Exilian

Game Design and Project Resources: The Workshops Quarter => Mods, Maps & Game Add-Ons - The Bazaar => Rome - Total Realism => Topic started by: ahowl11 on September 16, 2016, 08:49:59 AM

Title: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on September 16, 2016, 08:49:59 AM
Okay so in the past few days, I have had conversations with Gigantus, and Muizer, who both are presumably going to join this discussion.
Basically, our current map whether its the smaller version or blown up version, isn't really that great. There are a lot of issues with terrain, and placement of mountains. Also, our experiment to blow up the map has not gone well, as Gigantus and I concluded this morning (sorry Emodude, it's just not looking right, and the ai will be effected as well :/). Muizer also has some ideas. Basically it seems as if the best idea is to make a new map, but is that what we want to do? Here are some key features that it'd need to have regardless.

- Stretch to Western India & Tarim Basin so Saka have an impact. We have to include the Saka, Xeofox has dedicated a lot to this mod specifically for them, so the map needs to extend to where they were.

- Have proper projection in Eastern Portion of Map

- It needs to extend south to include all of Arabia as the trade was so important back then, and I'd like to emulate that in RTR.

- I vote to keep my regions, which Gigantus and Muizer both seem to agree on.

- We have the resources researched by Suppanut on TWC, shouldn't be hard to port, they were made for the Fortuna Orbis Map.

- Even though EmoDude isn't as active, he put a lot of time into the climates as well as the textures for the map. I'd like to keep those as best we could. Also, because of our climate building feature, we need to keep them as intact as we can.

- What do you all think on having the major rivers Navigable?

Here is an example map that Muizer showed me today.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?495095-Ozman-s-Workshop

Okay, so Gigantus, Muizer, Emodude.. The floor is yours. Let's do what is best for the team and make sure we have the best map possible.

Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Gigantus on September 16, 2016, 09:46:39 AM
The problem with maps of this scale (real life distances) is the projection - you end up with distortions and in this case lots of 'dead' space. And if the height values are not exaggerated over its whole range you end up with a flat map as well.

(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/Gigantus_pics/Modding%20Stuff/Modding%20Temp/map1_1.jpg) (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Gigantus_pics/media/Modding%20Stuff/Modding%20Temp/map1_1.jpg.html)

The ideal case from the view of playable area would be if one places the red bordered area into a rectangle.

(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/Gigantus_pics/Modding%20Stuff/Modding%20Temp/map2_1.jpg) (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Gigantus_pics/media/Modding%20Stuff/Modding%20Temp/map2_1.jpg.html)

That's vertigo inducing where I am concerned so we may have to go with conventional maps. I have been using the Demis Mapper (http://www2.demis.nl/worldmap/mapper.asp) for some time now because of it's ease of use but at this scale it starts to become unsuitable as well because of the stretching.

(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/Gigantus_pics/Modding%20Stuff/Modding%20Temp/map3.jpg) (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Gigantus_pics/media/Modding%20Stuff/Modding%20Temp/map3.jpg.html)

For those interested I wrote a tutorial (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=346783) on how to use the mapper and made some sample maps (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?357896) as well. Ozman's map made a good effort to balance distortion and playable area, but there simply is no way to get an optimal result.

Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Jubal on September 16, 2016, 11:32:09 AM
Stupid question potentially, but is dead space in the Sahara and on the Steppe really so much of an issue?

Also, is there a maximum map size for RTW, I can't remember?
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Gigantus on September 16, 2016, 11:56:19 AM
It's not an issue per se - but it's a sad waste of space to have a map where you only use 50% of the space. And it messes with path finding if it is accessible.

The hard coded limit is 510*510 size in descr_terrain (the problems that come with that size are numerous) and 200 regions (water counts as region) in descr_regions.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on September 16, 2016, 04:45:03 PM
Hmm well to fix the ai issue what if we covered the north east with dense forest, and the Sahara with low mountains?
Ozmans might be a good base for us to work with?

Gigantus, how do you feel about navigable rivers?
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Gigantus on September 16, 2016, 06:06:35 PM
Dense forest: can be used but contains moving 3D objects that, in large areas, create a massive performance hit. low mountains or impassable ground type are fine.

Navigable rivers: not a big fan of it - ships get stuck on it as they can't pass each other, they create a massive barrier unless kept thin enough to allow land bridges. Roads are not able to cross them, messing up the road system (visual and movement effect only). They effectively act like a sea body, meaning trade will only happen via sea lane with the region on the other side. In the present map the Nile delta cannot trade with the neigboring region on the other side of the navigable river, for example.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Muizer on September 16, 2016, 11:40:41 PM
Hi guys, tnx for the invite.

So here's the thing with these massive maps. The level of detail in things like regions tends to vary tremendously across the map, with usually the highest density of regions in Greece and around the mediterranean, larger but fairly consistently sized regions around that (Gaul, Iberian peninsula, Anatolia) and even bigger regions beyond that towards the north and east.

So, ideally a projection would have high detail on a central area, dropping off towards the perifery. Perhaps something like an orthogonal map centered on Greece (Lat 38, Lon 22) : http://kartograph.org/showcase/projections/#ortho ?

Now it would be tempting to rotate the cut-out to get rid of "dead space". On the other hand,  the diagonal is the longest axis of the map and from that perspective it would be best to align that, and not the horizontal,  with the main "area of interest".
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Jubal on September 16, 2016, 11:42:13 PM
Your link doesn't seem to be loading :(

I agree with Gig on navigable rivers, I remember having tried that on maps previously and given up, the RTW AI does not deal with seas optimally in general.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Gigantus on September 17, 2016, 02:21:08 AM
Agree with a projection that compresses the areas at the top and bottom of the selected map section. Just a pity the demis mapper doesn't have that function. So I guess it will have to be done manually, I wonder if there is a Photoshop function that would be able to do that (gradual reduction).

Edit: I doodled a bit with the map from my other post to achieve some compression. Unfortunately I can't do it in non-cubic mode (unlike with complete resizing) and this results in 'smudging' which makes the result unsuitable for map files. Can't do it gradually either which results in a somewhat weird look.

(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/Gigantus_pics/Modding%20Stuff/Modding%20Temp/map3new.jpg) (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Gigantus_pics/media/Modding%20Stuff/Modding%20Temp/map3new.jpg.html)
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Alavaria on September 17, 2016, 09:24:06 AM
Well actual maps in the ancient world could be rather weird looking, right? I suppose one question is do most RTW/M2TW maps all look about the same for mods that cover large areas?
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Gigantus on September 17, 2016, 09:35:36 AM
Those maps certainly looked weirder then mine (http://www.infracta.de/wbb/images/smilies/f8.gif)


Same look: If they cover the same area then they do in the layout - the RTR map is pretty much identical to the EBII map. Details like ground textures and strat models differ. The graphic files for the map (map_regions.tga etc and ground textures) are in fact freely interchangeable between RTW and M2TW.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Muizer on September 17, 2016, 01:18:40 PM
The problem with doing anything manually to the shape of the map is that it very much complicates combining data from different sources and placing stuff on the map based on real world coordinates.

The needed compression ins't just a north south thing either. Ahowl mentioned to me wanting to have Lake Baikal on the map, which would also necessitate compression in the west- east direction, especially the nearer you get to the eastern boundary.   

As for the looks of other maps, I wouldn't take that as a reference. I think quite a few are the result of tagging stuff onto an originally smaller map, with little consideration for the overal design.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Gigantus on September 17, 2016, 03:07:21 PM
Quote from: Muizer on September 17, 2016, 01:18:40 PM
The problem with doing anything manually to the shape of the map is that it very much complicates combining data from different sources and placing stuff on the map based on real world coordinates.
Agreed - even when it is only the various map graphics that need shaping it's a pain. Plus it needs a 'non smudging' method as the graphics require precise RGB values.

Quote from: Muizer on September 17, 2016, 01:18:40 PM
The needed compression ins't just a north south thing either. Ahowl mentioned to me wanting to have Lake Baikal on the map, which would also necessitate compression in the west- east direction, especially the nearer you get to the eastern boundary.
To be honest, I don't think the area to be covered can be done without some serious compromises\alterations to layout, there was a reason why Florida was on the same height as Ireland in the M2 vanilla map (http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/Gigantus_pics/Emoticons/tongue.gif)

Quote from: Muizer on September 17, 2016, 01:18:40 PM
As for the looks of other maps, I wouldn't take that as a reference. I think quite a few are the result of tagging stuff onto an originally smaller map, with little consideration for the overal design.
I was going by the coast lines, but you have a point there with regards to general comparisons.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on September 17, 2016, 03:24:45 PM
Hmm well why don't we use ozmans map? It's seems to be the closest to what we need/want right?
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: DCLXVIMRTRVEBLAKKOKKVLTDCLXVI on September 17, 2016, 05:59:47 PM
I also agree wit ahowl, ozma's map is indeed very well suited for our mod. ps: can we add all major volcanoes like I did for our previous map? (I removed the ridiculous volcano smoke on the battle map so it won't look weird in regions like armenia, anatolia and ethiopia)
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Gigantus on September 17, 2016, 06:34:24 PM
Mundus Magnus? It would seem to have roughly the area that you are looking for. Looks as if he used the 3Dem method (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?224335) for his heights - the odd incorrect waterbody is a hallmark of it (eg top of Caspian Sea and Aral Lake).

The projection method also seems fairly close to what muizer was suggesting, certainly has a reduced 'dead' area.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Muizer on September 17, 2016, 07:29:12 PM
But what projection (if any!) is it? Anyway, I used it as an example of how to build terrain..........but from the op it's clear it's not a finished article. The 80/20 rule definitely applies here: it's not that hard to create something that looks allright, but to make it work, with regions and all is a whole different ball game.

As for projections. Google earth uses orthographic projection or something close to it. How about something like this. It keeps the focus on the mediterranean, but does add the east, albeit increasingly compressed the further you go.  To add more of it, shift the focus of the map a bit further east and more rolls into view.

I suggest you all have a look at it and see if there's a cut out that meets your needs.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/Muizer/Extents_zpssxjx51o1.png) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Muizer/media/Extents_zpssxjx51o1.png.html)
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on September 17, 2016, 07:43:58 PM
Honestly I think if the focus got shifted a little bit further east, maybe centered on turkey, that it'd include the areas we need.
Can we all agree with this method?
About Ozmans map, and Mundus Magnus they're extremely similar to the one we are using now. If we were to choose those, then why not keep our current one?
Muizer, I like your idea but out of curiosity, aren't the eastern regions going to be cramped and proportioned strangely? I do like where you're going though
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: DCLXVIMRTRVEBLAKKOKKVLTDCLXVI on September 17, 2016, 08:11:31 PM
Quote from: Muizer on September 17, 2016, 07:29:12 PM
But what projection (if any!) is it? Anyway, I used it as an example of how to build terrain..........but from the op it's clear it's not a finished article. The 80/20 rule definitely applies here: it's not that hard to create something that looks allright, but to make it work, with regions and all is a whole different ball game.

As for projections. Google earth uses orthographic projection or something close to it. How about something like this. It keeps the focus on the mediterranean, but does add the east, albeit increasingly compressed the further you go.  To add more of it, shift the focus of the map a bit further east and more rolls into view.

I suggest you all have a look at it and see if there's a cut out that meets your needs.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/Muizer/Extents_zpssxjx51o1.png) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Muizer/media/Extents_zpssxjx51o1.png.html)

I think it's a good idea to use this projection but like ahowl said, focused a little more east so the indus river is on the map. Also, could you include a sea heightmap that is scaled 1024x1024 pixels? the shallow areas should be cyan, the dark areas very dark blue. For lakes and rivers you should use the colours of the previous map.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Gigantus on September 18, 2016, 09:33:38 AM
A projection of 'looking down on the ball' should work - as has been mentioned it's a matter of the focus, the size will remain the same with the edges being compressed due to the viewing angle.
It does remind me about way back when making maps with worldwind (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?200653-Creating-a-World-Map-Templates-with-Worldwind&p=3868792#post3868792) - haven't worked with in ages .
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: xeofox on September 18, 2016, 10:28:45 AM
Quote from: Muizer on September 17, 2016, 07:29:12 PM
But what projection (if any!) is it? Anyway, I used it as an example of how to build terrain..........but from the op it's clear it's not a finished article. The 80/20 rule definitely applies here: it's not that hard to create something that looks allright, but to make it work, with regions and all is a whole different ball game.

As for projections. Google earth uses orthographic projection or something close to it. How about something like this. It keeps the focus on the mediterranean, but does add the east, albeit increasingly compressed the further you go.  To add more of it, shift the focus of the map a bit further east and more rolls into view.

I suggest you all have a look at it and see if there's a cut out that meets your needs.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/Muizer/Extents_zpssxjx51o1.png) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Muizer/media/Extents_zpssxjx51o1.png.html)



I think that view is not a good choice. Working with map and the height map will be in manual mode.
We can use Mercator (UTM) projection. This gives us the pluses:
1) free and ready elevation map (you can use the SRTM)1 (http://dds.cr.usgs.gov/srtm/version2_1/SRTM3/),2 (http://www.viewfinderpanoramas.org/dem3.html),3 (http://www.dwtkns.com/srtm/)
2) Localization of points (work through GIS 1 (http://www.qgis.org),2 (http://www.openjump.org/) or SASplanet (http://www.sasgis.org/))
3) Any correction of map is easy.
4) The UTM projection available set of maps (cities, rivers, ponds) (by SASplanet or Openstreet) (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=4/44.09/24.52)
5) are available satellite images

I think UTM projection it`s more easy and faster:
Quote from: Gigantus on September 17, 2016, 02:21:08 AM
Agree with a projection that compresses the areas at the top and bottom of the selected map section. Just a pity the demis mapper doesn't have that function. So I guess it will have to be done manually, I wonder if there is a Photoshop function that would be able to do that (gradual reduction).

Edit: I doodled a bit with the map from my other post to achieve some compression. Unfortunately I can't do it in non-cubic mode (unlike with complete resizing) and this results in 'smudging' which makes the result unsuitable for map files. Can't do it gradually either which results in a somewhat weird look.

(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/Gigantus_pics/Modding%20Stuff/Modding%20Temp/map3new.jpg) (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Gigantus_pics/media/Modding%20Stuff/Modding%20Temp/map3new.jpg.html)
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: xeofox on September 18, 2016, 10:38:57 AM
One more sample:

(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f158/Xeo_the_Fox/2016-09-18_15-31-25_zpssygmpuck.png)

Games use this projection: for exaple europa universalis 5
We need to correction map and DEM (by Photoshop). We can even  twirl and trim, but do not stretch map. (If the twirl, then a little harder to work with GIS-  but still good). Stretch for UTM can be but undesirable (but can be vertical or horizontal only)
P.S.: If we will make with UTM projection we can (without problem) make KML & KMZ files. And put our map in Gogle earth (as layer)  ^-^


I do not insist on this. I recommend.
I'm  archaeologist, but experience with GIS good! I can help with GIS work.  :) 
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on September 18, 2016, 03:05:38 PM
We'd need to really trim a lot of dead space off of that map. I know it's just a sample but just saying. Also games like Ck2 and Eu4 you can zoom way in and way out, with RTW you don't have that luxury sadly.
Listen I think trying gigs method a few posts above compromises with everyone's wishes. Anyone disagree?
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Muizer on September 18, 2016, 07:43:13 PM
@ Xeofox,
I'm not quite sure about your reservations. As you know most gis datasource provide their data in latitude-longitude format. That includes elevation, coastlines, rivers, places and the available dataset on ancient places, roadsystems and so on. Any self respecting GIS will allow you to define your projection according to your needs. Qgis definitely supports the kind of projection used by Google Earth or something very much like it. The GIS I use certainly does. So, I do not see why opting for one projection over another would affect the availability of geographical data? The question at hand is, knowing we can choose any projection system we want, which suits your goals best? The orthogonal and (other) perspective projections have the advantage that the area the map is centered on has the highest resolution and this can be used to compress the periphery where in this case is either "dead space" like Siberia or the Sahara, or a series of regions that currently are rather larger than the others.   

Btw, my background is physical geograpy, so my focus in GIS tends to be primarily on the physical environment and on rasterized data.  However, I'd love to work on a map that faithfully incorporates historical geography as much as possible. For RTR VII I managed the accurate placing of settlements allright, but there are a couple of aspects that I never got quite around to doing well, mainly concerning the infrastructure and land use. 
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on September 18, 2016, 08:16:23 PM
Well I think if we took the map we have currently and tilted it 20 degrees to the left or so, we'd have what we need. Obviously not the map itself, a new one, but with better projection and terrain.
Me personally, I just want to choose a map projection and move on. The one gig advised last seems best.
But yeah I kinda wanna get going with this if we are going to do it.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: xeofox on September 18, 2016, 11:41:21 PM
@Muizer
The problem is that the current version of map has the error of projection (East added by manual work). For example: When the work was carried out with adding objects (adjustment) was very difficult to add the city to make a correction of the river and so on.
The most important:
The sample need to make in real projection ( it will be more easy wark).
Why UTM? Because the material on the Internet is the most common.
For example: SASplanet has access to a variety of sources.
If not UTM then map projection can be any, but real (!). When the need to create a backup copy of the map in GIS (parallel work). However, Mercator metric system is very useful for images and vector data. If we use the Gauss Kruger Proektion, Winkel Tripel or Kavrayskiy proektion - It is a common but at the moment the most popular Mercator system (more sources).
Using the KMZ and KML is generally simplify our work. (Here more UTM good- i work in ArcMap).
With coordinate system (not projection) can be ... latitude, longitude all this we can easily change in any  projection.
If we no agreement to UTM projection- So we need to find another map! Not only the raster, but bind (rectification). Also, a height map. With PRJ files (rectification).
UTM not best projection - but more eays work.

If not UTM then we need an another map (rectifying) and a map heights (rectifying).
If we have, then we most easier will be add objects (or make correction)
Or like before ... to make  monual work with maps ;)

Sorry for bad english.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: xeofox on September 19, 2016, 12:37:55 AM
Here i made few samples of map (source is: WGS84  web UTM projection)
with changed projection (here we can try to crop this samples)
and try to see this sample in game. After that i can make raw image map (cuted)
and raw DEM (H-map) cuted also.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on September 19, 2016, 12:52:58 AM
I think it should be cropped at the top of Scotland in the north. Lake Baikal in the east, Ethiopia in the south and Mauritania in the east.
I'm not sure which projection is best, honestly regardless we are going to have to deal with the Sahara and steppe no matter what. I guess we should experiment to see which projection gives is the smallest land mass in those areas.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on September 19, 2016, 01:18:02 AM
Hmm I was trying to remember a thread I made and I found it. Gig actually helped out here, what do you all think? I think it has what everyone wants.
http://exilian.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2924.0
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: xeofox on September 19, 2016, 04:06:34 AM
Here some test of croping maps (http://exilian.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4729.msg109472#msg109472) (just for test) without rotation:
8 samples of projection

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

if we will use GIS it will be two paralel map: game map and modern map.
And it will be real coordinates for game map. And as i say before we
can make third duplicate of map for Google Erth (for example)- it simplifies our work.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Gigantus on September 19, 2016, 04:07:14 AM
Completely forgotten about that one.
Looking at the distortion it must be based on worldwind. I installed it again yesterday - but the server is not responding. Not sure if it is from my side. If someone else wants to try, here are the links:

main program: http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/download.html (http://worldwind.arc.nasa.gov/download.html)
demis add-on (replace sat pictures with map as in the sample): http://www.worldwindcentral.com/wiki/Add-on:Demis_WorldMap (http://www.worldwindcentral.com/wiki/Add-on:Demis_WorldMap)

Install the program followed by the add-on
Start program and select the demis symbol in the top row once the globe appears

@xeofox - sinusoidal with some rotation would be best suited I think.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: xeofox on September 19, 2016, 04:33:25 AM
@Gigantus i think it`s good, but hotine projection i like also.  :)
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on September 19, 2016, 05:02:29 AM
Here are the files from the map Gigantus provided a few years ago:
http://depositfiles.com/files/nadxlr1yv?redirect

Some notes from Gigantus on the map files:

Quote
Underneath the radar map of the area. I didn't include map_fog and map_trade_routes.
Note to map_features: I left the coastline layout in case you want to add more rivers - for use simply fill in the background with black (RGB 0,0,0)

(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/Gigantus_pics/Modding%20Stuff/Modding%20Temp/ahowl.jpg)

There is no real order on how to progress with the map, but the first step would be to make it playable. With a map this size you will need about 12-15 evenly sized regions, 2 factions with a named character each and the slave faction. When creating those regions it's advisable to give them their correct names already, eg. Latium for the whole of Italy with Roma as settlement. That way you later just have to resize the region without changing anything else.
Allocate one region to each faction, the rest to the slaves. Once the map works start working on ground_types and climates.
Once it look's to your satisfaction create the final regions and place trading resources, sort out the development details of settlements and add characters.

Here are mapping tutorials and resources for us to use. Just about anything and everything is answered below!
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?208570-Creating-a-World-%96-Basic-mapping-from-scratch (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?208570-Creating-a-World-%96-Basic-mapping-from-scratch)
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?50437-Making-a-new-campaign-map (http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?50437-Making-a-new-campaign-map)
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?429382-Bull3pr00f-s-Completely-Known-Tutorials (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?429382-Bull3pr00f-s-Completely-Known-Tutorials)
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?58786-How-To-Add-Relocate-Delete-Campaign-Map-Resources (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?58786-How-To-Add-Relocate-Delete-Campaign-Map-Resources)
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?85902-Campaign-Map-Not-Loading (http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?85902-Campaign-Map-Not-Loading)
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?33471-Landbridges-and-how-to-implement-them (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?33471-Landbridges-and-how-to-implement-them)
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?68402-Mercenaries-mini-guide (http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?68402-Mercenaries-mini-guide)
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?52483-How-to-make-real-rivers-%28or-Land-Bridges%29 (http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?52483-How-to-make-real-rivers-%28or-Land-Bridges%29)
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?51387-Newbie-Mod-Tutorials-Provinces (http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?51387-Newbie-Mod-Tutorials-Provinces)
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?43747-How-to-limit-recruitment-construction-by-area-%28hidden-resources%29 (http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?43747-How-to-limit-recruitment-construction-by-area-%28hidden-resources%29)
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?63614-Game-AI-stuff-%281-5%29 (http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?63614-Game-AI-stuff-%281-5%29)
http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/mods/tutorials/map_features/index.shtml (http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/mods/tutorials/map_features/index.shtml)
http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/mods/tutorials/resources/index.shtml (http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/mods/tutorials/resources/index.shtml)
http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/mods/tutorials/adding_new_regions/index.shtml (http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/mods/tutorials/adding_new_regions/index.shtml)
http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/mods/tutorials/descr_strat/index.shtml (http://rtw.heavengames.com/rtw/mods/tutorials/descr_strat/index.shtml)
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?43149-Putting-features-on-the-Campaign-map-%28custom-tiles%29 (http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?43149-Putting-features-on-the-Campaign-map-%28custom-tiles%29)
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?122162-toggle_terrain-highly-useful-for-mapping (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?122162-toggle_terrain-highly-useful-for-mapping)
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?51366-How-To-%C2%96-Edit-a-trade-resource (http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?51366-How-To-%C2%96-Edit-a-trade-resource)
http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?51378-How-to-include-new-rebel-factions (http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?51378-How-to-include-new-rebel-factions)
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?13660-Descr_Strat-tutorial (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?13660-Descr_Strat-tutorial)

Does anyone object to this map? If so, please say so asap.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: xeofox on September 19, 2016, 02:37:36 PM
Quote from: ahowl11 on September 19, 2016, 05:02:29 AM
Does anyone object to this map? If so, please say so asap.

No Saka (tigraxauda) area. I dreamed about there would be an event: the invasion Wusuns. In this situation Saka go to dream also. In this map can  be saka like Massagets - and it is very sad for me.  :(

Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: xeofox on September 19, 2016, 02:47:54 PM
Here some test with samples. Two projection: sinusoidal & hotine

sinusoidal
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


hotine
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Vrosivs Avgvstvs Rakvs on September 19, 2016, 04:03:17 PM
both are pretty good solutions, but imo hotine looks more, how to explain it, natural and better I think.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Muizer on September 19, 2016, 06:28:12 PM
Let's not repeat old errors.

The following is, as you may know, the map I originally made for RTR7.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/Muizer/RTR7_zpstbbgvyun.png) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Muizer/media/RTR7_zpstbbgvyun.png.html)

At the time I was rather foolish and naive and I thought the team generally knew what they were doing, and me as well. They did not, and neither did I. This is a very poor map design. When RTR was reformed under MCM, I made damn sure this map was ditched (though still TIC used a part of it).

The main problem? It's criminally imbalanced region wise and even then it does not make optimal use of the hardcoded limits on map extents.

At first glance, the tilt is appealing because it cuts out "dead space" in the north and south. However, considering how starved for space we were in the Mediterranean and especiall Greece, we should course put the longest axis of the map along the diagonal. This tilted projection throws away 1/3 of your resolution just to get rid of dead space that doesn't actually do much harm. Secondly, wait for it..................yeah, this is a Hotine, or oblique Mercator, projection. And as I mentioned before, that too is rather stupid, because resolution actually increases away from the center line, which is AWAY FROM THE AREA OF INTEREST! That is, the projection makes the small regions along the center line smaller, and the big ones away from it bigger! Let's not make a mistake we made and learned from (as a team) 10 years ago?
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on September 19, 2016, 06:58:29 PM
Thank you for letting us know as none of us were on the team then.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Muizer on September 19, 2016, 08:47:44 PM
Btw, Vrosius, the projection you mentioned in chat could be an oblique cylindrical equal area map. Hardly commonplace. My GIS doesn't have it, but it may be possible to define it in Qgis. Will check tomorrow.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: xeofox on September 19, 2016, 10:32:00 PM
This is a one of simples ways.
If we will use real projection for preparing for editing map. We can rotate image.
We need make some color grid (in gis) like here (grid borders make like size of the game map):

game map border (rotated)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

after make KMZ  file (of this color grid) for Google Earth. It will be helper for editing game map.

game map border (grid) in GE
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The GIS we need only in start (when we make croping and rotaing) after that we need graphical editor (for example photoshop) and google eart.
And we can make easy corection, editing, search etc.

one point in GE and Photoshop
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Prepare ( rotate & crop) Hi-res map also ;)
After we can (without problem) rectify radar, h-map, disasters, faction borders, etc maps and put it in Google Earth  :)
 
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Vrosivs Avgvstvs Rakvs on September 19, 2016, 11:05:23 PM
Quote from: Muizer on September 19, 2016, 08:47:44 PM
Btw, Vrosius, the projection you mentioned in chat could be an oblique cylindrical equal area map. Hardly commonplace. My GIS doesn't have it, but it may be possible to define it in Qgis. Will check tomorrow.

Alright, please contact me tomorrow, I'd like to witness the progress, hope you can recreate it. I really think it will fit well.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: xeofox on September 20, 2016, 01:08:33 PM
I try to make modifycation of projection (Hotine). And made few prototypes for RTR (new PRJ files) in ArcGIS.
Maps don`t need to rotate.

Prototypes of RTR_projection:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Here (in my cloud) (https://yadi.sk/d/Nzu3kGv7vRrEF) PRJ-files, images from spoiler & images with not cuted (borders) in PSD file.
If you are interested, or some problems then contact me.

P.S.: Different sources (modified projection)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on September 21, 2016, 10:12:07 AM
Muizer, were you able to find anything? Do you think any of those maps by xeofox would work well?
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Muizer on September 21, 2016, 07:43:21 PM
I haven't found anything I'm happy with yet. As for the maps xeofox postd, as I mentioned, the RTR7 map was a hotine map just like his and it didn't do anything to solve our problems. The center line (horizontal) may be the area with the least distortion, but it's also the area with the poorest resolution. Vrosius' suggestion might have helped a bit, but as far as I've been able to assess there's no GIS support for it (though it seems it's being worked on).

This is btw not a decision to make in haste, because once made you're kind of stuck with it. So be patient plz ;)
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Vrosivs Avgvstvs Rakvs on September 21, 2016, 08:39:40 PM
Fingers crossed it gets nailed right, Muizer. I eagerly await the resolution of this :D
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on September 21, 2016, 09:06:09 PM
Alright well here's the plan. I think our current map (not the large one) will suffice until we make the new one (which will be the best ever made for rtw!) and I will continue editing everything else I can, non-map related.
Beta 3 will probably just be a major graphical upgrade to beta 2 and I'm okay with that. I will be patient with the map, but I will progress the mod in other areas so there doesn't feel like there's a traffic jam. Thoughts?
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Vrosivs Avgvstvs Rakvs on September 21, 2016, 09:07:57 PM
Seems very reasonable. While we're stuck at the map issue currently, working on a roadmap (pun not intended) regarding other things that need to be done in the following period and precisely defining the remaining issues would be great.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Gigantus on September 22, 2016, 03:29:45 AM
Just a note: the worldwind program (which produced this map (http://exilian.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4729.msg109482#msg109482)) is no longer supported by it's original server (still used with private servers) and therefore it's not possible to get proper maps. Which is a pity because it does support rotating and tilting and the demis add-on created easy convertible maps.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Muizer on September 24, 2016, 03:54:41 PM
Ok, so I've looked into various options. The following is the best yet. May seem ironical in that it looks a lot like the RTR7 map, and indeed it covers about the same extent and at a smiliar angle. Difference is in the whay the pixels are 'spent' within this area. The RTR7 map has a cell size of 8x8km cell along the center line which decreases with distance from the center line.

The projection shown here is the Orthographic one. It has a cell size of 6.7x6.7 km at the center of projection (a bit south of Greece in this case) which increases radially. 

The difference across the map is not huge in terms of extending land mass, but there is a significant decrease in blurring of terrain features in the areas where it matters most.  The effect is positive as far away from the center point as Britain.

It's not a huge leap, but it's the best I can think of.

Projections that would in theory suit us better only do so in theary as they do not seem to be implemented in any GIS.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/Muizer/project_zps9ynk87cg.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Muizer/media/project_zps9ynk87cg.jpg.html)
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on September 24, 2016, 04:27:47 PM
Looks good. Seems as if we can get lark Balkhash in as well, so we will all be happy. Let's do it
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Vrosivs Avgvstvs Rakvs on September 24, 2016, 04:57:13 PM
This looks very nice, M! Congrats!
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: xeofox on September 24, 2016, 05:16:36 PM
Quote from: ahowl11 on September 24, 2016, 04:27:47 PM
Looks good. Seems as if we can get lark Balkhash in as well, so we will all be happy. Let's do it
it will be good if Balkhash will be in NE edge of map and be sure to Issyk-Kul under Balkhash.

Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Gigantus on September 25, 2016, 04:24:41 AM
Looks good. Might present a challenge to get an accurate coast line (an inherent problem with this type of projection I believe), but that shouldn't be too big a problem.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Muizer on September 25, 2016, 10:36:22 PM
Lake Balkhash is on the screen I showed. It's not very visible on the height map. You can make out lake Issyk-Kul though, if you know what to look for (I didn't :P) Due to the projection, however it's not under Balkhash but more to the right of it.

@Gigantus. Coastlines are always tricky. Special care will have to be taken to retain important topological features and this will no doubt involve manual (post) processing.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on September 25, 2016, 10:55:09 PM
So what are the next steps?
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Muizer on September 26, 2016, 06:51:42 PM
Firstly, it's important to establish that the extents of the map, because, while it may be possible to add to it at the top and bottom, the left and right will be fixed permanently and beyond appeal! To that end I'll provide a definite map with an overlay of coastlines and rivers.

The next step is going to be to create a basic ground and height map. These map will only have 3 terrain classes: Land, Beach and Sea. Getting the coastline right is the main challenge here.

Once that is done, the regions map can be implemented. I can do this, but help would be welcome. The historical geography of the map should be laid out fully and accurately before the ground types are developed further and even the height map needs to take this into account. That concerns the placement of settlements, ports, roads and sea-lanes. Of these, settlements and ports can best be done by collecting their latitude and longitude in decimal degrees in a spreadsheet, so if anyone wants a job, compiling that list would be very welcome. 

With a basic division of land and sea and a regions map, we'll have the first "test-able" map. Characters will have to be commented out or moved temporarily.

Next up will be the features map. Lots of manual editing again.

After that, we have enough info to build the land portion of the height map. Areas under settlements will need to be smoothed and, always fun, the terrain needs to be adjusted under the rivers to ensure they run downwards nice and gently.

Next up, the climate map. This is easy in a sense, as it does not materially affect anything except looks. However, solid info is hard to come by. We know Africa and the middle east were somewhat more habitable. Perhaps we can use ancient settlement patterns as proxies.

The ground types map is to be constructed last. The ground under settlements and roads has to be reserved for passable ground types. Otherwise, terrain slope will inform where to put mountains, hills or arable land. This is rule-based and those rules will vary depending on the climatic zones. This process is basically done with a script.

Seems a bit daunting, but I've documented most of these steps well enough.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Mausolos of Caria on September 26, 2016, 08:03:57 PM
It's great to have you on board, Muizer  :)  Good luck with your task! If you need any further advice or information regarding the historical accuracy, feel free to ask me and I'll try to help you as far as I can.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Muizer on September 27, 2016, 08:35:28 PM
Here's a snapshot of the planned layout with rivers and coastlines. If this is not ok, in terms of extents, let me know asap.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v724/Muizer/snapshot_zpsavkppedd.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Muizer/media/snapshot_zpsavkppedd.jpg.html)
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on September 27, 2016, 08:58:40 PM
Well the only question I have is why do we need Iceland, Greenland, all of Scandinavia and the tundra on the map, but I guess it's due to the projection?
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Muizer on September 27, 2016, 09:34:38 PM
Yeah, it's due to the projection. For our purposes, that's the price for putting Lake Balkhash further to the left. But as you know, the map width is the bottleneck, not its height, so it's not much of a price.  Personally, I like having all of Europe on the map, including Scandinavia. It makes the map versatile. 
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on September 27, 2016, 09:54:59 PM
Well what I'm concerned about is the region distribution. If we keep our current regions there's going to be some large provinces
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: xeofox on September 27, 2016, 10:35:31 PM
looks good! I will help with Central Asia region.

Important to show Zhanadariya river in game map (for Chirik-rabad city) it can be dried on the SW or wade ca be there
Kuandaria river not so important, but in this region it can be obstacle to army traffic :
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And near Balkhash lake: red -Important, yellow - secondary importance (secondary - not so importan but will be good if pisible to show :
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Gigantus on September 28, 2016, 07:23:53 AM
I would suggest to omit Greenland, Iceland and the small islands (can't remember the name, shetlands?)
Possibly could shave off a bit from the bottom too.

Be careful with 'feature' rivers - too many in one region\density in general can lead to a scroll crash.

Just as well one does not see the full map on the screen - players might otherwise end up with permanently titled necks (http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll264/Gigantus_pics/Emoticons/tongue.gif)
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Jubal on September 30, 2016, 07:41:52 PM
The ones far north of Scotland are indeed the Shetlands :)
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Muizer on October 03, 2016, 08:12:07 PM
Just so you know. I do a bit of work on this daily. However, I don't have that much time, nor do I intend to spend much of it on the forum or in chat. But I'm working on it.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Vrosivs Avgvstvs Rakvs on October 03, 2016, 08:16:22 PM
Thanks for your effort, M, patiently awaiting the results.
General question btw, once the map is done, will it be difficult to implement it?
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on October 03, 2016, 09:02:03 PM
Thanks for the update, we will continue our part as well.
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Gigantus on October 04, 2016, 04:45:18 AM
Quote from: Vrosivs Avgvstvs Rakvs on October 03, 2016, 08:16:22 PM
Thanks for your effort, M, patiently awaiting the results.
General question btw, once the map is done, will it be difficult to implement it?
The map itself should not need anything further. It's the populating that will take a bit of time and work: defining regional borders and placing settlements\ports. Placing characters, wonders and resources. Basically all the text file work, a simple copy\paste of previous work will not be possible as the co-ordinates need adjusting (the rest of the entries can be copied)
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: Vrosivs Avgvstvs Rakvs on October 04, 2016, 07:41:01 AM
Quote from: Gigantus on October 04, 2016, 04:45:18 AM
The map itself should not need anything further. It's the populating that will take a bit of time and work: defining regional borders and placing settlements\ports. Placing characters, wonders and resources. Basically all the text file work, a simple copy\paste of previous work will not be possible as the co-ordinates need adjusting (the rest of the entries can be copied)

Yeah, I imagined it would be kind of like that. Well still it seems to me it won't be too much of a hassle, which is great. Thanks for the reply! :)
Title: Re: A New Map?
Post by: ahowl11 on October 09, 2016, 08:21:16 AM
I am hoping to be able to use the resources that Suppanut researched as well as keep our current regions. Fingers crossed!