School vs. education.

[Scarlet]

What do people think of these?

I can see where it's coming from but I feel somewhat hypocritical agreeing with them, being a somewhatmorethanaveragelysuccessful product of the English school system. The thing is, I'm not sure how much that was down to my school. I still feel the way I think about problems is kind of sub-optimal.

Thoughts? Opinions? Cries of outrage? Yells of support for our wonderful education secretary?

[Jubal]

I feel very strongly both that the videos are right and that they are wrong.

Where they are wrong; statistics. Lies, damned lies and statistics. The fact that ten famous people did not have degrees is NOT an acceptable or useful statistic on the usefulness of degrees except to prove that one does not have to have a degree to be rich (which is obvious), and furthermore does not in any way negate the value of academia. The fact remains that on average your parents and teachers are right, and that people with degrees average significantly more earnings over the course of their lifetime. Furthermore, academic learning, particularly at university level, has an innate value in the training it gives the mind and the broader, more perceptive view of reality one can get as a result; just because people aren't good at everything doesn't mean they shouldn't have to study it either. A better tailored system is needed in many areas, but simply because maths doesn't drive someone, or history isn't someone's real passion, shouldn't mean that they should leave school without having studied it. Education, in a democratic society, is not simply a right; there has to be a sense of duty there as well, and whilst the exam system is failing a lot of people I felt the view given in the videos of people just thinking "why am I studying this when I have no passion for it" is a bit simplistic.

Also as a society we need physicists, chemists, engineers, medics; we need people with degrees, and it's not simply a case of patting everyone on the head and telling them to follow their dreams. We as a society can affect what the rest of society values, and thus what those dreams are. If all we value is badly written pop music, IPhone apps, and football, and that's all people are exposed, then people won't have achievable or useful dreams, and that is collectively our fault as well. The videos partly address this, but it's not true just to see it as society VS the young; the young are part of that society, and our decisions on what we value affect what will give people drive and where people decide to look to find what they are capable of.

I'll do where they're right (basically everything else, particularly the need to educate more, focus on exams a LOT less, and most importantly of all cater better for the variety of people and vocations we have) sometime soon, just getting the critique out the way now. 

[Pentagathus]

Is it just me or does hearing either/neither in regards to a large list of people as opposed to just two people sound very weird?
I'd agree with jubal's critique completely, the only thing I have to add is that the point of learning things you will never use (e.g pythagoras theorem) is that you show you have the aptitude for it.
More focus on vocational training such as apprenticeships is a good idea, but its already being implemented so I don't really see the problem there. I think a greater choice in vocational GCSE subjects should be offered, for example some form of construction course including basic tradesmans skills (basic bricklaying, plastering, manual handling etc) and some health and safety training. That would have been much more useful for me than my crappy DT course which mainly consisted of looking up pictures of lamps on google.
However the primary focus of schools should remain on the current core subjects of english, science and maths. Not because everyone needs them to be successful, but because lots of people wouldn't have much chance to learn these subjects after school.

Also when I was at high school I didn't particularly enjoy any subject and had no intention of going to uni. I went to 6th form largely because my parents expected me to go. I was planning to do one year and then move onto a paid vocational engineering course, with no expectations that I'd enjoy 6th form at all. I was also pretty pissed off that I had to choose biology instead of geography since they were in different options blocks. Then in my first year I found I really enjoyed biology, quite liked chemistry, could stand physics, and detested maths. And now I'm going to a good university to study a subject I'm fascinated by, which should (hopefully) give me the opportunity to progress into a career I will actually enjoy. So I'm pretty happy my parents pushed me towards higher education. Not that they actually pushed that much, but hey.

[Scarlet]

The other thing that needs to be sorted really is the whole PSHCE/Citizenship/RS caboodle. Though good ideas they are currently almost entirely useless. It's an hour or two a week sitting there watching videos on crap you don't care about/crap you already know/ christianity. Learning things like how to fill in taxes, open a bank account and what the hell an ISA is would all have been vastly more helpful than "What makes a good citizen?" made by Channel 4 in 1999. Granted the bulling, abuse, drugs, careers and sex education was somewhat better but it was still pretty awful (especially at a girl's school with the 13 year old male german exchanges sitting at the back of the class >_<).

[Pentagathus]

Haha I bet that was fun.
Citizenship was pretty much the same for us from the sounds of things.

[Othko97]

I thought this might be a related video. It basically sums up my own views on education much more succinctly and effectively than I ever could. Also, the guy has a knighthood, which I do not

In reference to the original videos I agree with Jubal in that we do need people with degrees, and in that society is driven by the youth. I would actually say that a good deal of our consumerist got-to-have culture and society is led by the youth - we all need our fancy phones, our football teams and our pop music. The young are especially well versed in this technological era, and it is actually more of a social taboo NOT to have a smartphone, or a football team, or even a favourite pop star. We can't say that society is what dictates us when we dictate society, it doesn't quite work like that. While educational reform is certainly necessary - we are still teaching using Victorian methods which just don't really work in this modern age - blaming society isn't quite right.

The main problem I see with any educational overhaul has to be the fact that there will always be a cut-off line. One year will be schooled in one system and the next a completely different one, making things complex for employers and unfair on graduates. Another problem is the logistical difficulty of an absolute reformation of education - which I suspect is why nothing of the sort has actually happened yet. Our [current] government can't seem to make up their minds about any kind of alteration in this field - my entire year group across the country were either pressured or forced by their schools to choose certain options due to some armadillo called the English Baccalaureate. This was basically some title thing what you got for getting A* to C in the following: English; Maths; Additional Science; a humanity (e.g. History, Geography); and a Modern Foreign Language (e.g. Spanish, French, German). We were told that universities and colleges would hold this in high esteem and may actually require it for entry. Just under two years down the line, our glorious leaders decided in their infinite wisdom that it would not matter after all and they were scrapping the program. Before ANY of the students who were supposed to get one even could. As you may be able to tell, this doesn't rest easy with me, as I would have chosen Computing over German, had I not had the threat of not getting into college.

I also agree wholeheartedly on Citizenship, RS and PSHCEE or whatever its current abbreviation is. They are pointless (with the possible exception of RS), as EVERYONE in the room already knows the syllabus.

I apologise for the wall of text, and mild rant about the English Baccalaureate.

[Scarlet]

I don't think the EBacc was not a bad idea in essence. The idea of getting people to have a wider education is a good one just, as with the rest of this crap, it was put into action badly. I also think there is not enough emphasis on languages [And don't even get me started on the teaching methods].

Can you tell my parents are in education/academia? xD

[Othko97]

Yeah, I have to say that an additional, prestigious certificate is actually a good thing. However, making it a requirement for college and university and forcing kids to choose it is a bit... unwise.

[Edit]
Oh, and I agree also on languages, it is an important skill to have and more people need it.

[Clockwork]

As a bit of background: I suppose I fit into the other category. I'm not very well schooled on anything; I attended probably 20-30% of all my classes since year 9 and achived nothing remarkable in my GCSE years (B's and C's with an A in physics and Spanish) however I would still like to think I've educated myself but I'm also not smart either. I read about history, practice and learn languages and while I may come across as a bit of a dumbass some of the time (usually playing to the stereotype I fulfill), I find difficult theoretical concepts (quantum mechanics recently for example)  understandable and relatable.

In response to the videos, I think that he has a good idea but took it in the wrong direction. It's not about the handful of people that made money without going to uni, it's about the fact that they occupied a gap in the market for something. In melodramatic terms: people need(ed) them.

A degree doesn't just show that you're a smart individual, it also shows that you're committed to that particular area and have worked to get to a position where you can be employed in a certain profession. In a hypothetical situation where degrees were not needed and you could get a job just by being smart (yes everything is completely over simplified for this), someone that has the capability to be a particle physicist can also most likely be capable of being a rocket scientist and there would be nothing (contracts are tenuous...ish) to stop them switching jobs on the fly simply for amusement.

Secondly, subjects like citizenship/General Studies are pointless imo. They are purposefully put into a syllabus to allow people who otherwise wouldn't get the right grades to go to uni. This to me seems to completely defeat the point of A-Levels, which are (to a certain extent) a measure of your academic skills and ability to work in an academic environment.

TLDR, degrees have their uses. PHSE/ General studies is counterproductive.

EDIT: Audio cut out on the video from Othko at around 11.07, I feel like I missed 34 seconds of genius.

[Scarlet]

Appropriate I feel.



I'm not sure I agree that general studies is useless. I didn't take the subject and I think it is right that universities do not count it, but I can see that it could be useful for teaching one how to think. If it is taught. Jubal, you took it didn't you? What is involved?

[Clockwork]

I did take it, I was speaking from experience. You learn the same skills that were taught in GCSE English about essay writing and the same skills that were taught in GCSE science about how to incorperate scientific data and statistics into writing. Then you answer a question in the exam along the lines of: Explain how social minorities are discriminated against in every aspect of life? (some kind of 'feel bad because you're white british' sentiment anyway). All I wrote was 'What kind of bollocks is this?' and failed, bit of a mistake but hey... I was even more of an ass back then

EDIT: And you cover the same topics as PHSE but now you're expected to have the right opinion on them.

[Jubal]

Went to no lessons, ninety-seven percent average, including two 100% papers. In theory it could be useful I think. In practice, in its current form, I have to agree with ln13.

Critical Thinking (which I did up to AS level) was more useful and at least actually had some content.

[Scarlet]

So it really is the piece of crap {does that counts as a swear?} we think it is Critical thinking does sound better.

[Clockwork]

Is critical thinking teaching you to ask why and to try to find the root or first principle of causes/problems? If so I'd say it's useful but as of the moment I'm not sure what it entails.

[Pentagathus]

Nope. From what I remember it was just about how to write and critique arguments properly. It was fairly useful I suppose, like a light literature  course.