Author Topic: Discussion: New Faction Units  (Read 58480 times)

Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #135 on: February 26, 2014, 07:47:04 PM »
CARTHAGINIAN MERCENARIES

I also found some mercenaries deployed by Carthage, there you go:

Ligurian Warriors- probably skirmishers, see RTR VII

Greek hoplites- recruited from Sicily and the Peloponnese

Greek Cavalry- medium cavalry bearing spears, like hippeis

Gallic swordsmen- see above

Elymi Ekdromoi (AOR Western Sicily) - spearmen drawn from the native Elymians (see RTR VII) NO MERCENARIES

Campanian spearmen- on RTR VII they were called Hoplomachi Campani

Celtiberian mercenaries- probably a mixture of Iberian Scutarii and Gallic swordsmen?

Mauri mercenaries, as:

- Mauri cavalry, similar to the Numidians, maybe not as strong, mounted skirmishers
- Mauri iaculatores, the iacula was the national weapon of ''Morocco'', javelinmen (it seems there was something special about their javelins, but I don't know what exactly it was. The Romans also deployed Equites Mauri during the imperial time so they must have been quite useful)

Obviously both are experts in the desert

By the way, Libyans and Iberians were actually recruited BOTH as mercenaries (in ports in our mod) and levies (AOR units in barracks)

Also, another general note, Gallic mercenaries often betrayed their employers (more often than other mercenaries) and just ran away, sacked the land and then offered their services to someone else. Perhaps there is a way to portray this inside the game mechanics?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 11:53:09 PM by Mausolos of Caria »
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Bercor

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #136 on: February 26, 2014, 07:51:22 PM »
Great findings, Mausolos.

Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #137 on: February 26, 2014, 08:21:56 PM »
And finally, the Greeks. I will split this into the different states and their specialities. Obviously everyone had hoplites, slingers, akontistai (psiloi, note they don't have shields, in difference to peltasts), peltasts, Ekdromoi (?), Thureophoroi (likely), toxotai/archers (likely) Prodromoi and hippeis. If a unit is missing I will mention that.

SPARTA:

Periokoi hoplitai- see RTR VII, perioikoi fighting as hoplites

Helot javelinmen- see RTR VII

Helot archers- see RTR VII

Helot slingers- see RTR VII

Neodamōdeis- freed helots that already received their own estates in the 4th century, fighting as hoplites after the defeats to Thebes

Krypteia (Kryptoi) - a teenage garrison unit (again it would be good to show that in the faces/stature, 16- 20 years old)/ ''secret police'', probably equipped with a short sword and a shield, and maybe a javelin

Skiritai- flexible elite hoplites acting as an advanced guard- see RTR VII

Spartiates (homoioi ''The equals)- THIS IS SPAAAARTAAAAAAA. Very few, but the best of the best, at least 20 years old after having gone through the agoge (even though a Macedonian phalanx could overcome them in a frontal charge) again we could borrow them from RTR VII I'd hope

After reforms:

Mercenary cavalry (probably Greeks), like hippeis, since Sparta does NOT have regular citizen cavalry (hippeis), but maybe small detachments of Prodromoi for reconnaisance

,,Tarentine Cavalry'', also mercenaries after Kleomenes

Spartan Pezoi [Macedonian Phalanx] (after reforms)- consisting of citizens, perioikoi and even helots

Euzonoi- light infantry made up of helots and perioikoi, probably like psiloi/akontistai (stronger version of helot javelinmen)

Katapeltai- a special kind of artillery deployed by Machanidas at the battle of Mantineia in 207 BC and later on by Nabis. They fired arrows over huge distances and completely wiped out the Achaian thorakitai at Mantineia (similar to Scorpions?)

Cretan archers (mercenaries)- deployed by Nabis


THE ACHAIAN LEAGUE

While they were good soldiers, they always had a lack of money ;)

Surely used Ekdroimoi in big numbers as their League citizen levies

Hippeis- Philopoemen said they were in a very poor state before his reforms. Nobles they might have been, but an elite they were not. Perhaps we just make their hippeis weaker than others and then have them a bit stronger than the normal ones after the reforms, naming them ''Hippeis (reformed)'' or so

Epilektoi- Hand- picked Citizen guard, very few, but very good. An elite similar to the Spartiates or Thebes' Sacred Band, although not THAT famous and feared

Thorakitai - should be clear, their rout at Mantineai seems to demonstrate they weren't an elite

And now the mercenaries introduced by the reforms of Philopoemen, who probably also added phalangites:

(Achaian Pezhetairoi, see above, no mercenaries but I should put them here additionally)

Thracian cavalry (mercenaries)- see above

Cretan archers- see above

Mercenary peltasts - well, yeah, mercenary peltasts  ;D

Illyrian Infantry- see Macedon

''Tarentine Cavalry'' - they were better than Prodromoi I guess

And last but not least an interesting unit introduced by 171 BC, probably earlier: Achaian Ephebes (Between 16- 20 years old, I hope we could make their faces look younger) styled in the ''Cretan style''- so basically archers with Cretan hats, even though they could also have a melee spear (because ''Cretan'' sometimes only meant light infantry, but not archers especially)

I suggest calling them ''Neocretan Ephebes'' or something like that


RHODES

As mentioned before, Rhodian slingers obviously

Carian warriors/light infantry

Cretan archers (standing mercenaries) - like Macedon, Rhodes signed a deal with Hierapytna during the late 3rd century so they could recruit archers and officers on Crete, and that Hierapytnans would not fight for an enemy faction (how this fits together with the Macedonian recruitment and the following war between Macedon and Rhodes remains to be figured out. Perhaps only the other city, Eleutherae, continued delivering mercenaries to the Antigonids, but who knows)

Various Artillery


CRETE

Cretan archers obviously  ;D Regular recruitment this time

Now this might come as a surprise, but the Cretans also hired mercenaries. Probably as part of a deal with Rhodes, they got access to the Rhodian peraia in Asia, so...

Carian warriors (mercenaries)

Cretan citizen hoplites- combined with the archers and light infantry they numbered at 24 000 men and could defeat a Roman army, so I agree with the idea of special Cretan hoplites


SYRACUSE

Various artillery devices like those constructed by Archidemes (for example the Lithobolos, a big stone throwing machine)

Also, Katapeltai- see Sparta

Peltophoroi- Sicel peltasts, perhaps ligher than Greek peltasts but more skilled in rough terrain

Sicel Spearmen (AOR Sicelia/Eastern Sicely) - see RTR VII (similar to Ekdromoi)

Elymi Ekdromoi (AOR Elymia/Western Sicily) - spearmen drawn from the native Elymians (see RTR VII)

Thorakitai- See above

Syracusan Hippeis - stronger than the normal ones

I have no idea if they also had phalangites later on, though. Couldn't find that out sadly

Mercenaries of Syracuse

Campanian spearmen/hoplites- see above (hopplomachi or whatever, see RTR VII)

Oscan swordsmen- see RTR VII

Iberian swordsmen (oh yes) - see above

Etruscan hoplites- see RTR VII

Bruttian swordsmen- see RTR VII

Lucanian spearmen- see RTR VII

Libyan light infantry- see Carthage

Roman deserters (later)- equipped like hastati

Perhaps Syracuse could also get the mercenary port.


And finally (!!!!) ATHENS

I could find out more than I thought here. Forget my earlier statement on their very few mercenaries...

Thracian infantry (mercenaries)- see above

''Tarentine Cavalry'' (mercenaries)- proven by a game called after them in the Theseian games later on

Peripoloi - perhaps my favourite new unit, which will be difficult to portray. Originally a defensive militia formed of the Athenian ephebes (between 18 and 20 years old) . By the 4th century the Athenians had added Argive and Plataiaian officers among them, so the boys would only form half of a regiment. Probably every 18-year-old had to sign up with them for a year or so and to learn his soldier duties, so that these men could form the garrison of Athens in times of war. If our moddelers can portray young men with fresh faces (also since they were probably from the nobility) among more experienced officers with scras, that would be brilliant  ;D. They are probably armed in the usual traditional hoplite style, maybe with Iphicratean influences

Metoikoi hoplites- like the Perioikoi hoplites for Sparta, made up of Metoikoi, foreign Greeks living in the city

Athenian citizen hoplites- as ahowl had planned before, we could give them a nice extra model

Iphicratean peltasts/hoplites/phalangites- still not sure about them, should anyone find out more about them, especially during our timeframe, then that would be very welcome. Or just see post 128 for description


BOIOTIAN LEAGUE

Nothing special really, since it is called a hoplite country, we could give them their own unit, ''Boiotian hoplites'', it should not be hard to find Boiotian symbols for their shields etc.


BOSPORAN EMPIRE

Bosporan Thureophoroi - in a Sycthian style

Bosporan hoplites- can thrown darts

Sarmatian cavalry- heavy cavalry

Taurian skirmishers - Taurian (> Iphigenia in Tauris) javelinmen or darth throwers. Tauris is the Crimea

Scythian horse archers (mercenaries)

I'm a bit speculative here, but we have no other option for the Bosporans.


MASSALIA

Thorakitai (later on)- see above

Ligurian Warriors- see above

Massiliote sailors- archers with Gallic influence. Being creative here  :P


THESSALIAN LEAGUE

Thessalian cavalry- see Macedon


AITOLIAN LEAGUE

I agree with what you suggested before:

Aitolian peltasts- stronger than the normal ones, good at ambushes

Aitolian cavalry- probably more flexible and faster than Hippeis

Aitolian slingers- see peltasts

Cretan archers (mercenaries)- I really said enough on them by now :D

,,Tarentine cavalry'' (mercenaries)- see above


If possible, they should get some forts at the start.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 01:07:09 AM by Mausolos of Caria »
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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #138 on: February 26, 2014, 08:23:21 PM »
Thanks, Bercor  :) I will eat my dinner now and then edit all post to add the units I had described in the post before, from yesterday.
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ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #139 on: February 26, 2014, 08:39:37 PM »
Very well done. Hellenistic and Greek rosters will be very expansive and diverse :)
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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #140 on: February 26, 2014, 09:24:51 PM »
Cheers! Phew, I've edited all other units I mentioned in last night's post in now, so the Greek roster is complete. Some of my questions  ;D

1. Can we give the Aitolians forts in the mountain passes at the start so they will be hard to conquer?

2. Is it possible to make some units have their soldiers look like teenagers? And is it possible to even mix them with veterans, for the peripoloi?

3. What do you think about implementing the Carthaginian ''mercenary port'' also for the Ptolemaic Empire (only in Alexandria) , Syracuse (only in Syrakousai) and perhaps Rhodes (only in Rhodos)?

4. I hope I didn't scare anyone by always sticking to the Greek writing instead of the Latin usually used in English  :P

5. Have a look if the Bosporan roster would be okay since it's a bit speculative. Maybe our new expert from Central Asia knows something on them

6. Is there a way to portray the low loyalty of Gallic mercenaries in-game?

7. Sfendonitai or Lithovoloi as names for slingers?

8. What about artillery in general? I think the three big diadoch kingdoms should have ballistas, onagers and maybe we can find more stuff, the Romans should have scorpions, Sparta & Syracuse should have the similar Katapeltes, Syracuse should also get the Lithobolos (it's in RS II, more or less medieval stone catapults) and probably all Greek states should have ballistas. Did I forget any of RTW's artillery?
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ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #141 on: February 26, 2014, 09:33:06 PM »
1. Yes we can test that out
2. It is just give them the Roman City Militia Face. No we cannot mix them but we can include officers
3. I've always had this idea for my other mods so yeah I'd love to try it
4. We will get a good balance for the names
5. I like it, seems accurate
6. There might be. A recruitable general with a script attached to him where a few warbands are spawned once he is created. Just give him low loyalty and if he revolts, whatever units are with him would revolt as well. Just an initial idea.
7. Ummm. Slingers :)
8. We will worry about artillery last.

For now I think it would be wise for ALL of us to do some mod research and find the unit models/textures that we could use for all of these units Romans through Greeks. That way we know what we are using and how much space we will be needing in the DMB and EDU. We must be wise with our space. We want as many units as possible, but we only have so much room to work with. Utilizing models to represent more than one unit is the key. For example, Hastati and Principes don't need their own model. They can share one, all they need is different textures.

Also, we need someone who is an expert on the following cultures:
Eastern - Pontus, Armenia, Persia, India, Arabia
Celtic - Gauls, Britons, Celt-Iberians, Galatians
Balkans - Thracians, Illyrians, Dacians
Germanic Peoples
Iberians
Numidians

We have Rome, Carthage, the Greek factions and Nomads covered. I suggest you all give me names of people of who I could contact for help with the above cultures.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 09:40:22 PM by ahowl11 »
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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #142 on: February 26, 2014, 09:53:32 PM »
1. Good!
2. Don't they look a bit... angled?  ;D
3. Cool!
4. Alright  :)
5. Thanks ;)
6. Yes that might actually work, on MTW2 there are betrayals all the time and Gauls would fight under their own leaders anyway
7. Haha okay
8. Okay dokay.

As for the Lithobolos, Leif Inge Ree Petersen says the katapeltai (not katapeltes, sorry) were the same as Lithoboloi, only a more literary name. In the Byzantine army the bigger ones are called petroboloi, Lithoboloi must therefore be smaller and could be put on walls. The name petroboloi already existed by the time of Alexander (siege of Tyre) but I'm not sure the distinction into smaller and bigger stone throwers is the same. I would just stay with stone throwers (Lithobolos/oi) and arrow shooters (Katapelta/ai).

I also read about guys called Korynephoroi from Sikyon (in the Achaian territory by the middle of the 3rd century) who fought as clubmen and apparently the Syracusan kyllyrioi fought in a similar way. Anyone who read my article on Gelon will know the latter were the Syracusan ''helots''. While they were most likely abolished (since Gelon did so and I don't think they would be reintroduced in the same way) both kind of warriors's existence seems unlikely by the Hellenistic age, but perhaps some Sicels still fought with clubs? I mean, it was also popular in the middle ages... but probably this is too archaic.

Edit, just saw your edit. I guess most phalangites and hoplites can use the same models, and hopefully we can borrow some models from RTR VII (I always marked that).

I also researched Pontos today, and Cappadocia & Bithynia, I should get a full Pontos roster together, the other two seem to be more common ''Eastern'' armies. Also, Montrose told me he'll join up here soon and he can help with the Celtic people. I will also text cold_mac again for the Germanic peoples and I think I could work out Armenia and Persia as well.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 10:01:03 PM by Mausolos of Caria »
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ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #143 on: February 26, 2014, 10:09:33 PM »
Sounds good! Contact your friend who knows about the Iberians as well. The Numidians shouldn't be too hard to cover
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Bercor

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #144 on: February 26, 2014, 10:19:36 PM »
There's a pretty easy way to simulate the low loyalty of gallic mercenaries, just give them low morale and it's pratically the same thing (in-game meaning).

Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #145 on: February 26, 2014, 10:31:12 PM »
But not in the campaign, is it? It would be good if they could rebel and change sides, becoming brigants or joining your enemy.

I already texted my friend from Galicia, too  ;) I guess I could also do Numidia as soon as we need them.
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Bercor

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #146 on: February 26, 2014, 10:35:34 PM »
It's possible to give them low morale in battle, when your men are not loyal they rout more easily. In regards to the other question, maybe, but only through a script (say, when a army has six gallic mercenaries units and suffers a defeat, the mercenaries change to the enemy side).

b257

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #147 on: February 26, 2014, 10:54:36 PM »
Will you be doing a unit list for Baktria as well?

ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #148 on: February 26, 2014, 11:00:15 PM »
They are part of the Hellenic Kingdoms
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b257

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #149 on: February 26, 2014, 11:25:52 PM »
They are part of the Hellenic Kingdoms

Ah, Missed that sorry :P