Author Topic: Strong Women  (Read 2796 times)

Clockwork

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Strong Women
« on: August 17, 2013, 05:50:20 PM »
http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2013/08/i-hate-strong-female-characters

Don't be put off by the title, she doesn't hate strong women characters, she hates the term. This has probably been discussed already and I haven't checked. I hate her not for anything poignant she says but simply because she trashes on Superheros (and Dr. Who). Bitch.

Sub discussion, is Dr. Who a Superhero? I'd say on the whole, yes.

Wears a mask, check (sort of).
Is on balance 'good', easily check
Usually survives fatal injuries, check
Has a ridiculous outfit, check (apart from Eccleston and sometimes Tennant)

I think this is in fact a thoroughly exhaustive list of what constitutes a superhero. Or something like that.
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Jubal

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Re: Strong Women
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2013, 06:53:25 PM »
I didn't feel she was hating on Doctor Who, I found the Who comment quite funny.  :P

And she is right, it's a cleverly written piece - it's certainly true that you wouldn't bother calling a male character "strong". Good characters are well written ones, not "strong" ones.

As to the Doctor, I don't think of him as a superhero, sure he does save the world etc, but he's not there TO save the world in the way most superheroes are. It's just something he can't help getting himself involved in.
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Clockwork

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Re: Strong Women
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2013, 10:25:47 PM »
Yeah the comment on Dr Who was funny rather than mean, just trying to get someone to take notice :P

I commend her for her writing, she does write well and is right in the core aspect of what she's talking about, but she knows apparently nothing of superheroes or the generation in which they were written. There were no females in any of them because they had only just got the vote and writers were more than likely uncomfortable writing for women in traditionally male held roles(X-men aside, even as early as the beginning of the 40's the female characters were equally if not more powerful than the men: Jean Grey as perfect example).

That's right, I don't particularly care about feminism one way or another. In my opinion it's the right thing overall but I don't think relentlessly pushing us into a matriarchal society is right, which is sometimes where I feel it's headed. I do care about Superheroes though, and about this she is so utterly and unrepentantly wrong.

I wrote the list about the doctor as a joke but I'm undecided on him, I think he's actually too boring to be a superhero. Compared with the anti-heros of Iron Man, Batman, Wolverine, Deadpool and countless others he has no real edgy side to him. His greatest moments are boons of his abilities not his character. Yes he's brave but that's pretty much an absolute basic for hero status. Whereas, say, Archangel who has giant wings but otherwise no super powers stays to fight off an army while his team escapes is foolhardy in his resolution, Cyclops harbours a rage that he fears to unleash which makes him neurotic (actually the doctor does have that but it's rarely explored).

Anyone else into Superheroes? As in actually reads the comics and not just watches the movies. I own every issue of X-Men from #1 to like 700 or something on .cbx and .cbz (pdf for comics) if anyone wants.
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Jubal

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Re: Strong Women
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2013, 11:52:07 PM »
As a very important note, pushing towards a Matriarchal society isn't feminism by the traditional or more widely accepted definition, it's female supremacism. I will agree there are risks in overstatement in feminist literature and there is often too little scrutiny of how and when crass generalisations are made, but it's very important to distinguish and maintain the "feminist" label as meaning "gender equality".

Onto topic: it's true that superheroes originated in the 40s & 50s, but that doesn't mean that the newer comics have to follow the same lines. A lot of the characters have literally been reborn/passed their suits on several times in the literature since their first incarnations, so 1940s attitudes needn't dictate modern comic releases and/or films. And in many ways I don't think she was sniping at a lot of the heroes too much, with odd exceptions - the point I felt was that there aren't many female characters who are developed with the sort of edges and definitions the male ones have. As you say, for example, there's Cyclops and his neurosis about the dangers of his own powers, and so on and so forth - but in literature in general there are precious few female characters developed beyond "tits and guns" or "tits and no guns". Even the well written ones suffer from being pigeonholed because there are so damn few of them. I think the other thing to note is that she is probably wrong in many cases about comic book superheroes because like most of the rest of the world she's probably not well versed in graphic novels - and the writing of the characters in films, where a lot of people haven't been exposed to the depth of the proper comic canon, is often really, really dire.

I disagree strongly on the Doctor though, whilst at first sight he does sometimes come across as a bit bland and jovial, for me he has a lot more potential to be really, really grimly scary than anti-heroes like Batman. The Doctor doesn't have vices per se, but definitely has a hell of a cutting edge to him. Such as
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also
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The Doctor at his scariest is a reminder of what happens when good realises, in cold and calculating majesty, that being nice simply isn't always efficient. Batman has all these beatings up of people, struggles over not killing them, etc - the Doctor, in his colder moments, would have managed to get them to kill each other. When the Doctor goes anti-heroic he doesn't light a fag, phone for a hooker, or start beating his enemies into a pulp - he just starts removing and/or destroying people who are being problematic. He does get some bad writing at times (as do all major recurring characters), but I think he can be one of the most fascinatingly complex and grey characters at his best.
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Clockwork

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Re: Strong Women
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2013, 12:29:38 AM »
The thing is she's talking about the start, and that's very clearly detailed. I don't think I was very clear about comics, I was saying that they're arguably the most forward thinking version of literature. There has been gender equality since before that was even a term. She does completely disregard the females who are exactly the type she wants to see, which is just ridiculous. Widow in The Avengers is a main character but is also (relatively) realistic in terms of emotions. Nobody even hits on her at all I don't think, do in the comics but they span a much longer time period. Lara Croft is another example and one that shows progressive thinking as well. She's turned into Batman but kills people and now has a chest size that actually allows freedom of movement.

Don't get me wrong on the Doctor, I think he's an amazing character I think that actually the concept and the more interesting elements of him are let down not by bad writing as such but because he's made for TV and there are limitations as to how much action needs to be put in relative to the amount of depth you can go into in one episode. I do however think he's good rather than grey and I also think he should be, there are enough grey characters to last a lifetime on Tv :P

As to the actual important stuff, yeah equality is good. Perfect even and treating everybody equally is the way to go for sure. However that doesn't seem to be what's on a fair few of the agendas I've read, I find a disproportionate amount of revenge motives and general dickheadedry. *Most* of the writers for this type of literature are male and as such, writing male characters is going to be easier than writing for female characters. Yes I'm fully aware that a good writer can write for either gender but it is harder and as such not something the writer will want to do all the time. I don't think it's anything really to do with gender inequality (as i've already said, these guys writing it are almost universally feminist/pro-equality) and much more to do with what a writer feels comfortable with.
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Clockwork

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Re: Strong Women
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2013, 02:38:28 AM »
portugal sake Rob, leave the internet alone when you're pissed. -.- Sorry Jub, sure you had better things to do than answer my ramblings :/
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 04:53:59 AM by Rob »
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Re: Strong Women
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2013, 12:40:17 PM »
Yes, do it for Portugal's sake. :)

Clockwork

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Re: Strong Women
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2013, 03:32:49 PM »
And pissed as in drunk for those over the sea :P
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Jubal

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Re: Strong Women
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2013, 02:28:32 PM »
It's fine, it was quite interesting really.  :)

And yeah, I think what I meant about the Doctor is that when written well he just sometimes shows how scary good in a very pure, calculating form actually is.
The duke, the wanderer, the philosopher, the mariner, the warrior, the strategist, the storyteller, the wizard, the wayfarer...