Author Topic: Woolwich Attack  (Read 9281 times)

Gen_Glory

  • Patrikios
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 3106
  • Karma: 11
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Woolwich Attack
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2013, 02:25:31 PM »
im sure cobra in the emergency council sense stands for something different to the G.I Joe cobra

a lot of eyewitnesses believe the two men were on drugs, drugs mixed with deadly weapons and deadly ideologies is not a good mix
Tis but a scratch...


TTG4

  • Citizens
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 416
  • Karma: 4
  • Plants are my passion!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Woolwich Attack
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2013, 02:32:22 PM »
I'm with Jubal here, in order to break an 'organisation' with as loose a leadership as many of these small groups of violent extremists we need to make sure there isn't a vulnerable pool of people to brainwash in this way.

Last I heard eyewitnesses were saying they seemed calm (as calm as you can be while commiting such an attack at any rate), either way in order to do it on drugs the ideas need to be there in the first place.

The COBRA strategy may have worked with a more organised group, but I suspect this is a small group, possibly only radicalised by a single preacher, or even over the internet, you only need to spend around 20 minutes on youtube to find radicalising videos.

Gen_Glory

  • Patrikios
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 3106
  • Karma: 11
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Woolwich Attack
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2013, 02:33:23 PM »
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22635379

I stand corrected, woman who confronted the man believes he was in total control, just very upset
Tis but a scratch...


Clockwork

  • Charming Prince of Darkness
  • Citizens
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 2055
  • Karma: 17
  • Bitter? Me? portugal no, I think it's hilarious.
  • Awards Came first in the Summer 2020 Exilian forum pub quiz
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Woolwich Attack
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2013, 05:29:21 PM »
@DD, yes I'm aware that GI Joe is merely a cartoon :P

If they're so fed up with how this country acts they can portugal off. No time for this kind of thing, nobody has the right to do this no matter what you believe is happening or what anyone tells you to do. This pisses me off more than all the X-Men movies combined. And seriously don't get me started on those.
Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense.


Pentagathus

  • King of the Wibulnibs
  • Posts: 2713
  • Karma: 20
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Woolwich Attack
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2013, 06:29:15 PM »
Portugal off to where though? To afghanistan so they can fight our soldiers on the frontline? Does that make it better somehow?

Jubal

  • Megadux
    Executive Officer
  • Posts: 35658
  • Karma: 140
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Woolwich Attack
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2013, 07:42:35 PM »
We do see different events differently though.

I mean, racially motivated murders against Middle Eastern/African origin Muslims would be considered racially motivated murders, whereas this is being considered terrorism. I mean, this is a particularly disgusting, brutal and public murder, of course, but at the end of the day murder is murder.

Take a look at this case for example;
http://www.worldbulletin.net/?aType=haber&ArticleID=109661

Obviously less public, obviously received less attention, but frankly anyone who's so fed up of this country being a tolerant, caring society that they feel the need to stab a 75 year old man to death can portugal off every bit as much as those who want it to be run by extreme interpretations of Sharia law. And therein lies this issue, there's nowhere for them to go. This is our problem, and no matter how comforting it is to think we can just kick the evildoers back from whence they came the underlying issues need solutions that consist of more than (admittedly entirely justified) anger.
The duke, the wanderer, the philosopher, the mariner, the warrior, the strategist, the storyteller, the wizard, the wayfarer...

Pentagathus

  • King of the Wibulnibs
  • Posts: 2713
  • Karma: 20
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Woolwich Attack
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2013, 08:19:12 PM »
I'd say it was politically motivated rather than racially, but I'm not sure if it should be considered terrorism.

comrade_general

  • Guest
Re: Woolwich Attack
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2013, 08:25:21 PM »


Problem solved. :)

Gen_Glory

  • Patrikios
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 3106
  • Karma: 11
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Woolwich Attack
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2013, 08:29:41 PM »


I AM THE LAW!
Tis but a scratch...


TTG4

  • Citizens
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 416
  • Karma: 4
  • Plants are my passion!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Woolwich Attack
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2013, 11:25:30 AM »
I'd say it was politically motivated rather than racially, but I'm not sure if it should be considered terrorism.

From what he said in the video it was quite clearly political. He addressed everyone in the country telling us to get rid of our leaders and withraw our troops. I'm quite certain this could easily have been done to a soldier of any race, or by an attacker of any race it just happened to be that it was these two. Also, it seems to have emerged that the security services identified the attackers as having extremist links, so perhaps it was a sensible precaution to convene COBRA as at the time it was possible it was just one attack of many.

Jubal

  • Megadux
    Executive Officer
  • Posts: 35658
  • Karma: 140
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Woolwich Attack
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2013, 11:49:09 AM »
I just a) don't think there was anything COBRA could reasonably do and b) I think COBRA meetings shouldn't be announced with the amount of fanfare there was, just panics people more.
The duke, the wanderer, the philosopher, the mariner, the warrior, the strategist, the storyteller, the wizard, the wayfarer...

Clockwork

  • Charming Prince of Darkness
  • Citizens
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 2055
  • Karma: 17
  • Bitter? Me? portugal no, I think it's hilarious.
  • Awards Came first in the Summer 2020 Exilian forum pub quiz
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Woolwich Attack
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2013, 12:22:15 PM »
Portugal off to where though? To afghanistan so they can fight our soldiers on the frontline? Does that make it better somehow?
Yes and yes. Our soldiers can then legally and rightfully kill them. (most)Citizens don't have the capability to fight back against armed assailants.

Yes Jubal, agreed about that case, if they think that in any way stabbing a defenceless old man to death is in any way justified, they can be sent away for the rest of their lives.

The reason the Woolwich muder was a political or terrorist killing was a) because they filmed it. Then it becomes a pornographic (not regular parlance use) item to be used to further fuel hate crime. b) They declared that it was for their religion, and being a part of a group that is politically islamic and is known to associate with terrorists. It's naivety to think that this was just a murder and that the two cases are comparable.

The reason COBRA was involved is because this is a terrorist threat. It's not just those two guys, they had a group of like minded people each willing to do the same in an attempt to martyr themselves(failed) and stand as a figurehead for 'Islamic freedom'. Reason to announce that COBRA was involved is likely to show that every effort is being made to stop this from happening again. Some people panic more, I'm however quite reassured it's being taken as seriously as it deserves.
Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense.


Jubal

  • Megadux
    Executive Officer
  • Posts: 35658
  • Karma: 140
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Woolwich Attack
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2013, 01:40:20 PM »
Except of course we can't send them to Afghanistan because they're not Afghans.

I wasn't claiming the two cases were directly comparable, but there are similarities - any hate crime is in some sense designed to increase fear and mistrust in a particular community. This one clearly was an extremely explicit and disgusting act of terrorism and was very public for media effect, but I just think the Prime Minister wasn't dealing with it in quite the right way.

Been extremely disturbed by reports of revenge attacks on mosques this morning.
The duke, the wanderer, the philosopher, the mariner, the warrior, the strategist, the storyteller, the wizard, the wayfarer...

Pentagathus

  • King of the Wibulnibs
  • Posts: 2713
  • Karma: 20
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Woolwich Attack
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2013, 02:23:45 PM »
Portugal off to where though? To afghanistan so they can fight our soldiers on the frontline? Does that make it better somehow?

Yes and yes. Our soldiers can then legally and rightfully kill them. (most)Citizens don't have the capability to fight back against armed assailants.
But they didn't attack any (civilian) citizens, although they had plenty of opportunity to do so. We are actually at war, and we have been for more than a decade. We also chose to enter these wars. That does make our soldiers legitimate targets for the enemy, whether they are at home or fighting in a foreign country. There isn't actually any wartime law that says if you invade a foreign country then you can't expect them to fight you on your home turf, and its ridiculous to expect that to be the case. The only truly controversial thing about this incident is the mutilation of the soldier and that the attackers were native britons, so wouldn't be expected to be the enemy.
Now I'm not agreeing with the attack, but I can certainly sympathise with the attackers (well, at least the one who seems to be from a nigerian christian family, haven't heard anything about the other guy) since they have actually tried to get us out of the war through peaceful protest (see his involvement with the Muslims against crusades movement.) They don't seem to be motivated by the fact that they are muslims, but rather by the fact that they believe our government is discriminating against muslims in an extremely heavy handed way, and has caused vast amounts of suffering and civilian casualties.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 02:25:20 PM by Pentagathus »

Jubal

  • Megadux
    Executive Officer
  • Posts: 35658
  • Karma: 140
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Woolwich Attack
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2013, 02:55:13 PM »
Soldiers outside a war zone are not legitimate targets (hence the dubious legality over the sinking of the Belgrano in the Falkland's War for example). And furthermore the Taliban aren't, in international law terms, a legitimate state so they can't really have legitimate targets. By international law we're not actually invading or occupying anywhere, we're in Afghanistan and other places with the express permission of their recognised governments. Furthermore, this was an act of terror rather than war since the aim clearly wasn't to remove military personnel who were threatening Afghan civilians. They were just killing a guy as a publicity stunt - both sickening, and stupidly and excessively counterproductive. Finally, as you point out, they were UK citizens so can't make an act of war on their own country. That's sort of the point of this democracy thing we have; the people of this country have a say in who runs the country, and they in turn control whether or not we're at war.

Muslims against Crusades was an organisation which believed Muslims are "not obliged to obey the law of the land in whatever country they reside". They were barely peaceful, and set out very deliberately to act in an inflammatory manner. People can believe what they like about what our government is doing to Muslims, but regardless of the intended ends the means cannot be sympathised with or justified in any sense to my mind.
The duke, the wanderer, the philosopher, the mariner, the warrior, the strategist, the storyteller, the wizard, the wayfarer...