Author Topic: Battle Mechanics  (Read 3116 times)

Bercor

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Battle Mechanics
« on: March 06, 2014, 06:32:32 PM »
Right now the battle mechanics are pretty good, thanks to the amazing work of phalanx_man. However, there's two things that, in my opinion, need to change. Let's go, then:

- Troops speed - Right now, the infantry troops move way to fast. They almost look cavalry, galloping their way into battle, if you are far enough. The speed extremely unrealistic and should be toned down.

- Missile fire - It needs to be buffed. In the current state, all missile units, except javelins, are useless against armoured units and unhelpful againt light armoured/non armoured ones.
Now, I'm not a fan of the opposite extreme, with the archers/slingers dominating the battlefield (since that's very unhistorical). However, there's a middle term that I think we should try to achieve.
Ideally, the missile fire should cause more fatigue than casualties, but I don't think we can simulate this with RTW engine.

Feel free to share your opinion.

b257

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Re: Battle Mechanics
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2014, 08:10:24 PM »
I thought Slingers were historically rather deadly. I mean I think I recall a roman general making extensive use of slingers against Parthian armored cavalry and doing rather well as a result.

Bercor

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Re: Battle Mechanics
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2014, 08:25:03 PM »
Don't get me wrong, slingers, and other missile units, were capable of causing casualties, especially professional ones, like Balearic or Rhodian slingers, however, one can hardly say that they ruled the battlefield.
Right now, an unit of Balearic slingers can't kill a unit of Numidian cavalry (lightly armoured) using all it's ammo, and that's just wrong...

Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Battle Mechanics
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2014, 08:33:48 PM »
On Rome II slingers are extremely strong against Phalanx, but otherwise useless, which is a tad...strange to say the least. I've to agree with both points, in vanilla RTW slingshots are more like rain drops than deadly missiles. They should of course be effective against lightly armoured troops, especially Rhodian or Balearic slingers.
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Bercor

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Re: Battle Mechanics
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2014, 09:18:11 PM »
Mausolos, what's your opinion about the hoplites usage of the spear? Overhand or underhand?

Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Battle Mechanics
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2014, 11:35:10 PM »
On Slingers:

I did some research and came up with these results: The furthest range of lead slingshots (which were used by the funditores, for example) was 400m, it could hit a target most accurately at a distance of less than 100ms. Apart from experienced slingers like Rhodians or Cretans most preferred a wide fire of many slingshots on defenders on walls or close formations without too much aiming, though. Roman slingers also used two main types of slingshots, oval ones and spindle- like ones. Most slingshots weigh between 30g and 70g.
Persian slingers (which I also suggested as a unit and which might be similar to all Eastern slingers) still used stone slingshots by the time of Xenophon, while Rhodians already used lead. The Persian slingshots had a greater impact, but the Rhodians had twice their range, which was a big advantage obviously. Also, slingers should have a LOT of ammunition- we have proofs for both Rhodian and Roman slingers that they produced new slingshots DURING the battle. Not so useful for the mod, but also interesting is that letters for their home cities, names of the soldiers, ironical or even sexual jokes or emblems of the gods and godesses were inscripted on many slingshots (of course these would have been produced before the battle).

As for the classical hoplite phalanx: Generally it should be noted that men stood about 5-6 feet apart from each other (only 4 feet in the Macedonian phalanx) but that a phalanx and the hoplite shield were also useful in loose formations (as shown by Greek marines who used the same equipment despite not being able to fight in formations). A usual hoplite phalanx would fight between 16 and no less than 24 ranks deeps, because keeping the formation together and preventing the flight of those fighting in the front was the main target. The Spartans, however, were more confident and mostly fought with a formation only 8 ranks deep. To counter this, the Thebans deployed the Sacred Band at 50 (!) ranks deep at Leuktra.

As for underhand/overhand... I think in the hellenistic period overhand was favoured and RTR VII also used that if I'm not wrong. But actually both were possible:

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Jubal

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Re: Battle Mechanics
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2014, 11:49:54 PM »
Do you literally mean they produced new slings, or just new shot/stones?

And yes, the biggest flaw in most people's imagining of the phalanx is the idea that it was a close-packed shieldwall type thing it seems. Leuctra is a pretty interesting example of unusual tactics, though it was probably partly motivated by a (wholly correct) assessment of Sparta's allies. Once the Spartans had broken under a fifty man deep column charging at them and swamping them, the other Spartan troops just decided it wasn't worth fighting and left (the rest of the Theban line was extremely thin and advanced slowly, so as to avoid the Spartan allies being able to flank the column easily but basically also avoiding the allies starting to fight so they'd just get demoralised once the Spartiates were cut down).  :)
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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Battle Mechanics
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2014, 11:59:39 PM »
Yeah new shots, stones or also making clay or similar materials from mud on the battlefield. You are right about the phalanxes on both sides at Leuktra and the use of double-handed shields by peltasts or the reference to Hypaspists as ''peltasts'' is further proof for these possibilities.
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Alavaria

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Re: Battle Mechanics
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2014, 03:49:27 AM »
Honestly, one thing about javelinmen that is annoying is they tend to not be strong compared to archers (in terms of attack strength) but are short range, and limited in ammo. Thus, it's frequently (in different mods) just something I skip and replace with archers etc.

Some mods have had slingers with shorter range and armor piercing. Which is possible, I guess, though if they were to be made long-range, low-attack stat units with very large ammo reserves that would be interesting, and possibly closer to the way they were used.


Is it possible to use the "fire arrow" mechanic to assign the slingers two different ammo types, the standard is low-power long range, the special use one "fire arrows" is a different projectile that is short range?
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 04:18:04 AM by Alavaria »