1:4 scale units (on huge unit size)

[DCLXVIMRTRVEBLAKKOKKVLTDCLXVI]

Hi guys,

One of my greatest issues with total war games is that the number of men in battles is much less than in real life. The maximum size of units in rtw is 243 and the maximum number of units is 20. Which means that the maximum number of men in a battle is almost 5000. 2 full stacks means 10000 units. Most modern PC's can handle that easily (mine can handle 18000 with vanilla, 12000-15000 with most mods) My proposal is to use a fixed scale for units sizes. I think the scale of 1:4, that would mean we represent 1000 men with an unit of 243 men. We could increase the size of most units that were historically not very small in number to 243 just like in RSII(I). This would also mean a greater contrast with elephant units which unit size ratio compared to other troops cannot be represented in a realistic manner on the RTW engine, unless the number of men in other units is increased. We would also need to adjust the cost of most units. Please tell me what you think even if you think this is a bad idea.

[ahowl11]

I'm not sure on this really. Isn't the ratio that we have that way now?

[DCLXVIMRTRVEBLAKKOKKVLTDCLXVI]

Well most of our units count 160 men, some 120 or 200 and a few 240. Also our cavalry units are smaller than in vanilla rtw.

[ahowl11]

Honestly it depends on how much man power it would drain, how the ai handles it, balance of battles etc

[DCLXVIMRTRVEBLAKKOKKVLTDCLXVI]

Well battles in RSII (in which most units count 243 men) are pretty hard and well balanced... unless you have slingers

[ahowl11]

That is something that I do not want, is that dumb slinger tactic.

[DCLXVIMRTRVEBLAKKOKKVLTDCLXVI]

Well the problem with slingers is RSII specific, it's fixed in RSIII and it's very unlikely to happen in a 2 hitpoint system with high lethality values compared to a 1 hp system with low lethality values. The RTR Project has 2hp and high lethality, RSII has low lethality and 1hp.

[Gigantus]

Most modern PC's can handle that easily (mine can handle 18000 with vanilla, 12000-15000 with most mods)

It's a matter of individual CPU core speed.

[DCLXVIMRTRVEBLAKKOKKVLTDCLXVI]

Well I'm trying to represent the unit sizes in rtw with a +/-1:4 (actually 4,166 scale) scale (on huge unit size) camillian hastati, principes and triarii were 900 men strong, polybian hastati & principes were 1200 men strong, polybian triarii however were only 600 men in strength. All this would require to have seperate camillian and polybian units.

So my sugestion for the unit sizes is:
Equites Extraordinarii   144
Pedites Extraordinarii   200 (2 units per army)
Cam. Hastati               216
"        Principes            216
"        Triarii                 216
"        Equites              72
"        Rorarii                216
"        Leves                 72
"        Accensi              216
Pol.    Hastati               144
"        Principes            240 (or 288 if someone fixes the launcher)
"        Triarii                  240 (or 288 if someone fixes the launcher)
"        Equites               72
"        Velites                240 (or 288 if someone fixes the launcher)
"        Allied Hastati      144
"        "        Principes   240 (or 288 if someone fixes the launcher)
"        "        Triarii        240 (or 288 if someone fixes the launcher)
"        "        Equites     216

[Vrosivs Avgvstvs Rakvs]

Most modern PC's can handle that easily (mine can handle 18000 with vanilla, 12000-15000 with most mods)

It's a matter of individual CPU core speed.

Regarding that, the steam version is god awful, I don't know about the non-steam one. My i7-4770k bottlenecks with 3k+ units on the field, my fps drops below 15 most of the time.

[Gigantus]

3.5GHz is usually fast enough, some graphics cards have problems handling the grass (distance set too far).

[Vrosivs Avgvstvs Rakvs]

I have a 760GTX though, that really shouldn't be a problem, idk
and a 16GB RAM, if that's of any relevance

[Gigantus]

I agree, but then it s rather weird how graphics are handled in RTW\M2TW. If a reduction of the effects (shadow, grass distance etc) increases your frame rate then you can understand what I mean.

[Gen.jamesWolfe]

What of the 1:20 size? Works well for my Seven Years War mod.

And if a unit by itself is too small, you can merge it with others similar, which would free up slots.

So a regiment of cavalry in the Hellenistic period would be 50 men on huge; a Roman legion would total 240 men.

I admit this would make units small on Huge compared to other mods, but you get the advantage that you can accurately represent the organization, strength, and size of most ancient armies.

here's one scheme, for example (consular army, four legions):

2x velites (90 men each)
2x hastati (180 men each)
2x principes (180 men each)
2x triarii (90 men each)
2x equites (30 men each)

here I merge two legions' worth of men into one unit, for the sake of having sufficient strength, but also to allow the representation of the large auxiliary corps.

The other ten units would then have 1 general, and 9 auxiliaries of your choosing.

A late republican Legion could then be as follows:

1 "first cohort" unit (120 men)
1 "regular" unit (120 men)

You could also go with a single legion, 240 men strong, with eagle included.

A taxis of cavalry in this scheme would be 50 men; the phalangites can be made to represent 4 regiments (total strength ~240 men).