Dark Versus Light: Morals, Nature, Sci-Fi And Fantasy

[Clockwork]

I just really didn't get why you (or any other number of people, 'cause gods know you're not alone) could get so riled up over a scene like that...

Cringing is like a really low-key reaction, 'so riled up' is way out of scope. I'm slightly put out over it. This sort of thing makes me think you have an agenda because you're projecting and implying emotion I'm not conveying. If I'd said 'This scene pisses me off so much' and not 'this scene is cringeworthy' then you'd be right to say I was riled.

having his shirt off is fine, I am all for hot guys with their shirts off. Ren doesn't do it for me at all though, Finn or Poe, sure.

I'm not sure why, because you apparently meant it differently, but that seemed to me like you didn't like Ren, but I see now that I have obviously misinterpreted that...

Uh yeah, just because I don't think someone's attractive has no bearing on whether I like the person. I am perfectly happy to enjoy the company of ugliness or find beautiful, vapid, vanity wanting.

Really, can't you? Is that from personal experience, because I'm pretty sure that supposedly it's impossible to lift cars without training either, and there's still mothers who manage quite well without any when their kids are in danger, just because the adrenaline kicks in...

Yeah exactly, lifting a car isn't a fine tuned skill - it's a raw application of strength; it's not like anyone has ever adrenaline-fuelled lockpicked without training in it. As well as that: Leia has no kids in danger to spike that motherly instinct.

I was merely suggesting that story telling is a lot like human history at some points... We occasionally chose to ignore things that happened or view them in a bit of a distorted light, just because it does not support our argument to look at the whole picture... The view point gets more objective the further away the historical period, but especially where wars are concerned, you often learn that the victors were "liberators" and that their arrival was "celebrated", when in reality, they were raping and pillaging everywhere they went to the effct that entire towns and villages packed up and fled, when they heard of their nearing approach...

That is a thing that exists but this isn't that. There isn't an nonobjective viewpoint because there isn't a viewpoint; we aren't shown purely from one characters perspective, we're given actions from all sides, the universe judges characters and we the audience are witnesses to events as they unfold not reviewing a historical account. This is shown by the types of shot made in the film; none are set up to deceive or subvert ways of thinking. The introduction present at the start of all core movies is establishing the information needed to be present in the moment and after that the pace and tone is set and the movie is a-go.

I mean in Rogue One it is totally acceptable for Cassian to shoot someone who gave him information, just so that guy can't tell on him, because he is the good guy, his morals are okay, but "good people sometimes have to make questionable choices, because if they don't, then the bad guys win"...

I don't remember anyone said it was 'okay because he's a good guy' the character was applauded for having something of an edge to him verses the plethora of vanilla characters in Star Wars. That's not the same as people saying his choices were morally right, just that they were interesting. I get the feeling we're crossing wires on when people like a character it doesn't mean that they have to also approve of their actions.

Exactly, they have been "lost", they have "failed"... That kind of terminology can be imprisoning as well, I have found...

Explicitly it says that the statues are to commemorate the lost, that the order failed, not the individuals. Terminology is only imprisoning within ones own mind.

See, now I am confused, because equal to the Sith and Jedi Code, there is a Grey Jedi Code, which centers around the terms "force" and "balance", so I'm not entirely sure how this is "just a fan appelation", because sure, the wish that Rey becomes a Grey Jedi, is a relatively new thing, but the Code is way older than that and I found it way before episode 7 aired...

This is from wookieepedia on the grey jedi;
" The concept of Jedi who have left the Order but not turned Sith or become Dark has been around at least since Episode 1 (Qui-Gon Jinn) and solidified with Knights the Old Republic (Jolee Bindo). However, an official organization has never been officially created, canon being content to portray Gray Jedi as rogues or exiles. This is one vision of an organized group of Gray Jedi with ambitions of actively pursuing further understanding of the Force beyond the scope of the Jedi Order. This article has multiple contributors who have each helped create this vision by either adding characters and storylines to give the Gray Order a place in the Universe or by developing the details of the Gray Order itself. Suggestions and new contributors are welcome, please begin a Discussion or comment below if you wish to suggest new content."

and on the grey jedi code;


"This page was created over a decade ago (in the SW Fanon site's heyday) and has undergone a lot of revision and discussion in that time. The current version is a relatively recent reworking, intended to be less of one individual's imagining and more relatable to the official lore. A lot of thought has been put into all of these revisions and discussion in the comments section is always taken into consideration."

Yeah, grey jedi order and grey jedi code are non-canon fan appelations. Although there is a group which calls themselves 'grey jedi order'; they're not the only grey jedi who have formed a group with a hierarchy similar to the jedi and each have their own raison d'etre and in each era the definition of what jedi do changes anyway, for a long time Star Wars canon hasn't had much set in stone and retcons abound.


Yeah looking into it The Clone Wars go into Dooku more and he's definitely a sith, you're totally right and I was totally wrong. I've not seen that, was just going by the movies. Though I still think there's argument to be made that he's a different type of sith to the cadre of sith lords before him.

You didn't offend me, I was just left feeling a little curious at something. I can't pinpoint it, just got a vibe and probably got a little defensive as a result.

[Caradìlis]

Cringing is like a really low-key reaction, 'so riled up' is way out of scope.

I do realise that you said cringing, "riled up" was derived from a summary of your reaction and the ones I have seen/heard... You have to admit, there are people out there who are making an enormous drama out of scenes that bothered them in The Last Jedi... So, I apologise, I might not have been reacting solely to your own comments...

Sure, Leia has no kids in danger (unless you count Ben, who let's be honest, she's probably still hoping to somehow pull back), but have you seen how that woman treats everyone in the Resistance, how they treat her? The Resistance is her thing, she founded it, she leads it and from what I know of that woman, she is going to protect it with everything she has, and if that means doing previously unseen Force manipulation, then that is exactly what General Leia Organa would do.

I get the feeling we're crossing wires on when people like a character it doesn't mean that they have to also approve of their actions.

Oh, I do understand that, I just think that if the good guys start throwing around a "if we don't fight dirty, we can't win" philosophy, they don't deserve to call themselves "the good guys".

On that note, I would conclude that a consensus seems highly unlikely. You were not a fan of recent movie and strongly believe in the evil nature of the Sith, and I loved The Last Jedi and will forever question the righteousness of the Jedi-Order. Therefore in the name of peace, sanity and all that is still good in this messed up world: I concede this argument.

[Clockwork]

Yeah people make a fuss over anything. I'm not even one of the ones that actually dislikes the film though, I just see a lot of flaws in it.

PS. Episode 8 was so off key. I think it was a good film, had some good Star Wars EU stuff in it

I mean I think this was mainly a discussion but hey; thanks for indulging me in some star wars