Margaret Thatcher Dies

[Jubal]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22067155

Former Prime Minister Baroness Thatcher has died "peacefully" at the age of 87 after suffering a stroke, her family has announced.

Successor David Cameron called her a "great Briton" and the Queen spoke of her sadness at the death.

Lady Thatcher was Conservative prime minister from 1979 to 1990. She was the first woman to hold the role.

She will not have a state funeral but will be accorded the same status as Princess Diana and the Queen Mother.

The union jack above Number 10 has been lowered to half-mast.

Mr Cameron, who is in Madrid for meetings, has cancelled planned talks in Paris with French President Francois Hollande and will return to the UK later on Monday.

Thoughts on this? She is probably the most divisive British prime minister of the last century, and the amount of hate on some areas is incredible. Other people are genuinely very sad, it's just an instantly polarising moment somehow.


As for myself, my FB status says it as best I can...

There are many people in this world who we disagree with, and there are many people in this world who nevertheless cannot be ignored and if nothing else must be looked at soberly. Their mark on our nations and our character cannot be erased and their story cannot be unwritten. One such mark has now ended, the pen has left the paper, and it is time to leave it be so that we can look at where we are, where the beliefs, weaknesses, failures and strengths of Margaret Thatcher took us, and - hopefully - so we can write a better story next time.

[Pentagathus]

Ding Dong.

[Clockwork]

it's just an instantly polarising moment somehow.

I disagree...I'm completely ambivalant towards this.

[Jubal]

Well yes, some people are, but the number of people who are practically digging trenches and declaring civil war over it is a bit excessive. 

[Scarlet]

I can't say I'm heartbroken over this.. But at the same time I'm not overjoyed. At least they're not giving her a state funeral.

Also, Cameron isn't really helping his cause in my opinion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22068771

''She didn't just lead our country, she saved our country,'' oh dear.

[Othko97]

I think it would be interesting to check the reactions by location, as I imagine typically reactions up in the North will be more celebratory whereas those from the South will be more mournful. As a northerner, I have to say that the overall reaction - at least what I have seen - is overall happy on her death. I believe I have only spoken to one person who thought she was a good thing for the country, whereas the rest are quite adamant that she was one of the worst things that ever happened to the UK. This may also be due to the fact that most people my age are, shall we say, uninterested in politics, and are mainly voicing the views of their parents. It may also be due to the fact that my friends are mostly lefties, or at least labour supporters. That said, from what I have heard of people's parents reactions, there seems to be a sense of overwhelming joy.

Personally I am not really too bothered, as I am too young to have really suffered from her past and can't exactly voice an opinion on it.

[Clockwork]

The problem with people our age and politics is that a) we love our stand up too much, me included, but by god they're left wing. b) the bbc is too left wing. This is unfortunately where 75% of our generation get their political information. My sister is a prime example of this, she watches Mock the Week for her political update. Also I'm biased, being so far right I actually think dictatorships are the best form of government.

[Jubal]

I disagree on the BBC. I think that most people who are on the traditional left consider them to be basically centrists - probably mostly Labour supporters, but since the 90s that has meant very little in terms of being left wing. It's worth looking at the BBC Thatcher coverage though in terms of left/right bias, pretty much everything was overwhelmingly positive (compare and contrast with the Guardian, which gave much more airing to criticisms of her, or the Morning Star which was practically fanfaring the occasion). The BBC has a lot of traditionalism and a strong tendency towards status quo support; it has a statist bias because it's publically funded and I'm not denying the lean to the left is there, but I think that only really counterbalances other news sources, most of which are right-leaning. That said I'm a hyper-liberal leftist, so I have to register the opposite bias.

I think Othko is right - my area is a Conservative heartland, and there's not much rejoicing here, but it was notable that the biggest celebrations I saw reported were in Liverpool and Brixton, areas which still haven't really recovered from the eighties in some ways.

[Clockwork]

True, Liverpool especially is famous for their hate of the Thatcher reigeme.

The BBC coverage was what they had to do (ok this is starting to sound hugely cynical and conspiracy theoryish, bear with me). The BBC can't openly say that they're against the Government as they must appear to be backing the current party in power, however, they get a huge amount of backing and money from the left wing (For the life of me I can't remember exactly my usual examples - will get back on that point) and they do have political leanings.

I agree completely that labour is now much more central than it was before Blair. The introduction of New Labour was (in my opinion) a reaction to how well the previous Tory parties had done. The traditional working class party moved into the now dominant middle class as by and large they control the lions share of votes. Anyway, this was the time that the BBC gained a huge amount of funding and satellite tv was really taking off. The outcome of this was an effect called the 'tone from the top'. This basically means that the people who hold the money (at the top of a pyramid diagram) dictate the tone that is set for the whole company, directly but also indirectly. Indirectly because the people on the next tier down are being paid by the guys on the tier above and want them to be happy, and therefore give them more money. This means that the guys on the lower tiers of the pyramid adopt the inclinations of the tier above them. Hope that actually made sense.

TL:DR Jubal is right, I'm a cynic.

[Jubal]

I agree, though it's not that people directly give the BBC money so much as the BBC rely on the state to keep the license fee deals good to keep running.

This is however a problem on both sides - the BBC will tend to lean to a statist model as if everything is parcelled off to the private sector, why bother with a public broadcaster? Generally the left like the idea of a state broadcaster more, and so will give better license fee deals, and so the BBC prefers the left. But the complete same thing is true in reverse with the commercial channels, who would do better without the BBC, would prefer a wholly market-driven (or rather oligarch-driven as it's not like anyone can afford to set up new TV channels without massive backing) system, and so lean to the right.

All in all I think the system works fairly well, the BBC tug left, the commercial channels and papers tug right, so we get a decent balance. The BBC has this underlying dependence on good license fees and a vested interest in the left doing well, but the flip side is just as true of the commercial media.

Back to topic; Thatcher's legacy certainly included a neoliberal Labour party. I think that was a bad thing myself, as both parties just enjoy parroting one another now. I think it's also dangerous as a lot of leftists don't feel they have anywhere to put their vote anymore; many will begrudgingly vote Labour but both parties have cut off their bases. The liberal left and traditional left are unwillingly dragged to rightwing economics by Labour, the rural conservatives are finding their party is now dominated by the powers Thatcher unleashed - finance and banking - and I think increasingly the rise of UKIP is attributable to traditional conservatives feeling the party is stuck with a very London-centric, finance-based mentality and not focussing on social issues and rural issues which is what they actually care about in areas like mine.

[Clockwork]

Very astute. I agree with your notions on TV news I agree we need both sides, I'm wholeheartedly in favour of both sides getting their say. Yeah I must say that leftists do seem to have got a raw deal with our political parties, but then again Britian has been a traditionalist and conservative nation since...Well since government really (yeah there are periods where there was reform and change but largely I think we've been conservative).

While what you say makes sense I also think that the rise in popularity of UKIP recently is in part because more people are realizing that being in the eurozone is crippling us financially. (Plenty of statistics for both sides of the argument, I'm not going to start a reference war ) I'm of the notion that both left and right are leaking supporters to them and then once we're out of the Eurozone, they'll return to their 'original' parties. Finance-based mentalities are not inherantly bad. Economic theory usually depends on people thinking like this (in fact some argue that if everyone thought this way then there would be far fewer economic troubles, a naieve view imo). Different areas require a different touch, what does your local MP say about issues affecting your area? I'd hazard a guess that what he/she has to say on the matter is a lot more relavant than anything Cameron will come out with. Same here in Northants the local MP deals with the local issues, I've even met him, he gives talks and helps people understand changes and the like in person. All around top bloke, and one of the few who never claimed on second homes or frivolous expenses and the like with that scandel a couple of years back.

You say the liberal and traditionalist left are dragged into right wing economics. Would you mind clarifying what you mean exactly? I'm not too familiar with this ground I'll be honest, I rarely talk politics and have not all that much ground knowledge of the subject.

[Jubal]

In terms of Britain's conservatism I'm going to leave that as a debate for another time, lest this thread explode into "all the politics ever: debate time!" (I sort of agree, I think there's certainly an affinity for the notion of traditional ideas and values, but I don't think that necessarily favours right-wing parties and furthermore I think there's also a very deep-rooted liberal tradition in Britain which tends to favour moderate leftism).

I think certainly the Eurozone has taken some big knocks in public confidence. UKIP are also gaining as the new protest vote party, as the Liberals are no longer able to attract those sorts of votes. I think Labour -> UKIP tends to be anti-EU and anti-Immigration, Con -> UKIP is a mix of that and a lack of Conservatives supporting their traditional voting blocs, and Liberals -> UKIP is mostly a rather weird protest vote shift. Again, debate for another time I think.

I've met or communicated with various MPs in the past; there is a definite gap between "old" conservatives in rural areas and "new" ones. The new ones, usually parachuted in via public schools and the city, are generally much worse on local issues. Also, look at the Conservative front bench; the mix is no longer rural gentry families and public schoolboys, it's public schoolboys and financiers. There are very, very few old-time rural conservatives high up in the party any more, and people round here know that. And I'd say that's a post-Thatcher phenomenon.

As for the economics, basically nobody in the Labour party today would be likely to say that they fundamentally didn't think the current corporation-style system was working on any front. They engage in efforts to boost low-end wages and keep unemployment benefits etc, but that's really the Thatcherite economic model but putting in a safety net at the bottom. The sorts of policies people like myself would like to see, or even just the sort of discussions, particularly in terms of whether we can actually organise the whole system differently, just aren't there (I won't go into too many details here, but key issues are oligopolies, business constitution laws, etc). That said, we still vote Labour (or Liberal or Green depending on constituency) because it's the least worst option. I don't think many people really want to turn the clock back to the seventies, but since Thatcher the left has basically resigned itself to damage limitation rather than producing a seriously structurally different vision of the country.

[Clockwork]

Cool, thanks for that, I feel smarter already .

 Another thread, another time we'll pick up what we've left unfinished I'm sure