PM
I thought the Germans used Axemen?

Actually, no, that's a myth (probably inspired in the vikings). The two most common weapons between the germanic people were spears and cubs. The nobles that could afford used swords. An axe would be rather rare, let alone one unit composed exclusively by axeman.

Quote from: ahowl11 on January 20, 2014, 05:06:18 PM
I'll get rid of Screeching Women and Druids. Feanaro, great idea, we can make Druids an ancillary.

Excellent ideia.

Quote from: ahowl11 on January 20, 2014, 05:06:18 PM
Regarding Siege Weapons: I'm against Scorpions for this reason:
Quote
Then, there's also the annoying bug which forces besieging AI to just sit in the field outside city walls if they have a scorpion in their army stack. The only solution to that seems to fast forward until the timer runs out [unless you have sufficient garrison troops to face the AI in the field; but then you wouldn't allow the siege to take place anyway]. I tried to fix the bug by giving scorpion missiles a small damage to walls, hoping that the AI would waste their ammo and proceed with the attack. Did not work, they're still just sitting in the field.
- Slaists from TWC

I'd rather not keep Onagers, but Ballistas only.

Ah, ok, didn't knew about that bug. In that case I'd ditch all artillery, since ballistas are impractical in the field and rather pointless in a siege against a settlement with more than a wodden palisade. Do what you think is best.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Jubal on January 20, 2014, 06:20:43 PM
I don't know, but I'm willing to place a non-monetary bet that you could fool RTW into thinking that scorpions were ballistae (thus solving the AI issue) whilst having them keep the look & functionality of scorpions.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 20, 2014, 06:26:27 PM
How so?
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Bercor on January 20, 2014, 06:41:13 PM
Quote from: ahowl11 on January 20, 2014, 06:26:27 PM
How so?

A reskinned ballista with the animations of the scorpion?
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Jubal on January 20, 2014, 06:44:36 PM
Shouldn't even need to reskin anything, use the scorpion model, anims, etc, but changing the descr_engines entry so it's got the "ballista" class. Can't say if it's doable without testing or how much of a faff it might be but worth thinking about.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 20, 2014, 06:51:05 PM
If you have time, could you try it out? I'm trying to add in the RS2 settlement trees at the moment.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 22, 2014, 08:25:22 PM
Edited list.
Chosen Archers and Gothic Cavalry crossed out, Druids mad ancillary, Onagers crossed out for every faction except Rome.

@Mausolos

Did Germans use axes around this time? What about Night Raiders?
Pontic Chariot Archer, in or out?
Did Rome uses Onagers extensively enough that they should be included in the mod?
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Bercor on January 22, 2014, 08:46:31 PM
The night raiders should be renamed "Harii Warriors" or something alike:

"As for the Harii, not only are they superior and strength to the other peoples I have just mentioned, but they minister to their savage instincts by trickery and clever timing. They black their shields and dye their bodies, and choose pitch dark nights for their battles. The shadowy, awe-inpsiring appearance of such a ghoulish army inpsires mortal panic; for no enemy can endure a sight so strange and hellish. Defeat in battle starts always with the eyes." Tacitus, Germania
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 22, 2014, 08:53:08 PM
That could be something that we add to the Unit description!
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Mausolos of Caria on January 22, 2014, 08:56:41 PM
Ah thanks for the questions  ;) Not sure about the axes but I sent a message to a friend who knows everything about the Germanic tribes and will reply here once he's informed me.

Pontic chariot archers- I think they used a few chariots but I've never heard of anything other than the hellenistic Scythed chariots like the Seleucid ones, who were simply used to break up or demoralize enemy lines. Apart from the Celtic chariots, who might have been used by the Galatians in Asia Minor, too, but they rarely used archers and even if there was a missile unit (more likely javelin throwers or slingers) on the chariot, it would not have been their primary equipment.

The Onagers have the same problem as stuff like the Harii- we know it for sure for the time of the Principate, but less so for the Republic. There is evidence that they were used, but not too often. Maybe they should only be recruitable at a very late building?
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 22, 2014, 09:02:53 PM
Okay, I'll await to see what your friend has to say!
Consider Pontic Chariot Archers gone!
That's what I was thinking, it will be available only post marian reforms and last tier archery/siege building.

Oh another question!

Armoured Elephants. We are leaving them in for the Seleucids and taking them away from Carthage. Should the Seleucids even get them?
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Paramythion on January 22, 2014, 09:18:26 PM
I would recommend removing the Legionary Cohorts and First Cohorts with the Lorica Segmentata, although I am sure there are people who wold differ with my opinion there. It is rather anachronistic for the time period as there is no evidence for it being used any earlier then the last few years of the game, and even that is dubious.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Bercor on January 22, 2014, 09:19:22 PM
Quote from: Paramythion on January 22, 2014, 09:18:26 PM
I would recommend removing the Legionary Cohorts and First Cohorts with the Lorica Segmentata, although I am sure there are people who wold differ with my opinion there. It is rather anachronistic for the time period as there is no evidence for it being used any earlier then the last few years of the game, and even that is dubious.

Agreed, I hate the overuse of segmentata.

Another thing, I think we should use the british light chariots, with a javalineer instead of an archer, instead of the british heavy chariots. These chariots where not used to swung around knocking men to the ground, but to enable a bigger and faster mobility of the infantry. The best way to be represented in the mod would be as a skirmisher unit.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 22, 2014, 09:26:05 PM
I think we should follow the RTR style right now and just have the Marian Legionaries and get rid of all the others.

So the British Light Chariot's with Javelineers would start in front of the main battle line and act like skirmishers? I like that
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Mausolos of Caria on January 22, 2014, 09:28:05 PM
Quote from: Bercor on January 22, 2014, 09:19:22 PM
Another thing, I think we should use the british light chariots, with a javalineer instead of an archer, instead of the british heavy chariots. These chariots where not used to swung around knocking men to the ground, but to enable a bigger and faster mobility of the infantry. The best way to be represented in the mod would be as a skirmisher unit.

Yep exactly what I said above about Celtic chariots (having the British one in mind, too)!  ;) And @ahowl  yep I think that's how they were used in the battle where Claudius was present as well as at Mons Graupius.

Armoured elephants: I think they were used at Raphia, weren't they? Definitely only give them to the Seleucids, and make them very expensive (on RSII they seemed unstoppable!). And while they should be extremely strong, armour doesn't make them immune against fear of fire! Sorry RS II but when I shoot on them with 4 units of archers, fire arrows on, they should at least get a bit nervous, but nothing happened at all  ;D
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 22, 2014, 09:35:47 PM
Alright, I'll make the necessary changes to the list.

I suggest everyone take one final look at the list and post your concerns. I'll give it one more day, and if there is nothing else, I will close this thread so we can begin new discussions regarding new faction units, aor units, and of course DMB/EDU limitation.

Oh here's something that will free up plenty of room. Faction's should only have one General's unit instead of two. Any arguments against this?
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Mausolos of Caria on January 22, 2014, 09:48:44 PM
Awrite, I had another look over it, I might add these things:

Macedonian phalanx should rather be named Pezhetairoi instead of Kleruchoi? At least not Kleruchoi since cleruchs are Greek colonists in the East.

Add Hippeis as a Medium/Heavy Cavalry to Greek City states.

Rename all units with the prefix ''Barbarian'', but I guess you already thought that, so we can put ''Celtic'', ''Scythian'' etc. instead.

And yes Germanic berserkers existed but if I remember correctly they are a bit overpowered in vanilla.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 22, 2014, 10:03:13 PM
Yes, I agree, I need to change them to Pezhetairoi

What is the difference between Hippeis, Prodromoi, and the unit that begins with Hippo (javelin cavalry)?

Yes the Barbarian Prefix will be removed.

Berserkers shall stay :)
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Bercor on January 22, 2014, 10:04:48 PM
Quote from: ahowl11 on January 22, 2014, 09:35:47 PM
Alright, I'll make the necessary changes to the list.

I suggest everyone take one final look at the list and post your concerns. I'll give it one more day, and if there is nothing else, I will close this thread so we can begin new discussions regarding new faction units, aor units, and of course DMB/EDU limitation.

Oh here's something that will free up plenty of room. Faction's should only have one General's unit instead of two. Any arguments against this?

I think Rome should have two types of general's bodyguard: one before the Marian reforms (equites consulares) and one after the reforms (legatus). The other factions should only get one.

Quote from: Mausolos of Caria on January 22, 2014, 09:48:44 PM
And yes Germanic berserkers existed but if I remember correctly they are a bit overpowered in vanilla.

If they are to stay, we should: 1st, change their names (bersekr it's a viking word), and 2nd, change their weapon (that wannabe 2hand warhammer is just silly).
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Mausolos of Caria on January 22, 2014, 10:30:19 PM
Yeah I forgot that about berserkers, agreed.

Prodromoi: Skirmisher cavalry, with javelins and a short sword (Basically mounted peltasts) Not sure where they recruited from, though...

Hippeis: The noblemen of a polis who could afford a horse would join the citizen army on the back of their horses (unless they were Spartans) so they are very much like the Roman cavalry. But similar to the Romans, as we all know, the (poleis) Greeks weren't the greatest riders so they might rather be named Medium cavalry instead of Heavy cavalry (they barely stood a chance against Thessalian or Companion cavarly).

Hippokontistai (I guess you mean them? ) : Skirmisher cavalry like the Prodromoi from what I know. Not entirely sure here, but Prodromoi might be citizen cavalry while Hippokontistai might be mercenaries (others mods confirm the latter). Maybe Prodroimoi are poorer nobles or middle class men who had a horse and didn't want to fight as hoplites, while the hippokontistai were Northern Greeks (since Alexander also seems to have had some) who were hired as mercenaries by the poleis in urgent cases.
I'd say Hippokontistai should be made either mercenaries or more expensive both in upkeep and recruitment than the Prodromoi, but also stronger since mercenaries would have more experience in cavalry battles than, say, an Athenian trader.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 22, 2014, 10:46:50 PM
Thank you Mausolos!
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: b257 on January 23, 2014, 02:36:35 AM
In extended culture's, they nerfed the Berserker so they don't trample infantry like Elephants, perhaps we could do the same here.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 23, 2014, 03:05:46 AM
Yeah that's a good idea.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 23, 2014, 06:55:12 AM
Before I head off to sleep and then wake up for a 13 hour day at work, I need to make one more suggestion for the Romans.
Auxilia
Light Auxilia
Cavalry Auxilia

I don't think we need them, especially since there were specific Auxilias out there.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: Bercor on January 24, 2014, 01:02:46 AM
Auxilia infantry and Light auxilia can be ditched.

On the other hand, post-Marian cavalry auxilia were very iconic and distinctive, with the romans providing much of the equipment, and, as such, I think they should have unique access to them. However, I dislike the ideia of a single unit of cavalry auxilia for all the map, so would suggest something similar of the approach taken by Europa Barbarorum's team, with specific AOR cavalry auxilia after the Marian Reforms.
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 24, 2014, 05:58:15 AM
Yeah I agree. The Cavalry Auxilia unit should be ditched too since in the game it's a jav/cav unit
Title: Re: Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster
Post by: ahowl11 on January 30, 2014, 12:46:26 AM
One last edit before this discussion is closed.
Pontic Heavy Cavalry didn't exist and I've never liked the unit anyway. Pontic Light Cavalry can stay since they can represent the Jav Cav that Pontus used.