Author Topic: Miliband = tool?  (Read 9555 times)

Clockwork

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2015, 06:12:42 PM »
Exactly which barriers to entry would even apply Jub? Given we have laws preventing barriers to entry from being a thing pretty much at all and new businesses starting up get government help and are incentivised in other ways for doing so. You can't always undercut monopoly prices, but then this was never disputed, especially when monopolies sell at under the market value which they can do because they are monopolies. At which point the argument is moot because this was about monopolies fixing prices too high. Neoclassical economics sounds like its way outdated sure, but in fact its still used alongside Keynesian economics to produce what we use all the time or offshoots. The assumptions used are nothing particularly radical: businesses want to make money, consumers want to pay the lowest price.

@Penty. Because they are highly educated economists, the £50bn shortfall was for the treasury rather than just tax, the mention of the low income peoples was a reminder that in this proposal, the difference isn't being made up by other forms of tax. Ok if you feel more comfortable trusting a government than a business, that's up to you. More power to you to make that decision. I doubt you're wondering but anyway: I trust governments to be good with... actually very little and businesses to at least be relied on to try to make money.

As a good friend once told me 'You can always trust a dishonest man to be dishonest, honestly, its the honest ones you want to watch out for. You never know when they'll do something incredibly....stupid'

De-incentiving businesses I feel is more of an issue than you seem to give credit for but I do understand and your logic is sound, I just disagree with priorities here. HK uses a flat tax rate its just that flat tax, despite the name, doesn't have to mean everyone is taxed at exactly the same rate. There are things like NIT (negative income tax) which is a flat tax even though it doesn't include either word in its name.
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Jubal

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2015, 07:58:27 PM »
Take energy or water, for example; the amount of kit/ownerships needed to actually start in the industry is so vast that basically any pretence that a free market is operating is a bit of a sham. In terms of assumptions, a good example would be that neoclassical and classical economics both assume perfect knowledge, which is clearly bullarmadillo and makes a lot of difference at the consumer end. It's often simply not the case that the market allows the most superior, cost-effective product to win out. As you rightly say, we can trust businesses only to try and make money. Why, then, would we trust them not to be doing whatever they can to avoid having to produce the best goods for the best price? Their whole raison d'etre would imply they should be trying to produce the cheapest goods and selling them at the highest price that they can get away with, and the market can't always fix that when you take into account that people have a lot of reasons for buying products other than their actual cost-effectiveness.

I guess my view is that the market is a tool; there are some problems you can solve with it, and there are some things it's damn good at. For many standard consumer goods, competition can be fairly good at encouraging innovation and pushing prices down. The downside is that there are a lot of places where market solutions just don't make sense. These especially occur where goods are very basic, hard to have competition over, represent a "public good" where we can save money by just bulk providing them for everyone, or some mix of the above. I'm not actually a massive statist generally: I don't like the idea of too much power being concentrated in the government's hands. But I do think we need to be even more wary of businesses, not least given it's significantly harder to get rid of them.
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Pentagathus

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2015, 08:01:06 PM »
HK doesn't use flat tax, its often described as a flat tax but its nothing like the flat tax rate you are advocating.

Edit:
I'll admit I haven't checked out any of the sources listed on this (who was time for that armadillo?) and its from 2007 but regarding HKs tax system this is my best source http://archive.freedomandprosperity.org/Papers/hongkong/hongkong.shtml

Also as to trusting businesses to make money, yeah well why would I give a damn if a business makes money if I gain no benefit from it? If my government manages to take revenue from that business and place it into my society then I probably want that business to succeed but if I can't trust my government to do that then I probably have no reason to care.
2nd edit: The above paragraph is actually really stupid, please ignore. I shall try again.
I can trust a business to make profit but if they make a profit at my expense (and since we were talking about increasing the price of basic commodities then lets say they do this by grain speculation) then I would like to trust my government to prevent that business exploiting me (by preventing grain speculation from occurring and by preventing the need for it in the first place by preventing exploitation of farmers.) If I can't trust my government to do this I would have incentive to effect a change within my current governing system, which thankfully I have some (very much limited when talking about me as an individual) power to do so in a democratic system.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 09:00:12 PM by Pentagathus »

Clockwork

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2015, 09:23:37 PM »
No offence bud but it looks like you don't really know what market value means, it has nothing to do with cost-effectiveness. Also, nowhere did I say businesses only want to make money. Sometimes profit isn't even the goal and shareholder satisfaction is or other things like that. Perfect knowledge, completely irrelevant here, is more and more a realistic assumption (as in people generally know what price milk is or how much car insurance should be). We have a load of energy providers, no idea about water but I don't see why we shouldn't. They're not examples of difficult markets to break into.

This is a weird thing I've noticed, I'm quite happy to give government a load of power until it comes to economics, whereas you're the opposite. Got to be some kind of explanation for that.

@Penty, for the exact reason that I don't know which type of flat tax would be suitable I didn't say what the type of flat tax would be, just that they're a good idea.

Why give a damn if businesses make money? They contribute to increasing GDP which boosts the value of our currency, which means that everything we have costs proportionally less.

EDIT: Commodities controlled by the market aren't more expensive than ones controlled by governments. Businesses that exploit their customers don't survive. Preventing the exploitation of suppliers is an issue but taking your earlier logic, why care if it doesn't affect you? It's also irrelevant here.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 09:49:25 PM by Colossus »
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Pentagathus

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2015, 09:37:17 PM »
Why give a damn if businesses make money? They contribute to increasing GDP which boosts the value of our currency, which means that everything we have costs proportionally less.
Yeah I know thats why I admitted I was being stupid  :P . I'm aware its exceedingly naive to trust a government without scrutiny but it's also exceedingly naive to trust businesses not to exploit consumers and no offence but I think its pretty stupid to say they are incapable of this when it is quite obviously done on a regular basis in countries without effective government and even in countries with relatively effective government (again any of the examples I have given.)
HK's optional flat tax is exceedingly different to the flat tax proposed by right wing groups in the UK (for example UKIP) so I don't see how it can be used as an argument for flat tax in general. I've yet to see any actual evidence that the flat tax system advocated by folk in the UK would benefit anyone but higher earners.

Pentagathus

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2015, 02:52:27 PM »
Sorry for the double post, thought it might be less confusing than editing again.
No offence bud but it looks like you don't really know what market value means, it has nothing to do with cost-effectiveness.
It can have quite a lot to do with cost-effectiveness, you can't make a profit by selling a product for less than your production costs so decreasing production costs (ie increasing cost-effectiveness of production) can decrease market value.

And yes businesses can exploit consumers, lets go back to energy providers in the UK. As you mentioned we have quite a few of them (well we have a few anyway) at the moment but if you look back a few years thats really not the case. The "big 6" energy suppliers  who still massively dominate the market used to be an oligopoly and without regulation almost certainly still would be. You see energy supply does take a large investment to start up and this alone is enough to deter a fair amount of business. But once a new supplier starts up they introduce competition to the big 6 (since the big 6 can quite easily collude to keep profits high whilst they form an oligopoly they won't have had much before) which the big 6 would not be overly happy about. Since the big 6 have already been making massive profits they could afford to employ short term predatory pricing for long enough to bankrupt their new competitor. Now this would be good for consumers in the short term but once the new competitor is driven out of business the big 6 can then hike up prices again and we go back to the oligopoly exploiting consumers. Following the fate of the previous competitor new businesses will be severely deterred from trying to break into this market (and anyone in a position to lend finance to start up a new business in this market will be similarly deterred.) As to why this hasn't happened in the UK its because we do have government regulation of businesses. The fact that independent energy suppliers are an option for us is not an argument against regulation of business but rather an argument for it (actually there is still an investigation ongoing into whether the big 6 have been colluding to drive up energy prices but I think this is more a matter of taking advantage of consumer's laziness and/or ignorance for the most part that allows them to dominate the market still.)

Clockwork

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2015, 05:15:57 PM »
No it really doesn't. The market value is an equilibrium at which the theoretical value of a product lies with respect to supply/demand/elasticity.

The fact that recently more suppliers have started up surely demonstrates my point? Profit is also irrelevant here. You also realise that once prices go down due to predatory pricing its more difficult to get them back up? That then the relationship between supply and demand changes so that people are no longer prepared to pay the high prices that were there before. Also the relationship between the producer and the supplier changes which then causes further long term effects on the supply/demand curve. The reason why this hasn't happened in the UK is that if the prices shot up, the companies would get an instant asston of competition from E-European suppliers.
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Pentagathus

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2015, 06:30:37 PM »
No it really doesn't. The market value is an equilibrium at which the theoretical value of a product lies with respect to supply/demand/elasticity.
Well supply of a product is affected by the cost of production, so yes even by the very vague definition you've already posted the cost effectiveness of production will affect the value of the product.
Would you mind stating what definition of market value you are using? Because (according to wikipedia) International Valuation Standards defines market value as "the estimated amount for which a property should exchange on the date of valuation between a willing buyer and a willing seller in an arm’s-length transaction after proper marketing wherein the parties had each acted knowledgeably, prudently, and without compulsion." Meaning that the seller has input into the market value, and any seller is going to have to take into account the cost of production when attempting to determine the value of their product.

The fact that recently more suppliers have started up surely demonstrates my point? Profit is also irrelevant here. You also realise that once prices go down due to predatory pricing its more difficult to get them back up? That then the relationship between supply and demand changes so that people are no longer prepared to pay the high prices that were there before. Also the relationship between the producer and the supplier changes which then causes further long term effects on the supply/demand curve. The reason why this hasn't happened in the UK is that if the prices shot up, the companies would get an instant asston of competition from E-European suppliers.
Why is profit irrelevant?
Once again energy supply is always going to have a high demand as its a necessary commodity, sure you can try to minimise energy consumption (which most people and business do already to some extent) but energy suppliers can rely on having a high demand, so in the example I gave they could easily raise prices after lowering them. Consumers may complain but short of interfering with the free market there is little they can do.
What does the E stand for in E-European? Regardless, any energy supplier not already active within the UK would still have to break into the UK market and would face the same costs as any supplier starting up in the UK and would be facing the same risks and deterrent.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 06:38:00 PM by Pentagathus »

Clockwork

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2015, 11:41:56 PM »
I just stated the definition I'm using, which is the same as the one you stated but using more economics words and less bs. But what its saying I think you've misinterpreted. What that means is: the estimated amount (the theoretical equilibrium) at which anything is sold at where each party has market knowledge and within a time frame which precludes long-term economics from being a thing.

Profit is irrelevant because you're talking about state owned/controlled markets. If profit was relevant there then it would be no different than a free market and this discussion would be pointless. The whole point of government controlled/influenced markets is that companies owned by governments do not have profit driven agenda but instead have shareholder (government and by extension the public) satisfaction in mind (that does not mean public services priority are comfort btw).

No, energy demand is *inelastic*, high or low is relatively unimportant. E is for Eastern. They have a growing skilled workforce working jobs which do not utilise their skills (basically the countries are waiting for infrastructure) who would jump at the chance to land a stake in a UK market. There *aren't* risks (any more than any other western European country) or deterrents from starting businesses in the UK, there are in fact incentives. http://www.ukbusinessgrants.org/
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Jubal

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2015, 12:39:23 AM »
Could we split this off from the main news thread, anyone? It' getting a tad cluttering.
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comrade_general

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Re: Miliband = tool?
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2015, 02:13:32 AM »
Done. Couldn't think of better title.

Pentagathus

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Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2015, 12:30:29 PM »
@ CG I'm not sure anyone here would disagree that Miliband is a tool, unless perhaps they were wanting to use harsher words.

@Rob As to market value I still fail to see how the seller is not going to take into account the cost of their supply or production when selling, meaning cost effectiveness would affect market value no? Regardless, I don't see why you mentioned market value in the first place, you may notice Jubal did not bring it up at all. Or to put it clearly, you utterly failed to refute his actual argument. If you want to attempt to refute it you need to address the points he actually made.
I do believe his point (apologies if I'm wrong about this Joobs)  is that free market should mean that for basic goods the lower price range for consumers reflects the cost-effectiveness of businesses (ie the cheapest suppliers of a particular good/service sell per unit to consumers at a price reasonably close to their cost per unit) however where monopolies are allowed to form within certain areas with high barriers to entry (the examples he gave were energy and water supplies which have the barriers of high starting costs due to requirement of extensive and expensive infrastructure) this is not what happens. And you seem to have attempted to refute this by using the UK energy supply industry of an example, which is invalid since as I (and you as well actually) have pointed out the UK energy supply industry is heavily regulated and is such not an example of free market.

There *aren't* risks (any more than any other western European country) or deterrents from starting businesses in the UK, there are in fact incentives. http://www.ukbusinessgrants.org/
What are you actually arguing the point for here? Because it seems like you are using an example of government regulation (in this case positive regulation, but still regulation) to advocate free market. To be clear I'm not arguing against the general introduction of competition within the marketplace, I'm arguing against allowing a completely free market.

Edit:
Sorry if I sound really condescending here, I'm just trying to keep track of what we're actually arguing for.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 05:21:51 PM by Pentagathus »

comrade_general

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Re: Miliband = tool?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2015, 01:20:17 PM »
I don't even know who he/she/it is I just took something from the OP. :P

Clockwork

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Re: Miliband = tool?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2015, 09:00:50 PM »
The fact that you didn't (don't?) know the terms used means that this has devolved from what was an argument on tax rate to what a free market is. For the past 3 posts or so I've just been telling you what terms mean and not arguing anything because I thought that you'd then look over whats been said and realise that actually some of the previous posts don't make a lot of sense or are flat out wrong.

I don't even see any points being made by either of you that a) I've accepted as a difference of opinion which has no determinable right/wrong answer b) refuted c) gave definition which makes point invalid.

Cost effectiveness is pointless to bring up (again), its a naturally occurring thing when you talk about markets. It's a given, there is no point in mentioning it. Elasticity is the point to argue, you could argue that because the energy market is inelastic, it needs more government control than a regular market, I'd have to agree. Then we'd argue about where to draw the line on which inelastic products need govt intervention and which don't or what degree of govt intervention is necessary before the risk of govt failure outweighs the risk of market failure. Things like that. By the way I just realised how much I fekkin love economics xD
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Glaurung

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Re: Miliband = tool?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2015, 09:42:42 PM »
I don't even know who he/she/it is I just took something from the OP. :P
Some explanation would probably be good for those who don't follow the UK political scene.

Ed Miliband is the current leader of the United Kingdom's Labour Party. My impression is that he's widely regarded as not very effective, hence an occasional nickname of "the Milipede". Depending on the outcome of the general election in May, he might well not be Labour leader for much longer.