Author Topic: In the News  (Read 81951 times)

Clockwork

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Re: In the News
« Reply #345 on: January 11, 2015, 11:00:47 PM »
Erm... No, quite clearly they're not as bad, they're defending their home/country/friends. Just doing it wrong but with the right intentions. Also 'If there are this many bad apples the orchard is full of armadillo' paraphrasing someone or other, but yeah I do think there is something wrong within Islamic community whether its the faith or the people I don't know. I'm not blaming them for it, I'm saying its systemic.

Banning public worship lessens the time these people spend with each other in such large groups.
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Jubal

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Re: In the News
« Reply #346 on: January 11, 2015, 11:46:13 PM »
The idea of collective guilt for crimes, and the idea that the Muslim community is a monolith, are both clearly horsedung. How the hell do you expect the muslims I know here in Cambridge, or indeed people like the muslim cop who was shot dead by the terrorists, to have an influence on radical extremist cells that are just as alien to their lives as to yours? By what medium do you envisage that happening?

Also, I call further horsedung on the idea that we win by mere survival. I'd rather live in a society where I have a higher chance of death from terrorism (which would still be infinitesimal of course) but can communicate with others without someone logging all my communication. The reason I oppose, hate, and detest radical hyper-extreme Islam is the same reason I oppose, hate and detest hard right politics, both are about reducing people's freedom and agency and both are feeding off one another right now.

Also re stats: you said it was "almost like there are more attacks each year" - and I'm not sure there are, or that I do feel like that, so I'd be interested to see the stats.
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Pentagathus

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Re: In the News
« Reply #347 on: January 12, 2015, 11:04:09 AM »
I'm not blaming them for it, I'm saying its systemic.
Yes, you are. Stop trying to pretend your views here are based on anything other than bigotry and cowardice, its utterly pathetic.

Clockwork

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Re: In the News
« Reply #348 on: January 12, 2015, 11:26:24 AM »
@Jub Collective guilt/debt I'm on the fence about, though I think that stems from my strong familial ties (If one of my family members portugals up, I'm usually the one paying for it/sorting it out, which I'm A-Ok with btw as long as they learn some sort of lesson from it).
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it's more like Charlie loses, killers lose, and we lose.
I did not say we win, in fact I said we lose but also they lose as well. I was arguing against you saying that they win if we're simply under excessive govt surveillance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain#2010-present

This blatantly shows Islamic attacks successful, failed and thwarted from 2010 onward have exploded (pun intended) despite that us non-believers have been the enemy of Islam since Islam existed.

@penty: Glad you know exactly where my thoughts come from, for a moment there I was thinking only I had access to that knowledge! Do you know what the word bigot means? It's a person that it intolerant towards a different view. This would include yourself. The word is near meaningless when we're talking about views that naturally oppose, as each is likely bigoted towards the other. I get my views from the same place you do, what I believe is right. As much as you do I have a right to believe whatever the portugal I want. Cowardice? Unlike you however I live in a place where the issues we talk about here are actually in effect. There is Muslim violence, there is anti-muslim violence. Have you ever seen someone get stabbed literally feet away from you? Have you been to a place where being white is such a detriment that you're only one of about twenty out of two hundred? I'm thinking no. I portugaling love Northants it suits me perfectly, I love the grime but damn it can get get rough.
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Jubal

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Re: In the News
« Reply #349 on: January 12, 2015, 01:19:52 PM »
One of your family, maybe, but your co-religionists? If I stabbed a Christian because I thought their faith was wrong, should you be apologising for it and making amends? That is literally the question you are posing here.

The wiki shows nothing of the sort. This is a handy table of UK Islamic terrorism, constructed from the Wiki article you listed. Please observe that every number in the 10-14 category is lower than every equivalent number in the category above.

YearsSuccessful attacksKnown prevented attacksDeath toll
2000-04010
2005-093556
2010-14121

Obviously the rate is still higher than it was before Islamic terrorism became a major thing in the first place - it's a recent phenomenon - but there hasn't been any sort of noticeable continued upsurge, at least in the UK.
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Pentagathus

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Re: In the News
« Reply #350 on: January 12, 2015, 04:07:32 PM »
@penty: Glad you know exactly where my thoughts come from, for a moment there I was thinking only I had access to that knowledge! Do you know what the word bigot means? It's a person that it intolerant towards a different view. This would include yourself. The word is near meaningless when we're talking about views that naturally oppose, as each is likely bigoted towards the other. I get my views from the same place you do, what I believe is right. As much as you do I have a right to believe whatever the portugal I want. Cowardice? Unlike you however I live in a place where the issues we talk about here are actually in effect. There is Muslim violence, there is anti-muslim violence. Have you ever seen someone get stabbed literally feet away from you? Have you been to a place where being white is such a detriment that you're only one of about twenty out of two hundred? I'm thinking no. I portugaling love Northants it suits me perfectly, I love the grime but damn it can get get rough.
Yeah I know what bigot means, I'd say it doesn't apply to me as I'm not intolerant of other views. I find yours to be abhorrent but I wouldn't try to force you to change them. I don't argue against your views out of spite or any desire to be right, I do it because I very firmly believe that hatred does not lead to happiness, and therefore your life would be improved by letting go of it.
As to cowardice, I wasn't actually claiming to be better than you on that front, no I don't often have to deal with fear in the face of my beliefs but I wouldn't want to live with myself if I couldn't take pride in who I am, and I honestly wouldn't be able to do that if I let fear erode my values.
As to why I find your views cowardly its because you claim to place value on the lives of innocent muslims whilst still advocating the use of indiscriminate force against large muslim populations due to your own fear. Am I wrong about this?

Clockwork

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Re: In the News
« Reply #351 on: January 12, 2015, 06:05:38 PM »
That's in no way the question I'm posing here for one. If you stabbed a Christian because you thought their faith was wrong then a Christian might get it into his/her head that stabbing an atheist is just retribution. So I take it you're also against giving reparations to blacks for injury and insult suffered by their forefathers at the hands of whitey ancestors? Sometimes (opinion, for some reason this seems to need to be made clear) collectives do need to pay (money, not evil villain style pay) for wrongs that they personally didn't commit. I didn't personally make anyone homeless but I pay taxes which house them and give them food credits which I'm also (relatively) happy to do.

Also just as a general point that everyone seems to be ignoring: Nowhere here by the by have I said that I support any of the attacks. I'm giving a reason for people to think the way these people are. Stop with your demonising, actually read what I'm saying before casting your judgments.

Basically you hit the nail on the head Jub, Islamic terrorism here has increased (from 0) since Islamist terror began. It's an obvious point but one that I hope isn't lost, they've expanded their targets to us, which means that as long as there are members of these organisations still alive then we have someone who considers us enemy. It's off topic but there are tons of places where you can get info on Islamic terrorism globally, and it's huge, and growing.  Here in the UK we're doing roughly the same the statistics are so small that they're nearly irrelevant. Yeah there have been more attacks 2005-2009 than 2010-2014 buuuuut the difference is tiny. Its pretty irrelevant. Taking the world as a whole is relevant, and perhaps a comparison of the UK with other countries but this is sort of a global issue, not just limited to what happens here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents#1970.E2.80.93present Here is a link to global terrorism. Boko Haram, Taliban, al-Quaeda, al-Nusra, ISIL come up time and again. In comparison there is very little non-Islamic terrorism. Granted this is at least partially because the west chooses who is the terrorist and who is the freedom fighter but I digress. I've not been through all of it by any means.

@Penty: I'm also not intolerant of other views, I fully accept that people can believe in a cause so thoroughly that they're prepared to die for it, I know that people seek vengeance on others for no reason than they read about something that happened. I do hate Muslims this is true, surely the cowardly thing would be to deny it? Say: Oh no I only hate the evil ones, it's not true for me. I'm not patronising you by pretending otherwise. I also try as best I can to look at it from multiple angles, each of which are obviously tainted by my biases but believe it or not, I do try. Yes you're wrong, I don't value 'innocent' Muslim lives as much as other peoples (Innocent is also a weird word to use. If you mean innocent of causing violence, well I'm innocent but then my views are far from it, see what I mean. Because one can't know the thoughts of another it's impossible to tell who is innocent and who is not) and in this thread I'm not advocating anything. Another thing is that we have very different values and I'd also hate to lose mine, I've done that once already but that's a completely separate thing which I don't want to get into particularly. You're mixing things I've said in different threads. Which is bad because I'm the devils advocate, if I wasn't here there would be no sides it'd be a circle jerk of self congratulation on how morally superior you all obviously are.
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Son of the King

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Re: In the News
« Reply #352 on: January 12, 2015, 06:27:56 PM »
That's in no way the question I'm posing here for one. If you stabbed a Christian because you thought their faith was wrong then a Christian might get it into his/her head that stabbing an atheist is just retribution.

They would be wrong. Stabbing the atheist in question would be retribution.

Sometimes (opinion, for some reason this seems to need to be made clear) collectives do need to pay (money, not evil villain style pay) for wrongs that they personally didn't commit. I didn't personally make anyone homeless but I pay taxes which house them and give them food credits which I'm also (relatively) happy to do.

So make ISIS pay, make al-Qaeda pay, make the Taliban pay, but don't make ordinary people pay. Terrorist attacks are supported or carried out by terrorist groups on the whole, not by an entire religion. Homeless people are part of society, so it is right that society should pay taxes to house them.

Basically you hit the nail on the head Jub, Islamic terrorism here has increased (from 0) since Islamist terror began.

Non-Islamic terrorism has also increased since non-Islamic terrorism began. Everything that begins increases since it didn't exist, by definition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents#1970.E2.80.93present Here is a link to global terrorism. Boko Haram, Taliban, al-Quaeda, al-Nusra, ISIL come up time and again. In comparison there is very little non-Islamic terrorism. Granted this is at least partially because the west chooses who is the terrorist and who is the freedom fighter but I digress. I've not been through all of it by any means.

Indeed it is. It is also probably because these militant groups are primarily based in more unstable and/or less well-off parts of the world, which also happen to be places where Islam is a dominant faith (note that there are also plenty of places with many Muslims which are not unstable or poor).

I do hate Muslims this is true

If someone close to you converted to Islam, would you then hate them?

Also, what should happen to the (presumably Muslim) family of the Muslim police officer? Are they collectively responsible for that murder just because they are of the same faith as his killers? Is he responsible for his own death, because his killers shared his faith?

Clockwork

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Re: In the News
« Reply #353 on: January 12, 2015, 07:08:19 PM »
Why does everyone ignore what I'm saying.

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a Christian might get it into his/her head that stabbing an atheist is just retribution.

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I'm giving a reason for people to think the way these people are.

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they're defending their home/country/friends. Just doing it wrong but with the right intentions.

I'm not talking about myself. I've condemned the retaliation attacks.

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They would be wrong. Stabbing the atheist in question would be retribution.

Not arguing that. Yes they would be wrong. See above quote from earlier.

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So make ISIS pay, make al-Qaeda pay, make the Taliban pay, but don't make ordinary people pay. Terrorist attacks are supported or carried out by terrorist groups on the whole

Again, yes this is the right thing to do. What we're (or maybe it's just me) looking at is what the reason is that people do the wrong thing even though they think its right at the time.

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Non-Islamic terrorism has also increased since non-Islamic terrorism began. Everything that begins increases since it didn't exist, by definition.

Yes, but that's even more general that what I'm saying. The point I made was that we're being targeted.

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Indeed it is. It is also probably because these militant groups are primarily based in more unstable and/or less well-off parts of the world, which also happen to be places where Islam is a dominant faith (note that there are also plenty of places with many Muslims which are not unstable or poor).

So being poor is the excuse for being a terrorist? Sorry I don't buy that. There are plenty of catholic parts of Africa which are equally if not more impoverished who aren't terrorising.

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If someone close to you converted to Islam, would you then hate them?

Also, what should happen to the (presumably Muslim) family of the Muslim police officer? Are they collectively responsible for that murder just because they are of the same faith as his killers? Is he responsible for his own death, because his killers shared his faith?

Yep, probably.

Again see above. I, myself, me, Rob, do not hold anyone to blame but the people that caused the violence and, sort of in a certain way but can't be arsed to detail it here, faith itself for it. I don't think every other Muslim is to blame. This wasn't even about what I think at all until people decided to make it about what I think.
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Pentagathus

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Re: In the News
« Reply #354 on: January 12, 2015, 10:21:28 PM »
Stop with your demonising, actually read what I'm saying before casting your judgments.
Perhaps you should stop repeatedly posting inflammatory things about Muslims without clear enough explanation so you don't then have to backtrack later on. Because frankly I find it very hard to believe you.

@Penty: I'm also not intolerant of other views, I fully accept that people can believe in a cause so thoroughly that they're prepared to die for it, I know that people seek vengeance on others for no reason than they read about something that happened. I do hate Muslims this is true, surely the cowardly thing would be to deny it? Say: Oh no I only hate the evil ones, it's not true for me. I'm not patronising you by pretending otherwise. I also try as best I can to look at it from multiple angles, each of which are obviously tainted by my biases but believe it or not, I do try. Yes you're wrong, I don't value 'innocent' Muslim lives as much as other peoples (Innocent is also a weird word to use. If you mean innocent of causing violence, well I'm innocent but then my views are far from it, see what I mean. Because one can't know the thoughts of another it's impossible to tell who is innocent and who is not) and in this thread I'm not advocating anything. Another thing is that we have very different values and I'd also hate to lose mine, I've done that once already but that's a completely separate thing which I don't want to get into particularly. You're mixing things I've said in different threads. Which is bad because I'm the devils advocate, if I wasn't here there would be no sides it'd be a circle jerk of self congratulation on how morally superior you all obviously are.
How are you not intolerant? You hate a group of people for identifying themselves with a specific but very broad religion (not even a specific set of values) and want France (and other western countries?) to ban all forms of public prayer. That sounds very much like intolerance to me without even mentioning the other views you've espoused about Islam in other threads.
So why do you not place much value on the life of an innocent Muslim? (for simplicity lets say innocence of advocating hatred/violence.)
And why do you hold on to your hate of Muslims? Do you actually think it betters your life? I've never seen hatred cause anything but misery and if you're knowingly letting fear get in the way of your own happiness then yeah I'd certainly class that as cowardice.

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Re: In the News
« Reply #355 on: January 13, 2015, 08:31:02 AM »
Right so just stop holding views is what your saying. And I haven't backtracked. I've literally just quoted what I said earlier which you've refused to acknowledge clearly states that I've not been talking about myself until it was forced on me.

I'm not intolerant in the same way you aren't, anyone can have their own views. Yeah I hate a group but I'm not saying they don't have a right to exist. I'm hoping France bans all form of public worship because it'd be interesting to see if that helps or hinders. They've already banned faith schools and religious dress, I don't think its unimaginable for them to go this extra step. Why do I not place as much value on innocent Muslim life: because they're the most likely demographic to be terrorist dickbags. Even if they don't advocate, they can still be in favour of it, just not say anything. I've been to rallys in Leicester. I've seen how they treat their women, even at damn college. I've seen the gangs of them and I've seen the worst that humanity has to offer within that demographic. Do I think my hatred betters my life? I think it means I know where I stand, so no, but it doesn't worsen it. Does it cause me misery, no, not at all because I do believe that its justified. My happiness/misery is not defined by my politics at all. In fact I keep politics all to one side completely when dealing with people irl because obviously I know that I hold rather extreme views.
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Pentagathus

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Re: In the News
« Reply #356 on: January 13, 2015, 01:32:05 PM »
No I'm not saying you should stop holding views, to be specific I was suggesting that if you post something that could quite easily be interpreted as advocating violence against Muslims then you might want to make it clear in that same post that you aren't doing that. Since you hold extreme views on Muslims its very easy to misinterpret your point.
So you decide to hate Muslims for the sake of simplicity yet still try to be avoid bias when forming views about the treatment of Muslims/Islam? That seems very counterproductive to me, surely it would be easier to approach the subject with an open mind in the first place. Do you also not worry that your hatred prevents you from befriending potentially awesome people? I've known some Muslims to be very good people, I've also known some to be complete alpacas. But then I could say the same for any demographic, even if it is true that someone from this group is more likely to be unpleasant doesn't mean its not worth treating them without prejudice. I find that if you approach anyone with goodwill they usually respond in kind.
I could have chosen to judge, dislike and avoid you for a lot of the views in this area for the sake of simplicity, instead this argument has come about and I'm pretty sure at the end of it (because god I hope we're approaching the end of it) I'll still like and respect you.

In fact I keep politics all to one side completely when dealing with people irl because obviously I know that I hold rather extreme views.
Is this because you're ashamed of your views, fearful of people's reactions or just that you want to avoid a great deal of fairly pointless argument? If its the latter (and I'm guessing it is) then I apologise for accusing you of cowardice. And I unreservedly apologise for not elaborating on why I was making a fairly personal attack in the first instance.

As to the effect banning public prayer would have, I suspect it would have a very negative one, both on Muslim and other religious populations. Although I dislike the vast majority of religions I'm well aware that many people find comfort and happiness from organised religion, for many people its their main source of quality social interaction as well. I'm pretty confident that banning public prayer groups would lead to an increase in depression among such people and likely cause or exacerbate other mental illnesses, which is likely to increase extreme and potentially violent behaviour in all groups afflicted. And when applied specifically to Islam its going to mean more Muslims turning towards the internet for their theological fix, which is a lot harder to keep tabs on (pun intended) than public prayer groups.

Clockwork

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Re: In the News
« Reply #357 on: January 13, 2015, 02:10:59 PM »
Very good, thanks Penty. This is a new-ish thing for me, I guess it was only a year ago perhaps I was actually very much open to all of what you're saying, treating others without preconceptions. I have known awesome Muslims as it happens as well. Guy called Muzahir, Muz for short was one of the funniest people I've known and I do find it a bit of a shame that my views have been so changed due to all the bs I've seen but I can't get over that it's this one demographic that's time and time again causing so much trouble.

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Is this because you're ashamed of your views, fearful of people's reactions or just that you want to avoid a great deal of fairly pointless argument?

Sort of, I (you'll laugh at this) don't want to offend people, not afraid to but I'd rather not have a confrontation. I don't mind it over the internet because it's so much less personal. Thanks though.

On the banning, I don't know. I know it could have a hugely negative one for the reasons you said and others, but on the other hand it could also erode hardline views. It would be an interesting social experiment regardless :)
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TTG4

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Re: In the News
« Reply #358 on: January 13, 2015, 10:40:43 PM »
Onto another topic

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30794256

I'm so glad this has happened, it was a portugaling stupid idea to place a blanket ban in the first place. But now we can utilise our new knowledge and skills to improve the agricultural system. In my view, anything that reduces the need for increased pesticide, herbicide, fertiliser etc. usage can only be a good thing.

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Re: In the News
« Reply #359 on: January 14, 2015, 07:35:19 AM »
Re: the Charlie Hebdo attacks, the entire point of attacks like this is to elicit the exact kind of thinking that Colossus is showing, in hating Muslims for the actions of a few you help the cause of the extremists. The point isn't to kill people but to convert moderates to their side, by having the people under attack use the moderates as scapegoats and oppress them, just how Colossus advocated for France to do. The only way to fight this is or tolerance, not prejudice.

As for GM crops, yes a full ban was stupid. The planet is getting more and more populated leaving less arable land, so anything that increases yields is obviously a benefit.
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