RTR Project 'Grand Campaign' BETA Testing through 0.4

[Alavaria]

Great. What about the error messages from show_err, those are really important.

[Bercor]

Great. What about the error messages from show_err, those are really important.

Well, I don't know about that. I use Steam and can play the mod withouth problems. Just delete that two files and try to start a campaign.

[ahowl11]

If you delete those two files, the game should work without any error. If there are errors, then something isn't right.

[Alavaria]

Yeah it works now. So that's great.

But the error messages that tell me what I've screwed up in editing a text file like the EDB or EDU are actually really useful when working with those things. It seems I can't access that with a Steam version.

I think there are checking tools people made, but they aren't able to catch everything. And without show_err help, it could be a random . anywhere in the file.

[Bercor]

Yeah it works now. So that's great.

But the error messages that tell me what I've screwed up in editing a text file like the EDB or EDU are actually really useful when working with those things. It seems I can't access that with a Steam version.

I think there are checking tools people made, but they aren't able to catch everything. And without show_err help, it could be a random . anywhere in the file.

Ah, I understand it now. Well, when the game crashes due to some error in the EDB or EDU that still appears, even in Steam, at least I think I've seen it. It didn't appear in your crash because the game tries the use the old map.rmw and it can't, so it just crashes, but without recognizing why it did. If you want, just try to mess around with the EDU a bit and see what happens.

[ahowl11]

I think you need to right click on your RTW game in steam, go to properties, set launch options to -show_err

[Cyprian2]

Assuming this is where I can post my Macedon play test?

Either way, here it is —  finally!

A quick note before I begin: I will be referring the factions as they are called in the current build (i.e. Macedon instead of Antigonids, and Egypt instead of the Ptolemies, etc.) Also, I've commented on certain things that are not necessarily relevant to the mod's current beta state -- things that will in all likelihood get seen to sooner or later.

I somehow misplaced my screenshots from the beginning of my campaign, so I'll have to summarize the first turns.

campaign

To begin, I can say that Macedon starts in a very good position, both financially and strategically. This could be made more precarious by lessening the start treasury (which I think is 5000), but it's maybe ok, since it reflects the somewhat centralized power of the Antigonids at the time.

(I will refrain from commenting on the roster at this point, since the names are still vanilla, and I will make some notes about stats when I discuss the battles.)

The capital, Pella, starts with walls and a decent garrison, and having Thessalonica and Larissa within easy travelling distance makes for a strongly centralized position. 

However, Macedon's two isolated outposts — Corinth (in the Peloponnesus) and Chalkis (off the coast of Athens) are immediately problematic, since the player must decide whether or not to spare the resources to maintain them.

I decided early on that I would fortify Corinth against potential threats from the Greeks in order to exploit its rich trade (much as Antigonus Gonatas did historically).

Spoiler

Reasoning that I would not get attacked within the first ten turns or so, I started by disbanding several units of  levy hoplites throughout my empire (except in Corinth). This had the double effect of boosting my city populations and saving some money off my overhead.

I focused on building mines and a port in Thessalonica and barracks and armouries in Pella and Larissa. (I was never in the red, having more than enough money to continuously upgrade my cities.)

In the first or second turn, I sent a small force north to take the lightly defended rebel city of Bylazora, which became yet another spoke in my great Macedonian wheel.

Since, I was having very little problems with unrest in my cities, and could afford to keep a large force in the field, so I decided on a blitz against the Thracians, hoping to eliminate them quickly and take their cities — notably the mining town, Philipopolis.

My leader, Antigonus Gonatas, won a heroic victory outside of Philipopolis and decimated the Thracians, killing several family members in the bargain.

Here is a picture of the marker:

Spoiler

I besieged Philipopolis but, as you can see, I was unable to follow up on my victory, because the Egyptians attacked me in Chalcis, forcing Antigonus to sail to the city's relief. (The Thracians accepted peace after paying me 2000 dinarii.)

The Egyptian raiders were few and easily dealt with, but it was an interesting development. Initially, I thought that they had landed from a fleet, which put a great big smile on my face, since, as we all know, the AI has traditionally avoided naval invasions. Then I realized that they'd actually island-hopped across the Aegean on land bridges.

While I can see how the land bridge ensures an early (and historical) conflict between Macedon and Egypt, I wonder if it would be better to have some Egyptian possessions in Thrace (perhaps Lysimacheia) to represent the encroaching power of Ptolemy Keraunos, or else have him represented as a strong rebel force (as in RTR VII).

Anyway, thanks to their magic stepping stones, the Egyptians were theoretically able to raid Chalcis at will, but refrained from doing so after I pushed them out that one time. Instead, they gathered a lot of highly threatening skirmisher armies around Naxos and did absolutely nothing besides.

Spoiler

A historical alliance is concluded between Macedon and the Seleucids against their common Egyptian enemy.

Spoiler

Neat to see this guy hanging out just outside Athens, on holiday, it seems. Quite the collection of ancillaries!

Spoiler

Another interesting thing happened on Chalcis, when small rebel army, consisting of some Rhodian slingers and cretan archers — ka-ching! — spawned. Given my massive financial resources, I attempted to bride them — and they accepted!

Spoiler

They supplied my garrison on Chalcis, and I looked forward to unleashing the Cretans on some unsuspecting Nubians. Sadly, the Egyptians weren't biting.

In 266, my finances were very good, and I was able to resume my war against the Thracians.

Spoiler

Battle

I'll give a quick run-through of my battle against the Illyrians.

Since they attacked me, I positioned myself on some rough terrain and waited for the assault.

Spoiler

My generic Greek archers, with sliver missile upgrades, are cheap units that pack a punch.

Spoiler

There was nothing subtle in the Thracian battle plan. It was an all out charge.

Spoiler

My levy hoplites and pikemen, granted they were upped in both armour and experience, simply stood still and devoured the oncoming falxmen. I was always under the impression that falxmen are to be feared by pikes, but these guys crumbled like cardboard cutouts. At the same time, had they attacked from the flank rather than head-on, the results might have been different. 

Spoiler

It was only a matter of time before the general charged my ranks and died.

Spoiler

Annoyingly, the garrison in Philipopolis stayed put, so I wasn't able to take the city this turn. Oh, well. I took it next turn:

Spoiler

As you can see, I've got another army (commanded by my faction heir) advancing on the last Thracian city, Oresteia. The gig is almost up for Thrace. And yet, in a massive strategical fail, they have a massive stack on vacation up in Dacia. If that stack had descended on me  at Philipopolis, things might not have been so peachy.

Luckily, my faction leader thought to fortify the bridge crossing against such a possibility.

[Overview]

Playing on hard/hard has proven smooth sailing so far. That said, I haven't faced the Romans or the Greeks yet, so that may change.

Elsewhere in the world, the Carthies are doing what they should in Spain:

Spoiler

And wrestling with the Scipii on Sicily:

Spoiler

Meanwhile, the Brutii are encoreching from the west and it looks like they might come to blows with the Greeks soon.

Spoiler

And, in the North of Spain, Atlantis is rediscovered:

Spoiler

(The glitch went away next turn.  )

Well, that's all for now. WIll report back with more when I've had a chance to face some Romans!

[Mausolos of Caria]

That's a great report, my friend! I love to see the Ptolemies attacking Macedon in the Aegean, no mod has done that so far. And I thoroughly agree, that Ptolemaios Keraunos should be simulated somehow, but I think ahowl already mentioned it somewhere and plans to adress this issue.

Reading your report also got me wondering, where and when we should discuss the map in regards to which faction owns which settlement? Obviously we are still thinking about what towns to choose and perhaps there will be a completely new map, but we shoud keep in mind to revise that situation as well.

[Bercor]

That's a great report, my friend! I love to see the Ptolemies attacking Macedon in the Aegean, no mod has done that so far. And I thoroughly agree, that Ptolemaios Keraunos should be simulated somehow, but I think ahowl already mentioned it somewhere and plans to adress this issue.

Reading your report also got me wondering, where and when we should discuss the map in regards to which faction owns which settlement? Obviously we are still thinking about what towns to choose and perhaps there will be a completely new map, but we shoud keep in mind to revise that situation as well.

Oh, don't worry, ahowl loves opening new threads.

In regards to Cyprian post, nice report. From what I see, the economy seems pretty loose. We need to tighten that! Also, I dislike the island hopping system, one reasonable invasion from Anatolia to mainland Greece should take time and logistics, not a merely jump from island to island. The AI in BI is pretty good conducting naval invasions (in fact, it's probably the best in the series in that aspect) so I don't think it's needed. It's good to see Carthage behave historically.

[ahowl11]

Excellent report!
Ptolemy Keraunos will be present when everything is said and done
Thrace is weak but that's fine since they will become Illyrians
I like Egypt being involved in Greek affairs.

Well BI did do naval invasions but once landed the armies were stuck. Who knows we can test it.

As far as city ownership, once I change the faction list, we will do that.

[CaliGen]

Hi all

just re-installed everything, patched and dl + install mod. Looks like its working OK.

I will play the campaign as Spain since I did not see anyone sign up for that. Will post my findings again in a few days.

------
By the way it took me 5 goes to get past the captcha on this forum... I like rearranging pictures of cats just as much as the next person, but I'm just saying 

[Bercor]

Hi all

just re-installed everything, patched and dl + install mod. Looks like its working OK.

I will play the campaign as Spain since I did not see anyone sign up for that. Will post my findings again in a few days.

------
By the way it took me 5 goes to get past the captcha on this forum... I like rearranging pictures of cats just as much as the next person, but I'm just saying 

Yeah, that's kind boring in the beggining. After a certain number of posts, it's gone.

[ahowl11]

Eager to see a Spain Report!

[CaliGen]

General comments:
Load time- seemed longer by about 50% compared to similar graphics settings on vanilla

Load screen- very gray and depressing. Does the realism have to also apply to the load screens. I was just playing "Megas Alexandros" and they had bright yellow loading screens. Just saying, a little color goes a long way.

Campaign map- very nice. Not sure if this is a new map or one that has been jacked from another mod. I particularly liked detail on the alps. Did you consider the 4 season year mod? BE did this I recall, and you got longer life out of your characters. The movement was reduced in winter in the cold parts of the map, and reduced during the summer in the desert parts of the map.
Also, there is a settlement called "Arse" on the Mediterranean coast of Spain... consider adding a pronunciation accent or something to stop players mentally pronouncing it as is. While on the topic of "Arse", just to the South is a dock and a river mouth. Graphical faults with both. In fact, in several places on the map I looked the coast looked a bit roughly drawn, which is a shame because other parts of it are lovely. E.g. the river delta South of Patavium looks like it was done free-hand in paint. Just looks like it needs some attention in places. Other appearance problems I suspect might be improved by  not placing docks near rivers, or roads going over rivers near docks, etc. In some places, the coast has been extended into the river mouth, but this doesn't look good in several places. Also, these estuaries seem to be irresistible to groups of pirate fleets.
-Also noted that it is now difficult to see at a glance what level the port of a settlement has. The fishing village looks not obviously different from the upgrades. I need to use the tooltips to remember I can shelter my fleet there.
-Also felt that the size of some of the provinces was unrealistic. Again to compare with the mod Megas Alexandros, there are 4 large "wasteland" areas which cannot be taken by anyone. I think they did it by having inaccessible rebel cities hidden in the far bottom left corner. In this map, the province "aethiopia" covers most of africa. In reality, these vast desert areas, e.g. the center of the Arabian peninsula, would not have been governable by factions, nor would Empires have had any interest in them because there was nothing there apart from a few bedoins. E.g. Alexander's empire simply flowed around the desert lands in the middle of the Arabian peninsula.

Character traits- it seems that governors can usually be safely left in settlements without them becoming fat, corrupt perverts. This is good, because in vanilla RTW they became a hindrance and often the settlement would be better off in terms of happiness and income when they were camped outside the walls.

Settlements/Empire management
-No idea how a Spanish player would hold a large empire together over these distances from capital. Their highest happiness bonus from temples is 30%. Add 10% from bardic circle (but then the governors become alcoholics...) and I anticipate this is still not enough to keep large cities under your rule.
-Spanish have governor's house buildings up to Imperial palace, but there is no graphic, and "this text should never appear in game" appears in the description. Neither are their any upgrades available for buildings (e.g. foundry) above minor city.

Battle map- I was really impressed with the battle map. It was incredibly real-looking compared to vanilla. The trees looked great,  and the lay of the land seemed much more random and believable. Really felt like I was there in the hills of Spain. Somethings I noted were that the trees inside the settlements were giant and out of proportion as in vanilla... could they be made more like the trees outside the city?

Unit skins- All the units generally appeared gray and depressing. I guess that was intentional since ordinary soldiers would probably not have had dyed clothing etc.  Also, nice to see barbarians of the far north dressed slightly more appropriately for the Russian winters for once.
-In the unit card for "boats" (not large boats) there is something odd.
-I noted that the voices for Spanish general heavy cavalry is Eastern, while the ordinary troops usually speak in Northern barbarian accents.

Combat dynamics- I was playing on H/H and the game-play is a bit different from what I am used to. More casualties, even from charging 3 cavalry units into the rear of a weak infantry unit still getting losses. Need to much more careful of generals. Enemy generals do not stay alive for a few minutes when mobbed after all other enemy is dead, as would be the case often in vanilla. Generally cavalry appear weaker than in vanilla. Can no longer just charge a stack of cavalry and expect to rout the enemy. Need to think of tactics, which is hard (but rewarding when they work) and basically need to retrain the stack after every battle, which is expensive!

I have a few suggestions if we are talking about combat realism:
- galloping your cavalry through your own infantry might cause a few casualties. In vanilla when a unit was in phalanx (e.g. phalangites), charging your own cavalry through would result in losses. Is there any way to duplicate this?
- units set to fire at will should not fire at an enemy unit which has just broken in combat with one of your own units, while the 2 units are still mixed together. The volley ends up killing more of your own unit because it hits them in the back. Units should never fire when there is risk of hitting allies unless they are specifically ordered to do so IMO.
-The AI is still doing stupid things like it would do in vanilla. E.g. pointlessly running between 2 points while your army outflanks them or pointlessly running around while you shoot them. In one siege, the AI did sally out of their gate (sabotaged by my spy) instead of just standing their and being pin-cushioned by my skirmishers as they would do in Vanilla.

CTDs
So far 5 CTD. None generated any error msg even though -show_err was activated. None have been repeatable, after reloading the game and replying the same trigger, no CTD occurred. This makes me think that the crash might be somehow to do with a randomly generated thing each battle (terrain?) which causes some battles to crash and not at another time. Also, I recall vanilla BI had occasional crashes for me, but did not remember them to be this frequent.
1st- Happened after a battle (not a siege, just mopping up some brigands in the countryside). I saw the campaign map for about 1 second then ctd. No character in my army. I am thinking maybe it was the "man of the hour" promotion scroll that usually appears in such circumstances, but at another occasion in my game this appeared without any crash, so I don't know.
2nd- occurred immediately when I clicked assault on the settlement just NW of Narbo. Held by Gaul, my army was a full stack of mercs, dogs and Spanish light/missile troops. Next time I played this battle, there was no ctd and the loading screen appeared as per normal.
3rd- half way through loading screen for another assault- celtiberia/gauls
4th- half way through loading screen for a large battle with gauls
5th- half way through loading screen for battle (sally from besieged settlement against gauls)

Notes on Spanish campaign
Part#1 Establishing my faction as the dominant power in Hispania
- I was just able to snatch up all the independent settlements in the Iberian peninsula. Tense few opening turns and I was almost outpaced by gaul and carthage. I was spread way too thin but they chose not to break the peace.
- I note that Spain can no longer build stone walls as they could in BI. I am a defensive player so this makes this faction undesirable for me. If that is due to historic accuracy, then fair enough, I know that is what this mod is about. Lack of stone walls is made up for by the wooden walls which are very impressive. Loving the new siege equipment. The siege tower that has the bridge which swings down from above has a minor graphical fault: the ropes which hold the bridge in the upright position remain pointing out into the air once the bridge has swung down.
- The description for the Spanish campaign was so gloomy that I was too cautious to attack either Gaul or Carthage. I allied with Carthage instead, and apart from sending the odd lone character to loiter around my lands (even though they immediately cry "transgression!" if I even step on their land for a short cut), they have left me alone.
Gaul have just stayed behind their walls in Celtiberia, while I have seen them taking a few independent settlements in Southern Gaul. No sign of Rome until their diplomat appeared out of the fog of war to propose an alliance, but I am building the strength of my armies in Narbo, with another stack poised to take celtiberia and another to sweep down on the Carthaginians in the south. Both cities had about a half stack of weak troops. I was considering waiting until Rome declared war on each of my rivals, then to attack them in the back and then hopefully they would sue for peace once I have the territories I want.
- due to the amount of mining available in Spain, combined with a lot of coastal settlements for sea trade, and fertile land, I became the richest faction by 236BC and have kept that position since, despite building everything possible and maintaining an ever-growing army of mercs and my own troops.
I know that historically Iberia had much gold and silver, and that is what brought the Carthaginians, but not sure if it is realistic that a barbarian kingdom would be so much richer than other more civilized Empires at this time?
- A large cash flow through my treasury has allowed me to hire a lot of Spanish mercenaries to bolster my stacks. I note that the scutarii (which I cannot yet recruit) are stronger than the mercs, even though the skin/unit card is virtually identical.
-Optimizing 3 settlements in the north of my lands for infantry, cavalry and missile production respectively.
- So far the campaign description has not matched the gameplay experience. Far from being very hard, it has been plain sailing so far ... I feel like I am in a strong position, but then I have not attacked any other factions yet. Suspect as soon as I do, the Carthaginian fleet will blockade some of my sea trade, and possibly land a revenge army via their fleets, and gaul will start sending warband
after warband from the north, as they tend to do in vanilla to anyone who takes one of their cities. Considering attack on rome before the Marian reforms (not sure what reform triggers are in this mod). Synchronized landing of a distraction/raiding party from a fleet into southern italy and transalpine land war into northern Italy methinks. I have a general whose command
rating is nearing 10 when attacking. I could use his stack in a blitz maneuver to take several settlements before the romans know what is happening.
- brigands are appearing a lot on my lands. I am trying to build forts and watchtowers to keep this from happening so much, but at least it is giving my units experience before the real fighting begins.
-A Julli spy was caught and executed by my spy garrisoned in narbo. Soon after, the Julii army appeared on my side of the alps- they have declared war on the Greeks to take the Greek colony there. I will be v. annoyed if they attack me instead of declaring war on Gaul. Maybe I should have let Gaul take Narbo =D
-Keeping my diplomat in Southern Gaul to contact them if and when I need to, I need to train another and land him in Africa.

Part II: First Blood
Suddenly- Carthage declared war on Numidia. I was positioning for an assault over a few turns, and then the roman factions all declared war on Carthage (presumably over territories in Sicily, but nothing near me). So, I thought the time was right and launched my war on Carthage's forces now dotted over southern Spain. I besieged their settlement while mopping up the wandering character and units that had been in my lands. Took the city after a hard battle (despite outnumbering enemy almost 2:1 I took a lot of casualties on the battlements in the hard melee). I spent a year retraining my stack and built some boats in the adjacent settlements. I could see Tingis across the straight of Gibraltar, Carthage had foolishly emptied their garrison (presumably to siege some of Numidia's settlements on the African coast to the east). Unloaded my freshly trained stack and took Tingis with minimal resistance. So now I have a foothold in Africa 257BC, and it looks stable because Numidia are hostile to Carthage, and are acting as a buffer between me and the Carthaginians. Their fleets seemed to move away from Spain once I had taken Tingis, which was nice. I have almost 2 full stacks in the North of Spain now. Lots and lots of Spanish Mercenaries + wardogs just waiting for the Romans and the Gauls to make their fatal move against each other before I lay waste to Northern Italy and cripple the heartlands of the Julii. Mwhahaha

Part III: Gaulish-Roman alliance of terror
I was feeling confident now, but Gaul decided to declare war on me (256BC). Still confident, I decided to simply repel their small invasion with my stacks and wait for Rome to attack them. Rome however had different plans, and the Julii declared war on me in 254BC, riding rough shod over my existing alliance with the Brutii, and triggering the Senate and the other roman factions to declare war the next turn. Damn. So for the last 10-20 or so turns I have been fighting a desperate campaign in Southern Gaul against huge numbers of gauls and romans, and Roman fleets are blockading my Mediterranean trade... 2 of my settlements there have been sacked by the Gauls and the Romans, only for me to retake them in the next turn. My main strength needs to be in 2 or 3 places at once. I noted that the Gauls are using Barbarian mercs, so I have started hiring every single merc that appears. These weak troops are not doing to well against the Roman armies being sent against me, but they hold the line against Gaulish warbands just long enough for my cavalry to flank their line and charge their rear. Every battle is the same, I rout more than I kill, but there are high losses. This situation is very difficult for me, but neither of my enemies (or indeed Carthage for that matter) accept my offers of peace. I am having to kill a large stack of either Romans or Gauls each turn. Merc units are decimated and merged together so I just keep hiring more. My own troops are chronically under-strength because I prefer to retrain them than merge. My now faction leader (10 star command on attack) is still alive, but he is getting into middle age now. Turn by desperate turn, I have repelled each army sent against me. Bringing up literally every supporting unit being trained in the Northern Spanish settlements each turn, I reached a stalemate with Gaul. Once my back was covered, finally I was able to siege the previously Greek now Roman held colony with stone walls (I forget the name) just before the Alps. The hammer-blow retaliation from the Romans was swift and brutal. They attacked me with 2 armies that appeared out of the fog: 1 large stack and another smaller army, and the roman garrison sallied out as well. This battle was the bloodiest so far... The terrain was steep and wooded. Thankfully, I was able to line my experienced mercs in one steep corner and wait for the uncountable number of hastati units, supported by velites and light cavalry to trudge towards me. Arrogantly, the Romans did not unite their vast forces but instead each took its own course directly towards me. All my dogs and pila were spent on the first attack, but that army was routed. The next 2 armies were winded after their long march, and each routed once I had killed their generals with an all or nothing cavalry charge round their flanks. Wow, what a hard fought victory. My losses were >50%, and I get a site of famous victory marker on the map. I slaughtered the remaining Garrison in the city on my next turn with my exhausted troops. I managed to retrain/merge most of my army, and now the city is sieged every few turns by the Romans. So my faction leader is now learning the art of defense as well as his attack skills. The stone walls help a lot, and the situation is stable while I build in Southern Gaul into a military-industrial powerhouse. Finally get access to Scutarii and bull warriors and there is a ray of hope as I cower behind my captured walls, because lord help the Spanish when principes and triarii appear on the scene. Need to move fast, but always I am held up by their armies (how do they even train so many?) Really would be a nice time for Britania or Germania to declare war on Gaul, but everyone seems against me now. My only allies are the Numidians, and I suspect they may be getting slowly chewed up by Carthage.

I will definitely continue this campaign for a while, but I always enjoy the start of games more than managing a large Empire. Is there an earlier stable version of total realism? I think I would enjoy that more than this version which seems in progress, although I will surely download the thing when it is finished... thanks for the mod, enjoying this campaign a lot.

[CaliGen]

Also: there was a bug when sieging a settlement. I drew my siege tower against the stone walls, and once it was in position none of my units seemed capable of entering it. I would click them and order them on to the ramparts, but they immediately said back "order completed" without moving. Tried to get a unit to re-position the tower, but it could no longer be selected. Luckily, I always make extra siege equipment, and I had 2 spare rams and eventually took the settlement in the low-tech manner.