31
Rome - Total Realism / Re: RTR on M2TWK
« on: October 10, 2016, 02:16:10 PM »
I told you to do that three years ago... but now I do agree with xeofox.
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32
Rome - Total Realism / Re: Maps for the campaign and startpos (to be continued)
« on: October 09, 2016, 11:15:52 PM »
i don`t`t see
maybe you have link to page with image (then try open image (not window with image) and copy link)
Damn... that is exactly what I did
33
The Thermopolium - Communication & Chat / Re: Jubal Comms Thread
« on: October 09, 2016, 10:43:11 PM »
@Mausolos: Yes, it's tough. Where are you from/based (and am I right in assuming you're a classicist/ancient historian?)
Yes, I am indeed an ancient historian as well (I reckon the chances for money would be better if I was not, especially if I would be doing some Modern Gender studies nonsense). I am from Germany, my university actually lies right in the Teutoburg Forest
Btw, one of my friends was in Georgia and found Tiflis very dodgy
He wanted to go and see a funicular in the mountains nearby, which was recommended on Tripadvisor, and after surviving a very weird taxi drive from the airport to the hotel when he arrived he asked the hotel personnel about the funicular. The guy at the reception was like ''Oh, yeah, we used to have that, but it crashed in 2009 and killed 40 people.'' (!)My friend went to Armenia after that and liked Yerevan much better.
34
Rome - Total Realism / Re: Maps for the campaign and startpos (to be continued)
« on: October 09, 2016, 10:36:09 PM »
My photobucket account is already full... can anyone else see the images?
35
Rome - Total Realism / Re: Climates & season movement restrictions
« on: October 09, 2016, 10:17:47 PM »
What exactly should the trait descriptions say then?
36
Rome - Total Realism / Re: Cultures
« on: October 09, 2016, 10:14:35 PM »
Yeah and I'd have Dacians and Illyrians as Barbarians as well. Let's not forget that it effects diplomatic relations and conquest, and Illyrians and Greeks ALWAYS fought against each other all the time.
37
Rome - Total Realism / Maps for the campaign and startpos (to be continued)
« on: October 07, 2016, 10:53:32 PM »
I got my hands on some useful maps from the DNP encyclopaedia of Ancient history, and uploaded those useful for Vae Victis. They should also be helpful either, so I'll share them on the internal forum. Once we determine the finalm startpos and distribution of resources, temples and other special buildings they should come in handy The descriptions are in German, but most things should be understandable.
1. The Aitolian and the Boiotian League in Hellenistic times
2. The Achaian League and its expansion during the 3rd and 2nd century BC
3. The Hellenistic kingdoms in the 3rd century BC
4. Places of education in the Hellenistic Greek world
5. Egypt in Ptolemaic Times
6. The Attalid Kingdom of Pergamon and its growth
7. The Arche of the Bosporan Greeks
8. The Indo- Baktrian Kingdoms
9. The trade network of the Hellenistic Mediterranean
1. The Aitolian and the Boiotian League in Hellenistic times
2. The Achaian League and its expansion during the 3rd and 2nd century BC
3. The Hellenistic kingdoms in the 3rd century BC
4. Places of education in the Hellenistic Greek world
5. Egypt in Ptolemaic Times
6. The Attalid Kingdom of Pergamon and its growth
7. The Arche of the Bosporan Greeks
8. The Indo- Baktrian Kingdoms
9. The trade network of the Hellenistic Mediterranean
38
Rome - Total Realism / Re: Naval Mechanics
« on: October 07, 2016, 10:29:48 PM »
I am posting a little write up by me as an introduction into the significant changes naval warfare underwent during the campaigns of Alexander and the early wars of the diadochoi, which are preceding the start of our main campaign in 270 BC and lay the background for the later 218 BC campaign.
Traditionally, two different types of ships dominated Mediterranean Warfare: The old Greek Penteconter, a galley of about 30ms length, and the Phoenician Bireme, a galley with two rows of oars. Both ships were in use since the Archaic age, but since the faster and military superior Bireme was a Phoenician invention, it was initially restricted to them and their respective overlords, for example the Assyrian kings and later the Achaimenid rulers of Persia. The Bireme came to Greece by the end of the 7th century, but both types of ships were still in use by the time of the Persian invasion of the mainland (490- 478 BC).
An Archaic Penteconter
A Greek Bireme
In 525 BC the tyrant Polykrates of Samos had a new form of warship designed: The Trireme (Greek: Triere) . Equipped with three rows of oars, it was faster and stronger than the Bireme and quickly became the dominant war galley throughout the Mediterranean world. The Phoenicians quickly built up a huge fleet of these ships which were used in the service of the Great King and helped to put down the Ionian Revolt (500- 494 BC) against the Greek cities of Asia Minor. At the decisive battle of Lade off the coast of Miletos (494 BC), 600 Persian triremes overpowered their 350 Greek counterparts.
On the Greek mainland, the poleis lacked both resources and organisation to build up similar fleets until Athens decided to rely on a fleet of triremes rather than on their land army. Initally built as a protection against the raiding parties of Aiginate nobles, it soon emerged as the most formidable naval force in Greece. While biremes and penteconters had mostly served as
A Greek Trireme
swimming bases for slingers or hoplites, the trireme' main weapon was it's ram (embolon). To capitalize on the ramming ability, trireme fleets were usually positioned in a line abreast with each ship on a parallel position to the one next to it, similar to hoplites in a phalanx. While this simple strategy, which did not need a lot of traing and experience, was favoured by most lesser powers until the late Hellenistic age, major powers who possessed a number of fleets devised more complex strategies.
The most popular of these tactical approaches became known as the diekplous, which is explained in the picture below.A Diekplous (''Breakthrough'')This strategy was used by the Persian fleet against the Allied Greek fleet at the battle of Artemision (480 BC) and only luck and a storm saved the Greeks from defeat. Having manned their ships with the poorest citizens and Plataians- of whom many had never seen a ship before!- the Athenians were unable to train the 200 ships of their fleet maneuvres as difficult to learn as the Diekplous in the few weeks they had left until the Achaimenid war machine approached Athens itself.
Despite the better experience and quality of both the crews and their ships, the numerically superior royal fleet was defeated at Salamis in the same year. This victory has to be attributed to the narrow strait between Attica and the island of Salamis, which prevented the Persians from deploying all of their forces at once (furthermore the Egyptian contingent had been sent to the other side of Salamis to block off the supposedly routing Greeks) and made the simple, direct ram tactic of the Greek fleet all the more effective. In the years after Salamis, the victorious Athenians set up the so called Delian League, an alliance of poleis under
Battle of Salamis, Map
the leadership of Athens. Since the other cities had to contribute either their own ships or money and increasingly tended to do the latter, Athens was able to build up a fleet of up to 400 triremes and eventually controlled the League as it's dominating hegemon. With the control of such a mighty instrument of war, Athens became the undisputed queen of the Aegean Sea- not even the Achaimenid navy was able to break their dominance.
Unsurprisingly, the new Athenian fleet also deployed new tactics. Not only did it acquire the diekplous, it's increasingly well trained and professional rowers also learned to apply the periplous in battle. The periplous aimed at breaking up the flanks of the enemy fleet and is again explained in the image above (even though it is wrong to state this tactic The Periplous (''Circumnavigation'')was actually used intentionally and fully at the Battle of Salamis). These two tactics were the main approaches in naval battles apart from the direct ram attack. Since the Greek ships at Salamis had been heavier than their Persian counterparts, the latter tactic was successful on the restricted territory, but usually one of the two other approaches was more effective. Another example for the direct ram tactic is the battle in the harbour of Syracuse during the Athenian Expedition (413 BC).
During the Peloponnesian war Persian money enlarged the Peloponnesian fleet, which then became big enough to successfuly face the Athenians in battle. Having lost their fleet at Syracuse, the formerly superior Athenian triremes came under increasing pressure and were finally defeated at Aigospotamoi (405 BC). Thus Athens and it's allies lost the Peloponnesian War (432- 404 BC), which was quickly followed by the Corinthian War (395- 387 BC).The course of the 4th century saw little invention in naval warfare and with financial restrictions for both Athens and Sparta and a new focus on light land troops (peltastai) sea warfare slightly lost the decisive role it had played during the 5th century.
When Alexander the Great rose to power, he used a fleet of 160 Athenian triremes to protect and support his army on its way to and through western Asia Minor. Shortly after the battle at the river Granikos, Alexander succeeded in capturing Miletos with a combined Sea and Land attack (334 BC) in which the Athenian fleet played a significant role. Despite the success, Alexander decided to send the ships with their crew of 30 000 men home to save money, because it was almost as expensive as his 40 000 men strong land army.
After the death of Alexander (323 BC), who had mainly led a land campaign, naval warfare came to the fore once more. The Successors fought over the Eastern Mediterranean Sea and had to prove their worth as military leaders and legitimate kings. Commanding greater resources than any Greek before them, they also designed new ship types. Even bigger ships with more rows of oars provided a way of building up superior fleets without the need of extensive and complicated training for the rowers and also served the aim to demonstrate monumental royal power.
Alexander had already anticapted an earlier Syracusan idea to put catapults, ballistas and scorpions on warships, which made them able to serve as swimming fortresses who could also be used as offensive weapons in sieges. At the siege of Tyros (332 BC) he first used the tetrere, a ship with 4 rows of oars. Together with the 5-oar pentere, which was invented by the Carthaginians or by the Syracusans shortly afterwards, it began to supersede the traditional trireme. The pentere was approximately
Macedonian/Seleucid Pentere
40ms long and was manned by a crew of about 300 rowers on 3 decks. These ships were used in more simple ways again, direct ramming and especially boarding completed by the use of artillery and javelinmen. Antigonos Monophtalmos, the first successor to crown himself king, took a step further and built nine-rowers and ten-rowers in 314 BC. These monstrous, heavy galleys were equipped with fortified wooden catapult decks and their sheer power could defeat any other ship. That is, until Antigonos contructed eleven-rowers in 301 BC and a single thirteen-rower.
Some of these ships were strengthened with iron armour and reached lengths of about 70ms. Despite these new developments, faster and more manoeuvrable triremes continued to be used by some powers such as democratic Rhodos. It's fleet of 40 triremes outmanoeuvred the Antigonid ships at the siege of Rhodos (305-304 BC) and helped the defenders to hold out against Demetrios Poliorketes' massive army, fleet and siege weapons. Other, alternative types of ships like the light Illyrian liburna were still used by other peoples and powers. Later on, the Romans also built up a similarly big navy like the Hellenistic powers and built the same types of ships- tetrere= quadrireme, pentere= quinquireme.
Roman Liburna
After Augustus had eventually overcome all of his rivals and destroyed all threats to Rome's might, the bigger warships were replaced and the Liburna became the standard ship of the imperial navy. It could patrol coasts, take out pirates and smaller versions could even advance into rivers to control the hinterland. Larger ships were simply not needed anymore, too costly and less effective agains pirates and in these smaller operations. The age of the Hellenistic warship had come to an end.
Traditionally, two different types of ships dominated Mediterranean Warfare: The old Greek Penteconter, a galley of about 30ms length, and the Phoenician Bireme, a galley with two rows of oars. Both ships were in use since the Archaic age, but since the faster and military superior Bireme was a Phoenician invention, it was initially restricted to them and their respective overlords, for example the Assyrian kings and later the Achaimenid rulers of Persia. The Bireme came to Greece by the end of the 7th century, but both types of ships were still in use by the time of the Persian invasion of the mainland (490- 478 BC).
An Archaic Penteconter
A Greek Bireme
In 525 BC the tyrant Polykrates of Samos had a new form of warship designed: The Trireme (Greek: Triere) . Equipped with three rows of oars, it was faster and stronger than the Bireme and quickly became the dominant war galley throughout the Mediterranean world. The Phoenicians quickly built up a huge fleet of these ships which were used in the service of the Great King and helped to put down the Ionian Revolt (500- 494 BC) against the Greek cities of Asia Minor. At the decisive battle of Lade off the coast of Miletos (494 BC), 600 Persian triremes overpowered their 350 Greek counterparts.
On the Greek mainland, the poleis lacked both resources and organisation to build up similar fleets until Athens decided to rely on a fleet of triremes rather than on their land army. Initally built as a protection against the raiding parties of Aiginate nobles, it soon emerged as the most formidable naval force in Greece. While biremes and penteconters had mostly served as
A Greek Trireme
swimming bases for slingers or hoplites, the trireme' main weapon was it's ram (embolon). To capitalize on the ramming ability, trireme fleets were usually positioned in a line abreast with each ship on a parallel position to the one next to it, similar to hoplites in a phalanx. While this simple strategy, which did not need a lot of traing and experience, was favoured by most lesser powers until the late Hellenistic age, major powers who possessed a number of fleets devised more complex strategies.
The most popular of these tactical approaches became known as the diekplous, which is explained in the picture below.A Diekplous (''Breakthrough'')This strategy was used by the Persian fleet against the Allied Greek fleet at the battle of Artemision (480 BC) and only luck and a storm saved the Greeks from defeat. Having manned their ships with the poorest citizens and Plataians- of whom many had never seen a ship before!- the Athenians were unable to train the 200 ships of their fleet maneuvres as difficult to learn as the Diekplous in the few weeks they had left until the Achaimenid war machine approached Athens itself.
Despite the better experience and quality of both the crews and their ships, the numerically superior royal fleet was defeated at Salamis in the same year. This victory has to be attributed to the narrow strait between Attica and the island of Salamis, which prevented the Persians from deploying all of their forces at once (furthermore the Egyptian contingent had been sent to the other side of Salamis to block off the supposedly routing Greeks) and made the simple, direct ram tactic of the Greek fleet all the more effective. In the years after Salamis, the victorious Athenians set up the so called Delian League, an alliance of poleis under
Battle of Salamis, Map
the leadership of Athens. Since the other cities had to contribute either their own ships or money and increasingly tended to do the latter, Athens was able to build up a fleet of up to 400 triremes and eventually controlled the League as it's dominating hegemon. With the control of such a mighty instrument of war, Athens became the undisputed queen of the Aegean Sea- not even the Achaimenid navy was able to break their dominance.
Unsurprisingly, the new Athenian fleet also deployed new tactics. Not only did it acquire the diekplous, it's increasingly well trained and professional rowers also learned to apply the periplous in battle. The periplous aimed at breaking up the flanks of the enemy fleet and is again explained in the image above (even though it is wrong to state this tactic The Periplous (''Circumnavigation'')was actually used intentionally and fully at the Battle of Salamis). These two tactics were the main approaches in naval battles apart from the direct ram attack. Since the Greek ships at Salamis had been heavier than their Persian counterparts, the latter tactic was successful on the restricted territory, but usually one of the two other approaches was more effective. Another example for the direct ram tactic is the battle in the harbour of Syracuse during the Athenian Expedition (413 BC).
During the Peloponnesian war Persian money enlarged the Peloponnesian fleet, which then became big enough to successfuly face the Athenians in battle. Having lost their fleet at Syracuse, the formerly superior Athenian triremes came under increasing pressure and were finally defeated at Aigospotamoi (405 BC). Thus Athens and it's allies lost the Peloponnesian War (432- 404 BC), which was quickly followed by the Corinthian War (395- 387 BC).The course of the 4th century saw little invention in naval warfare and with financial restrictions for both Athens and Sparta and a new focus on light land troops (peltastai) sea warfare slightly lost the decisive role it had played during the 5th century.
When Alexander the Great rose to power, he used a fleet of 160 Athenian triremes to protect and support his army on its way to and through western Asia Minor. Shortly after the battle at the river Granikos, Alexander succeeded in capturing Miletos with a combined Sea and Land attack (334 BC) in which the Athenian fleet played a significant role. Despite the success, Alexander decided to send the ships with their crew of 30 000 men home to save money, because it was almost as expensive as his 40 000 men strong land army.
After the death of Alexander (323 BC), who had mainly led a land campaign, naval warfare came to the fore once more. The Successors fought over the Eastern Mediterranean Sea and had to prove their worth as military leaders and legitimate kings. Commanding greater resources than any Greek before them, they also designed new ship types. Even bigger ships with more rows of oars provided a way of building up superior fleets without the need of extensive and complicated training for the rowers and also served the aim to demonstrate monumental royal power.
Alexander had already anticapted an earlier Syracusan idea to put catapults, ballistas and scorpions on warships, which made them able to serve as swimming fortresses who could also be used as offensive weapons in sieges. At the siege of Tyros (332 BC) he first used the tetrere, a ship with 4 rows of oars. Together with the 5-oar pentere, which was invented by the Carthaginians or by the Syracusans shortly afterwards, it began to supersede the traditional trireme. The pentere was approximately
Macedonian/Seleucid Pentere
40ms long and was manned by a crew of about 300 rowers on 3 decks. These ships were used in more simple ways again, direct ramming and especially boarding completed by the use of artillery and javelinmen. Antigonos Monophtalmos, the first successor to crown himself king, took a step further and built nine-rowers and ten-rowers in 314 BC. These monstrous, heavy galleys were equipped with fortified wooden catapult decks and their sheer power could defeat any other ship. That is, until Antigonos contructed eleven-rowers in 301 BC and a single thirteen-rower.
Some of these ships were strengthened with iron armour and reached lengths of about 70ms. Despite these new developments, faster and more manoeuvrable triremes continued to be used by some powers such as democratic Rhodos. It's fleet of 40 triremes outmanoeuvred the Antigonid ships at the siege of Rhodos (305-304 BC) and helped the defenders to hold out against Demetrios Poliorketes' massive army, fleet and siege weapons. Other, alternative types of ships like the light Illyrian liburna were still used by other peoples and powers. Later on, the Romans also built up a similarly big navy like the Hellenistic powers and built the same types of ships- tetrere= quadrireme, pentere= quinquireme.
Roman Liburna
After Augustus had eventually overcome all of his rivals and destroyed all threats to Rome's might, the bigger warships were replaced and the Liburna became the standard ship of the imperial navy. It could patrol coasts, take out pirates and smaller versions could even advance into rivers to control the hinterland. Larger ships were simply not needed anymore, too costly and less effective agains pirates and in these smaller operations. The age of the Hellenistic warship had come to an end.
39
The Thermopolium - Communication & Chat / Re: Jubal Comms Thread
« on: October 05, 2016, 11:49:39 PM »ThanksI need to start working on my doctoral project proposal soon; I've got a plan for it, but it's very hard to get any funding for academic research at the moment.
Oh yeah... I am working on my PhD, but I get no money for it, so I am not sure if I will even be able to finish it. I've already applied for scholarships from four different organisations, but to no avail. There is two more I could get one from, so I hope that will work. If not, there don't even seem to be too many alternatives really. PhD posts seem to be rare, I only found two- one in Cologne, but I am not sure if my topic would fit the theoretical frame, and one in Galway, where I am not sure if any of the supervisors would fit. So even if I wanted to move, it's difficult. And I really find it a great shame, when people talk about ''promoting our talented youth'' all the time, but then there's so little money for the humanities...
So, just saying, I understand your situation
Take your time and see if you can find the funding, and if not, be aware that you could end up needing to work in a side job, which will also extend the length of the PhD (time wise).@Vrosivs
We have a Serbian visiting professor at our university since last year, who is a nice chap, but he's working on topics about Classic Athens rather than Roman Serbia
40
Rome - Total Realism / Re: RTR at ExiliCon?
« on: October 04, 2016, 12:16:53 AM »
Ah, I could have come and done something if I knew about this! Anyway, maybe next year then and we can get some RTR people there to promote the mod when it is an a more advanced stage
41
Rome - Total Realism / Re: Ancient Colchis
« on: September 28, 2016, 06:36:39 PM »
The greek colonisation of the black sea area by Gocha R. Tsetskhladze
I got this book now, but unfortunately it is completely useless for us. Its articles only focus on the foundation of the black sea areas and the Archaic period, and even within that time frame Colchis only plays a very minor role. Most authors spend a big part of their articles complaining about the scarcity of sources and don't really find much new stuff...
42
Rome - Total Realism / Re: A New Map?
« on: September 26, 2016, 08:03:57 PM »
It's great to have you on board, Muizer Good luck with your task! If you need any further advice or information regarding the historical accuracy, feel free to ask me and I'll try to help you as far as I can.
Good luck with your task! If you need any further advice or information regarding the historical accuracy, feel free to ask me and I'll try to help you as far as I can.
43
Rome - Total Realism / Re: Minor Cities Project
« on: September 26, 2016, 12:27:25 AM »
The idea with trade resources sounds very reasonable. Maybe we should go that way and test it out with just Italy first?
44
Rome - Total Realism / Re: Making mountains of molehills
« on: September 26, 2016, 12:10:34 AM »
The Alps look much better now!
45
Rome - Total Realism / Re: Ancient Colchis
« on: August 08, 2016, 02:37:19 PM »
Do you have these books then or do you need them? My uni library has that book by Tsetskhladze (and many more texts by him).