Iraq Crisis 2014

[comrade_general]

Give it all back to Turkey.

[Gen_Glory]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28823281

you were saying?

[Jubal]

I'm cool for letting the SAS go in and do their thing like we plan to/ may have started already. Blast a bunch of ISIS guys into red paste, jobs done for the next 6 months until more Arabs decide they want an Islamic state and we have to do the same to them. In my opinion, the cycle will be endless, an Arab government just won't work it's been proven time and again.

Not quite sure what you mean by "an Arab government just won't work" - do you mean an Islamic state (which isn't really specific to ethnic Arabs), or are you just commenting on the general fragility of ethnically Arab states (except Qatar, Oman, the UAE, Jordan, Kuwait, etc, which is most of them ), or the idea of an overarching ethnic Arab state?

DD: I think what I said was that I didn't think it would help his polling much, though I guess trying to turn it into a "terror threat" might make that a better strategy for him. He might of course *think* it will help his poll ratings, even if it actually won't do much for them.

[Clockwork]

Both first and last one Jubs. But also, none of those states (to my knowledge) have yet got a decent justice system, not exactly what we're talking about but tangentially relevant. Reasons being that they're too barbarous, warlike and fragmented even amongst themselves.

Also, you know how Cameron said we won't put 'boots on the ground'? That's BS there's already 300 SAS guys there 'performing recon' which is slang for blowing stuff up and assassinations.

[Jubal]

I guess the assumption is that the SAS wear slippers, then? 

I don't think it's correct to characterise them as barbarous, warlike, or fragmented. Somewhere like Qatar is extremely advanced, is led by some exceptionally clever diplomats, and has remarkable national unity. It's still really quite an oppressive state and I'd agree their justice system is very flawed, but it's a lazy (albeit common) stereotype that all the Arab states are just a bunch of tribesmen running around with guns. There's a lot of money and a lot of development around the Arab gulf, and it's certainly not all going into war or papering over fragmentation. Some areas are much more similar to China; a growing middle class becoming contented by increased prosperity, which the central state is using as a carrot to avoid pressures for democracy.

I agree that a centralised ethno-religious Arab state is a fundamentally stupid and problematic idea, though, and we won't get rid of it anytime soon. I think we'll do far better sticking by counter-forces in the region (particularly the democratic ones like Kurdistan) than relying on continued military engagement though. Stability and having food to eat tend to be pretty good as forces to counteract the nutjobs, ISIS thrives on unstable areas where there are disaffected young men and where it's easy to ship in foreign brainwashed jihadi fighters.

And after all, if you look in the news for a place that's fragmented and warlike now, the most prominent example is Missouri...

[comrade_general]

Missouri...

Unfortunately far from the only place where the police are being militarized.

[Clockwork]

Barbarous doesn't have to mean tribesmen, you're distorting what I'm saying. It means brutal in this sense since I am in fact not a moron and realise that yes, they do actually have houses now. ;') Hill tribes are so 90's Mujahideen anyway (btw, why is that word out of use now? So much cooler than 'Jihadist' ). The barbarity comes from the implementation of their 'justice system' and the nature of unmoderated Islam. In each of those countries you mention, there are Jihadists, there is *staggering* racial intolerance, inequality like we couldn't imagine. You often criticise America or the Uk for not have a good enough social system. They have next to none.

[Gen_Glory]

Mujaheddin fought the soviets so are good guys (see Rambo and the Living daylights)

Jihadists fight the west so are bad guys ('MURICA)

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter

[Clockwork]

The words actually mean the same thing, they're just being used with different connotations... I actually found out that it seems to be because us good guys equipped 'The Mujahideen' of the 90's, who then turned into AQ so we decided to stop calling them that so people would think they're a different entity altogether.

[comrade_general]