Author Topic: UK Welfare Reforms 2015  (Read 4402 times)

Clockwork

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UK Welfare Reforms 2015
« on: July 20, 2015, 08:48:50 PM »
Labours getting some flak for not opposing the welfare reforms... British political apathy, guess that's not really news then.

The bill itself is actually pretty decent. Caps benefits for households at 2 kids, so basically only have them if you can afford them....Like everything else. Oh and it has the novel idea of getting people on these benefits to actually pay their loans back at some point and not just ride the system forever. It's almost like they're trying to get people to work? Crazy. The UK has obviously gone to the dogs.

In other news, E3 was pretty much a success with Ubisoft and EPIC giving PC another look, deciding not to completely write off gamers who prefer decent looking games  played with enough keys to make complex gameplay.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 02:38:21 PM by Jubal »
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Jubal

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2015, 12:27:12 AM »
Caps benefits at 2 kids - aka punishes third & fourth children for their parents' misdemeanours. Having a kid isn't like getting a bloody car, parents can't just sell the extras off if they accidentally (or on purpose) have ones they can't afford to keep. There's also no support to actually try to decrease household sizes, so it's taking the gamble that the only reason people have large families is because they can afford them... which is clearly bullarmadillo if you look at global or historical statistics on family size, poorer families tend to have more rather than fewer children. So you'll forgive me if I don't cheer for a measure that won't cap family sizes, will increase child poverty dramatically, and will ultimately lead to more expenditure as already desperate families in poor areas, many of them actually in work, end up needing more input from social services or the NHS.
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Pentagathus

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2015, 10:29:21 AM »
What happens in the case of multiple births? Also could someone detail the main points of the reform because I can only find specific things being debated.

Jubal

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2015, 11:55:01 AM »
  • Cuts to working tax credits, the money that gets paid to low earners to supplement their income
  • Lowered cap on benefits to no more than £20K per household
  • Allows government to arbitrarily change benefit cap in future without consulting parliament
  • Redefines government measurements of child poverty, measuring it by whether parents are in work rather than an income level (so if you're in work but can't afford food, you still won't be in poverty according to future sets of statistics)
  • Limits child benefits within universal credit to first two children, and child tax credits to first two children for all births after April 2017.

Having read the legislation, there's no loophole for multiple births; if you have triplets you will only get paid tax credit on two of them. You do still get allowances for extra children if they are disabled.
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Clockwork

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2015, 12:13:27 PM »
@Penty: I read it here dude http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/2015-2016/0051/cbill_2015-20160051_en_1.htm

The main points are:

Benefits capped at £20k (£23k for London)
Try to keep the cost of social housing low
Social mobility is good
Kids being raised by dumbass parents is bad.
You should only get a mortgage you can actually afford.

@Jub/Penty There's already a clause for multiple births. "Support for children through tax credits and universal credits will also be limited to two children, affecting children born after April 2017 unless the third child is the result of twins, triplets or other multiple birth."

@Jub If you work, you can afford food, if you choose not to spend it on food that's another thing. We have a minimum wage and working benefits, separate from unemployment, parental and other social benefits.

@Jub

No, the kid is not punished. The parents are punished, the parents can still feed/clothe/shelter their kids but what they can't do now is buy many, or any, luxuries. If your idea of child poverty is not going on a yearly holiday, you've got priority issues. What is does mean is that you *should* only have kids of you can afford them. If you can't, the state will pay for two. How is this in any way unfair? No Jub, people on low income with young kids don't work. AFAIK they don't get helpers paid for them while they work, but even if they did, it's not financially worth it. No offence mate but you come from a pretty affluent area, went to an expensive uni in an expensive city, afaik not been on benefits yourself and don't know what really does affect the people you're so intent on 'helping'. These things don't affect the people that just got unlucky or haven't got the ability/good health/whatever to break out of needing benefits. What they do is make it more difficult for people who live on benefits because they don't want to work and reduces the financial gain from having more kids. I don't know if you quite understand it but at the present, girls are making a sham career of spawning a litter from different fathers who don't live with them and can't contribute to their childrens' welfare.

How exactly then do you figure this will lead to greater expenditure than now?

And it's passed.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 12:19:55 PM by Colossus »
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Pentagathus

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2015, 12:32:48 PM »
My sister and her fiancee are both working on low incomes with a young child. In fact most folk I know in these circumstances are in work, and I do know quite a lot of them even though I'm from the same area as jubal btw. I thivnk would  actually  be quite happy with this policy, although I am a bit concerned with the redefinition of child poverty. I can't help feeling doubtful that the Tory government will do little to combat child poverty, and frankly these reforms are going to increase child poverty if there isn't a coordinated drive to reduce it.
Edit:
Is the cut to housing support for under 21s still going ahead?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 12:45:58 PM by Pentagathus »

Clockwork

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2015, 01:03:32 PM »
Fair enough then Penty. But then they're doing ok, right? Not like they have tons of money, sure, but they eat and such.

Yeah 16(possibly 18, can't remember)-21 won't automatically be able to apply for a house, there's a means test and such things in place now.
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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2015, 02:36:54 PM »
The social housing costs stuff isn't bad, but we can't keep the cost of social housing low and the quality of social housing effective unless we invest some capital in actually building new social housing - the government seems rather keen on doing the opposite and trying to sell off social housing stock. Also, yes, cuts to housing support are going ahead; there is some fluff text about "exemptions for hardship cases" but not any detail on how these will be administered yet. There's clearly an aim that out of work U21s should be forced to stay with their parents where possible, which concerns me as some families will just kick their kids onto the street at that age.

Cambridge is undeniably affluent - my home area, as Penty says, really rather less so, there are a fair few middle class people but also pockets of extremely low pay and poor housing in rural areas, which often are much less well geared up to deal with those problems than city areas. Working benefits are being frozen - the minimum wage is increasing which will partly counter that, as long as you're not self-employed, but the increased wage will only cover part of the losses for low-wage workers. If you are self-employed the news is only bad, of course; I'm not really sure why the government dislikes the self-employed, but they get no breaks to make up for their loss of tax credits whatsoever.

People on low income with young kids often do work - older kids looking after younger ones, two-parent households trying to scrape by on one low-wage job, etc. The idea that it will ultimately be the parents not the kids who suffer from this is, I think, spurious, and also takes a very tight definition of "luxury". Sure, a foreign holiday is a luxury. But what about, say, books, or being able to buy toys for your children? These are not necessities for survival, but it's well known that children who lack appropriate and diverse sensory inputs at a young age will go on to do less well in school. The reason I have done well in life is, as much as anything else, because I was brought up in a house where I had books, computers, etc. Do I think we should try to make sure work pays better than benefits? Sure. Do I think that is best done by humiliating those who are out of work into a lifestyle that revolves solely around survival to the detriment of even having the resources to bring up their children well? No, and that's what this bill is set to do.

Quote
These things don't affect the people that just got unlucky or haven't got the ability/good health/whatever to break out of needing benefits.
This simply isn't true. For just one example, the benefit cap. If you're "using" most of your 20K cap for housing benefit because you've got artificially inflated house rents in your area (eg London, but also with the lower cap most city centres), then lose your job through no fault of your own, you'll probably end up getting kicked out of your house. The reforms do thankfully by and large exempt the disabled, though support for them is being cut elsewhere.

I'm not suggesting overall expenditure will increase, but there will be fewer savings than anticipated, social problems as a result of low income may well increase which means more pressure for social services and potentially police, and things like diets will get worse meaning storing up more future problems for the NHS. This bill is implemented with the assumption that large families are purely down to the fact that benefits allow people to afford them, something that simply isn't borne out by the evidence. It's also based on the assumption that when faced with tighter financial circumstances parents will make sound decisions for their children and their upbringing - also something a little hard to justify from the evidence base. I don't think we will see a shrinkage in family sizes after this bill, and haven't seen any evidence as yet that would indicate otherwise.

Anyway, a) too tired to go hammer and tongs at this, did that on twitter plenty already
b) moved to new thread
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Pentagathus

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Re: UK Welfare Reforms 2015
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2015, 03:02:32 PM »
Fair enough then Penty. But then they're doing ok, right? Not like they have tons of money, sure, but they eat and such.

Yeah 16(possibly 18, can't remember)-21 won't automatically be able to apply for a house, there's a means test and such things in place now.
Aye, they're far enough from any reasonable definition of poverty and they'll be fine without tax credits, was just pointing out you can in fact live on low wages with young children. In fact I think my sister hasn't yet claimed working tax credit, although I'm not too sure and obviously anecdotal evidence is not the best evidence anyway.
Edit:
The cut off of housing support worries me when you consider how hard it can be to prove estrangement from family.

Clockwork

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Re: UK Welfare Reforms 2015
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2015, 04:41:05 PM »
@Penty, right that illustrates my point quite nicely then. True about the housing, I think that's probably where the actual damage of the amendment is done and yet there's not a lot of coverage of it.

Fair enough about your neighbourhood, your county as a whole though, is one of the more well off in the country. (Not through average wage alone, through lack of poverty and crime and such)

People on low income (working) with kids get paid child benefit if the household income is under £50kpa. If you're scraping by, then you're not good at managing money which isn't the fault of the government and isn't their responsibility to bail you out. Regardless, the amendments don't change anything to do with that for families already on the benefits. It's only for ones after april 2017, if you have kids after that time, knowing that you won't get benefits for them then really it's your own fault and the government shouldn't bail out stupidity.

As to why the government doesn't like the self-employed, I have no earthly idea what you're on about, if you've proof to say they don't get exemptions please share. Afaik they actually get exemptions *and* business rates, the best of both. Again, that's not really relevant as the amendments didn't really go for self-employed anyway.

Quote
Do I think we should try to make sure work pays better than benefits? Sure. Do I think that is best done by humiliating those who are out of work into a lifestyle that revolves solely around survival to the detriment of even having the resources to bring up their children well? No, and that's what this bill is set to do.

Is your idea to congratulate people who don't work then? Go for it, don't work, people who work do it just because they love it so damn much. Survival isn't an issue, if you flat out die due to lack of money, you're doing it wrong. Not everyone can be 'brought up well' but it's the parents and the values, morals and wisdom they teach you rather than how much stuff you have, I didn't take you for a materialist and honestly it's weird I'm taking this line...

Quote
This simply isn't true. For just one example, the benefit cap. If you're "using" most of your 20K cap for housing benefit because you've got artificially inflated house rents in your area (eg London, but also with the lower cap most city centres), then lose your job through no fault of your own, you'll probably end up getting kicked out of your house. The reforms do thankfully by and large exempt the disabled, though support for them is being cut elsewhere.

You realise £30k is a decent income for a lot of people. £20k just in benefits, plus whatever you earn is a good amount of money. If you're on low income, one of the dangers is that if you're not in social housing rent may just skyrocket and you'll be evicted. That's part global economics, part local housing market, part national housing market, which a government can only do so much to protect against without encroaching too much in the free market, creating it's own problems and in turn failing the market.

It seems that for some reason you think that you can just spend money all over the place providing everything for everyone and somehow the country will pay for it. Sure it creates a better workforce in the future, but there won't be a future if the country goes bankrupt before it happens.
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Jubal

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Re: UK Welfare Reforms 2015
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2015, 06:03:08 PM »
Quote
if you have kids after that time, knowing that you won't get benefits for them then really it's your own fault and the government shouldn't bail out stupidity.
Sure, which I'd be fine with if I thought that what would happen in these cases was that the parents would dutifully cut back on any wasteful expenditure to ensure their children were still provided for. But there seems to be rather little evidence that will actually happen.

Re the self employed: they don't usually have to pay VAT, and if you're earning under about 5K you don't have to pay NI (a threshold which is rising), but then if you're earning under 5K you're not earning enough to live on anyway. If we take the example of a roughly minimum wage self employed person earning about 9K per year, the effects of this budget are primarily that it's becoming far harder to claim working tax credits and you get less far money when you do. For workers in employment on min wage, the loss of tax credits will be offset by higher wages: there will be (obviously) no such jump for the self-employed as nobody's employing them, leaving them worse off.

As I said above, I'd be happy for us to reduce housing benefit via getting more people into social housing. But the government actively wants to decrease social housing stock, whereas IMO it should be a massive focus for capital investment.

Onto the broader point - no, I don't think people should be congratulated for not working, but nor do I think they should be vilified or scapegoated. I absolutely don't think we can provide everything for everyone, but given we're not even means-testing the free bus passes we dole out to sixty-eight year old millionaires the focus on the young, the self employed, and children as targets of cuts is hardly fair. It's also stupid. If a business used and trained its workforce as badly as the UK does it would go bust in pretty short order - not investing in the future of our economy, and relying on a small and shrinking pool of the better off to provide our talent and future high-end employees, will in the long run destroy our ability to produce and compete. Do you really, honestly, truly think that all the rich people in this country are just there because they have "better values"? I'm extremely proud of and grateful for the morals and values my family have imparted to me, but I know full well that the access I had to educational materials, to things that helped me learn and gave me opportunities, was far better than for many of the friends I had at primary and high school who were on far lower incomes. To pretend otherwise is ludicrous.
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Clockwork

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Re: UK Welfare Reforms 2015
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2015, 10:50:28 PM »
And why should we finance them when we can't afford it? Where is this money coming from?

The amendments do not say anything about make it more difficult to claim and aren't giving less money for working tax credits. You realise that you can't actually get £20 in working tax credits alone? And no, employers are under no obligation to pay workers that get lower tax credits for whatever reason the difference or whatever.

Quote
But the government actively wants to decrease social housing stock
Where does it say this? To me the amendment looks like it supports social housing.

It would literally cost more to means test the very few millionaire OAPs who get bus passes than it would just to let them take a ride free. And you're literally just posturing at this point, the cuts target large families that can't support themselves due to dumbassery and if the UK was a business? It'd continue being a business unlike if Greece was a business, then it'd have to undergo company liquidation. As to why rich people are rich, again it's irrelevant, my point was that it's not resources that make a child want to be better, its the people around them and it's role models.
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Jubal

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Re: UK Welfare Reforms 2015
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2015, 12:45:27 AM »
This welfare bill goes hand in hand with the budget, you may be shocked to learn. Working tax credits are being cut dramatically by lowering the taper threshold beyond which they get withdrawn to very far below minimum wage; that's just a fact. The taper rate is also faster now. It's in the budget not the welfare reform bill, but it's still happening and still needs to be taken into account when looking at the impacts of these reforms.

As for social housing; the government is pushing the amount social housing providers are able to charge down, in order to cut the housing benefit bill. Which is not unreasonable in times when funds are desperately tight, but will restrict the ability of said providers to build as they'll end up running at a weaker margin and will have less money to invest. Meanwhile, with this making it harder for social providers to build new homes on the one hand, on the other the government has been fighting (currently locked in arguments with the HoL and courts) to extend Right to Buy to housing associations, which irreparably damages social housing stock by removing it from the social sector and putting it into the private sector. Again, the one bill does not show the full story of the government's policy, but overall the government is pursuing policies that will decrease social housing in the UK.
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Clockwork

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Re: UK Welfare Reforms 2015
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2015, 01:47:10 PM »
I get that bud, but that's not the topic and the two actually can be looked at in isolation, you can say: well the budget sucked but these bill amendments should help/these amendments make it suck more.

As it happens though: Yep working tax credits taper is being slashed, however minimum wage is going up. Significantly (see link). Because of the cuts, which will lead to the country as a whole having more money, things will be cheaper because people will have more real disposable income. This in turn means that while, yep the next 2 years are going to hurt, after that short amount of time things will get better. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-33437115

Quote
Which is not unreasonable in times when funds are desperately tight, but will restrict the ability of said providers to build as they'll end up running at a weaker margin and will have less money to invest.
Umm...you realise that all social housing providers are non-profit anyway? Besides that, you want the person who needs social housing to pay more so that there's more social houses? That seems very unlike you. I'll be weird again and say that it's the councils or borough councils or whatever to provide the costs of building more social housing (which they do). They get this money btw from the tax that these people living in these social housing now pay due to them actually having a home and all that.

If you do want to talk about the budget though, it's looking pretty good tbh.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/summer-budget-2015-key-announcements Here is a list of key points, the whole thing is more difficult to read, but I'd recommend it if you're being thorough.

Dude, businesses will be able to hire 4 people *full time* and pay no NI. This means more work for those out of a job, which leads to not needing benefits, which leads to the money allocated for benefits going to the people that need it most. Which in turn feeds back into the point that working tax credits will be less needed.

And my bad before, I was wrong on the childcare:
Quote
20. 30 hours of free childcare for 3 and 4 year olds
From September 2017, working families with 3 and 4 year olds will receive 30 hours of free childcare – an increase from the 15 hours they’re currently offered.
For some reason this totally slipped my mind. But hey, I read the thing weeks ago.

Also it says they're spending an extra 300mpa on mental health services, one of your concerns noted earlier.

One of the few things I do dislike is the crackdown on organised crime selling booze and cigs.
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