Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster

[ahowl11]

Alright, I hope you all know what units you want out of the mod, more than likely we will agree and see eye to eye on most units. Basically in the OP I will have a list of every vanilla faction (with the name of the faction that they will turn into in parenthesis) and their units. Then using the wonderful Strikethrough editor we will cross out any unit who is unworthy of RTR! I might include a *note on certain units depending on how this goes.

Rules/Things to know:
1.Peasants MAY have to stay in due to a revolt CTD bug that RTRPE experienced by deleting peasant units. There may be a way around this if we moved the worst infantry unit of each faction to be recruited by the governor's house, it will require testing.

2. DO NOT post anything regarding new units. This thread is specifically for which units stay in and which get thrown out. Another thread will be created regarding new units when this thread has fulfilled it's purpose.

3. Suggestions to change unit names and recruitment are allowed though, since many units have wrong names and recruitment in vanilla.

Check this thread regularly for updates, I'll try to post all the factions up ASAP. For now let's start with Egypt.

Egypt (The Ptolemaic Empire)

Spoiler

Peasants
Nubian Spearmen - Stays in. Will be an AOR unit later
Nile Spearmen
Desert Axemen
Pharaoh's Guard
Slingers - I think they should stay, unless historical evidence goes against it
Skirmishers - Stay, Native auxiliaries
Bowmen
Pharaoh's Bowmen
Desert Cavalry
Nubian Cavalry - Did the Nubians have cavalry? If so, same as Nubian Infantry
Nile Cavalry
Camel Archers - Camels were not used in warfare at this time (unless someone has evidence)
Egyptian Chariots
Egyptian Charot Archers
Egyptian Chariot General
Egyptian Cavalry General
Onagers - Keep Onagers in game or no? As far as I know, only Rome used them and it was later during the Empire.
Heavy Onagers

Julii, Brutii, Scipii, Senate (The Roman Republic)

Spoiler

Peasants
Town Watch - Should be named Vigiles and only recruitable after Marian Reforms
Hastati
Principes
Triarii
Auxilia
Early Legionary Cohort
Early Legionary First Cohort
Legionary Cohort - No reason for them
Legionary First Cohort - No Reason for them
Praetorian Cohort Was more of a political group than anything
Urban Cohort A unit that is not necessary
Arcani
Samnite Gladiators - Rebels Only
Mirmillo Gladiators - Rebels Only
Velite Gladiators - Rebels Only
Velites
Light Auxilia
Roman Archers - Should be called Sagitarii and made an AOR unit for Rome
Archer Auxilia
Equites
Cavalry Auxilia
Roman Cavalry - Should be named to Alae Cavalry or something similar
Legionary Cavalry
Praetorian Cavalry
War Dogs
Incendiary Pigs
Roman General - Needs model changed to Equites model
Armoured Roman General
Ballistas
Repeating Ballistas
Scorpions Cause a siege Bug where AI will not be able to do anything except sit outside the wall.
Onagers - Don't know if they were used enough to keep in
Heavy Onagers

The Auxilia units should have an AOR. For example Cavalry Auxilia should not be able to be recruited in Gaul but in Syria or Numidia.

Carthage (The Republic of Carthage)

Spoiler

Peasants
Town Militia
Iberian Infantry - AOR limited to Iberia Only; Rename to Caetrati Infantry?
Libyan Spearmen - AOR limited to North Africa Only
Poeni Infantry - AOR limited to Punic Cities Only
Sacred Band - AOR limited to Carthage Only
Slingers - Necessary?
Skirmishers - Necessary?
Round Shield Cavalry - AOR limited to Iberia; Rename to Iberian Light Cavalry
Long Shield Cavalry - AOR limited to Africa; Rename to Libyan Cavalry
Sacred Band Cavalry - AoR limited to Carthage Only
General's Bodyguard
General's Armoured Bodyguard
Elephants
War Elephants
Armoured Elephants - Any proof of these existing?
Onagers
Heavy Onagers

Macedon (The Antigonid Kingdom)

Spoiler

Peasants
Militia Hoplites - Levy Hoplites
Levy Pikemen - Deuteroi
Phalanx Pikemen - Pezhetairoi
Royal Pikemen - Asthetairoi
Peltasts
Archers
Light Lancers - Sarissophoroi
Greek Cavalry - Prodromoi
Macedonian Cavalry - Xystophoroi
Companion Cavalry
General's Bodyguard
General's Armoured Bodyguard
Ballistas
Onagers
Heavy Onagers

Seleucids (The Seleucid Empire)

Spoiler

Peasants
Militia Hoplites - Levy Hoplites
Levy Pikemen - Deuteroi
Phalanx Pikemen - Pezhetairoi
Silver Shield Pikemen - Agyraspides
Silver Shield Legionaries - Thorakitai?
Peltasts
Archers
Militia Cavalry - Hippokontasai (something like that haha)
Greek Cavalry - Prodromoi
Companion Cavalry
Cataphracts
Scythed Chariots
General's Bodyguard
General's Armoured Bodyguard
Elephants
War Elephants
Armoured Elephants
Onagers

Greeks (The Greek City States)

Spoiler

Peasants
Militia Hoplites - Levy Hoplites
Hoplites
Armoured Hoplites - Elite Hoplites
Spartan Hoplites
Peltasts
Archers
Heavy Peltasts - Thureophoroi
Militia Cavalry - Hippakontasai
Greek Cavalry - Prodromoi
Incendiary Pigs
General's Bodyguard
General's Armoured Bodyguard
Ballistas
Onagers
Heavy Onagers

Parthia (Parthians)

Spoiler

Peasants
Eastern Infantry - Sparabara; should be AOR unit
Hillmen - Should be AOR unit
Slingers
Archers
Horse Archers
Persian Horse Archers - Parthian Horse Archers
Cataphracts
Camel Cataphracts
Eastern General
Armoured Eastern General
War Elephants - Only recruitable in India as AOR
Onagers

Pontus (The Kingdom of Pontus)

Spoiler

Peasants
Eastern Infantry - Sparabara; should be an AOR unit
Hillmen - Should be an AOR unit
Phalanx Pikemen - Pezoi
Bronze Shield Pikemen - Chalkaspides
Peltasts
Archers
Pontic Light Cavalry - Eastern Light Cavalry
Pontic Heavy Cavalry - Eastern Cavalry
Cappadocian Cavalry - Should be limited to Cappadocia only
Scythed Chariots
Chariot Archers - Yes or no??
Eastern General
Armoured Eastern General
Onagers

Armenia (The Kingdom of Armenia)

Spoiler

Peasants
Eastern Infantry - Sparabara; Should be an AOR unit
Hillmen - Should be an AOR unit
Heavy Spearmen
Armenian Legionaries - Imitation Legionaries
Peltasts
Archers
Horse Archers
Cataphract Archers
Cataphracts
Eastern General
Eastern Armoured General
Onagers

Numidia

Spoiler

Peasants
Desert Infantry - Should Be an Arabian Unit not Numidian
Numidian Legionaries - Imitation Legionaries
Numidian Javelinmen
Slingers
Archers
Numidian Cavalry
Numidian Camel Riders
Long Shield Cavalry - Numidian Noble Cavalry? Same unit is used by Spain and Carthage..
General's Bodyguard
General's Armoured Bodyguard
Onagers

Gaul (Gauls)

Spoiler

Barbarian Peasants
Warband
Swordsmen
Chosen Swordsmen
Naked Fanatics - Gaesetae
Druids - Could act as an officer accompanying troops into battle Will be made an ancillary
Barbarian Cavalry
Barbarian Noble Cavalry
War Hounds
Barbarian Warlord
Barbarian Chosen Warlord

Britons (Celtic Tribes)

Spoiler

Barbarian Peasants
Warband
Swordsmen
Chosen Swordsmen
Woad Warriors - Should be limited to Britain only
Druids - Could be an officer accompanying troops into battle Will be made an ancillary
Slingers
Head Hurlers
War Hounds
British Light Chariots - Britain AOR Only; Britannic Chariots (needs javelinmen instead of archers)
British Heavy Chariots
Barbarian Warlord - Will need to be changed to a cavalry unit

Germans (Germans)

Spoiler

Barbarian Peasants
Screeching Women - Could be officer that accompanies the units on the battlefield since German Women attended battles
Berserkers - Historical or not?
Night Raiders - Historical or not?
Axemen
Chosen Axemen - Historical or not?
Spear Warband
Naked Fanatics - Gaul Only
Skirmisher Warband
Chosen Archer Warband - Huntsmen or something better
War Hounds
Barbarian Cavalry
Barbarian Noble Cavalry
Gothic Cavalry - Better Name?
Barbarian Warlord
Barbarian Chosen Warlord

Dacia (Geto-Dacians)

Spoiler

Barbarian Peasants
Warband
Chosen Swordsmen
Falxmen
Naked Fanatics - Gaul Only
Archer Warband
Chosen Archer Warband - Huntsmen or Better Name
War Hounds
Barbarian Cavalry
Barbarian Noble Cavalry
Barbarian Warlord
Barbarian Chosen Warlord
Ballistas
Onagers

Scythia (Sarmatians)

Spoiler

Barbarian Peasants
Axemen
Archer Warband
Chosen Archer Warband
War Hounds
Barbarian Cavalry
Scythian Horse Archers - Sarmatian Horse Archers; AOR to Steppes Only
Scythian Nobles - Sarmatian Nobles
Scythian Noble Archers - Sarmatian Noble Archers
Scythian Noble Women
Head Hunting Maidens
Barbarian Warlord
Barbarian Chosen Warlord
Onagers

Spain (Iberians)

Spoiler

Peasants
Town Militia
Iberian Infantry - Caetrati Infantry
Scutarii
Bull Warriors
Naked Fanatics - Gaul Only
Slingers
Skirmishers
Round Shield Cavalry - Iberian Light Cavalry
Long Shield Cavalry - Iberian Cavalry
General's Bodyguard
General's Armoured Bodyguard
Onagers

Thrace (Illyrians)

Spoiler

Peasants
Militia Hoplites - Yes or No?
Phalanx Pikemen
Bastarnae - AOR Unit
Falxmen
Peltasts
Archers
Militia Cavalry
Greek Cavalry - Ippiko
General's Bodyguard
General's Armoured Bodyguard
Onagers

Rebels & Mercenaries

Spoiler

Peasants (All Cultures)
Barbarian Peasants
Town Watch
Town Militia
Eastern Infantry - Sparabara
Warband
Militia Hoplites - Levy Hoplites
Iberian Infantry - Caetrati Infantry
Druids
Hastati
Naked Fanatics - Gaesetae
Samnite Gladiators
Mirmillo Gladiators
Velite Gladiators
Judean Zealots
Skirmishers (Egypt)
Skirmishers (Iberia)
Numidian Javelinmen
Peltasts
Velites
Heavy Peltasts - Thureophoroi
Bowmen
Archers (Eastern)
Archer Warband
Round Shield Cavalry - Iberian Light Cavalry
Greek Cavalry - Prodromoi
Barbarian Cavalry
Equites
Long Shield Cavalry - Iberian Cavalry
British Heavy Chariots - Britannic Chariots
Barbarian Noble Cavalry
Pontic Heavy Cavalry - Eastern Cavalry
Egyptian Chariots
Militia Cavalry - Hippakontasai or whatever it is
Horse Archers
Scythian Horse Archers - Sarmatian Horse Archers
Numdian Cavalry
Amazon Chariots
General's Bodyguard (Greek)
General's Bodyguard (Carthage)
Rebel General (Roman)
Rebel General (Eastern)
Rebel General (Barbarian)
Barbarian Warlord
Egyptian Chariot General
Thracian Mercenaries
Cilician Pirates
Samnite Mercenaries
Spanish Mercenaries - Iberian Mercenaries
Barbarian Mercenaries
Eastern Mercenaries
Mercenary Hoplites
Bastarnae Mercenaries
Libyan Mercenaries
Mercenary Peltasts - Mercenary Thureophoroi
Illyrian Mercenaries
Rhodian Slingers
Balearic Slingers
Cretan Archers
Arab Cavalry
Bedouin Warriors
Barbarian Cavalry Mercenaries
Sarmatian Mercenaries
Scythian Mercenaries
Numidian Mercenaries
Bedouin Archers
Mercenary War Elephants

[Bercor]

Well, if we want to go with historical accuracy, will have to redo completely the Ptolemaic roster. It's, by far, the most unhistorical roster in the game.

[ahowl11]

Ptolemies updated according to how I think it should be. Subject to change. Will put up more factions shortly.

[ahowl11]

Every Faction with Every unit has been listed. Please read through and post your thoughts and ideas.

[Sigma]

Ptolemies should have African Elephants and War Elephants recruitable in Meroe or Axum? There were a couple of recorded battles of Egypt using Elephants. Also the Carthaginians and Egyptians used African Elephants (obviously) which were smaller and faster than then the Indian Elephants used by Parthia and the Seleucids. But the Indian Elephants were more durable and supposedly the African Elephants couldn't stand the smell and sounds of the Indian Elephants.

Also I can't remember where I read it but Parthians did use elephants, but not on a large scale like the other ancient empires did. Maybe have them only recruitable from one settlement like Taxila for the Parthians?

If you add Beserkers take away the Beserker ability as it is over powered and broken. You can literally take out multiple units with a unit in "beserk mode".

Both Greeks and Romans used Ballistas and Romans used Onagers. I'm against giving every faction onagers since that was Rome's thing. They're known for their siege engineering and other factions getting that would steal the thunder from Rome.

The druids should be ditched all together.

[ahowl11]

I'm keeping Elephants and War Elephants but Armoured Elephants are the ones in question.
The game incorrectly uses the African Elephant for the Seleucids when there is an Indian Elephant model/texture available, that will be fixed.
Okay, I'll keep the Parthian War Elephants as AOR.

Berserkers will be nerfed.
Okay, but I am still iffy on even the Romans having them. How often were they used? If only a few times, what's the point of having them in you know?

Yeah, I might get rid of the Druids all together but I thought it might be cool to have them as an officer. If it's not historical I can leave them out but I thought they accompanied troops into battle?

[Fëanáro]

I'm keeping Elephants and War Elephants but Armoured Elephants are the ones in question.
The game incorrectly uses the African Elephant for the Seleucids when there is an Indian Elephant model/texture available, that will be fixed.
Okay, I'll keep the Parthian War Elephants as AOR.

Berserkers will be nerfed.
Okay, but I am still iffy on even the Romans having them. How often were they used? If only a few times, what's the point of having them in you know?

Yeah, I might get rid of the Druids all together but I thought it might be cool to have them as an officer. If it's not historical I can leave them out but I thought they accompanied troops into battle?

You could have druids as ancillaries.

[Fëanáro]

I would also advise you to get rid of (Or nerf) the more powerful "native" Roman cavalry units. They should have auxiliaries and mercenaries as their high-tier cavalry units, like they did historically. Because in vanilla, you had jarring things like Roman Cavalry being better than their counterparts from every faction (Which was a serious problem for all Roman units).

[Bercor]

Ptolemaic Empire: I'd get rid of nubian cavalry and only mantain the infantry. The slingers and the skirmishers would need a reskin.

Rome: Seems good. I'd only change the armoured general shield to a round one.

Carthage: Good. I'd left the slingers and the skirmishers.

Antigonid Kingdom: Good.

Seulecid Empire: I've seen some modern depictions of seleucid armoured elephants and most mods (europa barbarorum and roma surrectum for example) use them. Personally, I would do the same.

Greek City States: Good. Make Spartan hoplites an AOR unit.

Parthia: Good.

Pontus: I'd ditch the chariot archers.

Armenia: Good.

Numidia: Good.

Gauls: Give them slingers and archers.

Britons: Good.

Germans: I'd ditch the screeching woman. I don't like the ideia of them as officers. I know they acompanied the soldiers to battle, but, as a rule, they didn't fight, they remain in the background encouraging the men.  Get rid of bersekers, chosen axeman and gothic cavalry. The first because they were vikings, the second because the germans didn't use almost any axes, the third because there's already a germanic noble cavalry and that's enough. Also, I'd change the night riders axe for a spear and the axeman for a cub. The chosen archers should be replaced by a light archer unit.

Dacia: The chosen archers should be replaced by a light archer unit.

Scythia: I'd ditch the chosen archers.

Iberians: No General's Armoured Bodyguard. Otherwise, good.

Illyrians: Militia hoplites replaced with illyrian hoplites. No General's Armoured Bodyguard.

Mercenaries/Rebels: Good.

In regards to the onager question, I'm personally againt all tipes of artillery except the roman scorpion, since with was the only one that was actually used in a field battle. I also think that the manner onagers and ballistas destroy walls in this game is highly unrealistic, so I wouldn't use them. But, if they have to remain for gameplay reasons I would the  give the onagers to the romans to, as Sigma said, represent their engineering ability.

[ahowl11]

In regards to the Roman Cavalry, their name will be changed to Alae Cavalry similar to RTRPE and with their stats being adjusted in the new EDU, they should not be as powerful.

Okay let's ditch Chosen Archers altogether.
Gothic Cavalry will go too.
Pontic Chariots? I'm not sure yet. RTRPE has them, but other mods don't.
I thought the Germans used Axemen?

I'll get rid of Screeching Women and Druids. Feanaro, great idea, we can make Druids an ancillary.

Regarding Siege Weapons: I'm against Scorpions for this reason:

Then, there's also the annoying bug which forces besieging AI to just sit in the field outside city walls if they have a scorpion in their army stack. The only solution to that seems to fast forward until the timer runs out [unless you have sufficient garrison troops to face the AI in the field; but then you wouldn't allow the siege to take place anyway]. I tried to fix the bug by giving scorpion missiles a small damage to walls, hoping that the AI would waste their ammo and proceed with the attack. Did not work, they're still just sitting in the field.

- Slaists from TWC

I'd rather not keep Onagers, but Ballistas only.

[b257]

I agree with Bercor for the most part. I do think the Seleucids should have armored elephants, I mean I have seen them in modern illustrations and texts, so maybe they should be included.

[ahowl11]

Okay, sounds good to me. What about Carthage? I'd think that they wouldn't have them due to the fact that they used African Elephants

[Fëanáro]

Any "Gothic" units should go. Goths aren't going to be around for some centuries.

[Bercor]

What about Carthage? I'd think that they wouldn't have them due to the fact that they used African Elephants

Yes, Carthage shouldn't have armoured elephants like in vannila, only war elephants.

In regards to the Roman Cavalry, their name will be changed to Alae Cavalry similar to RTRPE and with their stats being adjusted in the new EDU, they should not be as powerful.

Okay let's ditch Chosen Archers altogether.
Gothic Cavalry will go too.

Good.

Pontic Chariots? I'm not sure yet. RTRPE has them, but other mods don't.

Chariots with archers were outdated in this time, they were very vulnerable, dependent of the terrain and an easy prey to light cavalry. All and all, they seem to me rather impractical and should go out.

I thought the Germans used Axemen?

Actually, no, that's a myth (probably inspired in the vikings). The two most common weapons between the germanic people were spears and cubs. The nobles that could afford used swords. An axe would be rather rare, let alone one unit composed exclusively by axeman.

I'll get rid of Screeching Women and Druids. Feanaro, great idea, we can make Druids an ancillary.

Excellent ideia.

Regarding Siege Weapons: I'm against Scorpions for this reason:

Then, there's also the annoying bug which forces besieging AI to just sit in the field outside city walls if they have a scorpion in their army stack. The only solution to that seems to fast forward until the timer runs out [unless you have sufficient garrison troops to face the AI in the field; but then you wouldn't allow the siege to take place anyway]. I tried to fix the bug by giving scorpion missiles a small damage to walls, hoping that the AI would waste their ammo and proceed with the attack. Did not work, they're still just sitting in the field.

- Slaists from TWC

I'd rather not keep Onagers, but Ballistas only.

Ah, ok, didn't knew about that bug. In that case I'd ditch all artillery, since ballistas are impractical in the field and rather pointless in a siege against a settlement with more than a wodden palisade. Do what you think is best.

[Jubal]

I don't know, but I'm willing to place a non-monetary bet that you could fool RTW into thinking that scorpions were ballistae (thus solving the AI issue) whilst having them keep the look & functionality of scorpions.