Author Topic: Miliband = tool?  (Read 9499 times)

Clockwork

  • Charming Prince of Darkness
  • Citizens
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 2055
  • Karma: 17
  • Bitter? Me? portugal no, I think it's hilarious.
  • Awards Came first in the Summer 2020 Exilian forum pub quiz
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Miliband = tool?
« on: February 07, 2015, 01:06:41 PM »
This isn't technically news but recent events are reinforcing a point. Miliband is a tool.

"We support businesses but will also tax them into oblivion while simultaneously expecting them to bend over and take this extortion and not move to the Maldives" Literal quote from the douchebag himself.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2015, 02:13:05 AM by comrade_general »
Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense.


Jubal

  • Megadux
    Executive Officer
  • Posts: 35627
  • Karma: 140
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2015, 04:03:14 PM »
I don't think they're going to exactly be hit by oblivion or extortion - though I think you're right that businesses scuttling overseas is a very real worry and I'd like to hear better proposals for how we can stop that occurring.
The duke, the wanderer, the philosopher, the mariner, the warrior, the strategist, the storyteller, the wizard, the wayfarer...

Clockwork

  • Charming Prince of Darkness
  • Citizens
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 2055
  • Karma: 17
  • Bitter? Me? portugal no, I think it's hilarious.
  • Awards Came first in the Summer 2020 Exilian forum pub quiz
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2015, 04:17:49 PM »
Stopping it occurring is simple in principle. Don't tax them as high. They're way more inclined to stay if tax was reasonable.
Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense.


Jubal

  • Megadux
    Executive Officer
  • Posts: 35627
  • Karma: 140
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2015, 04:23:16 PM »
The downside of that being that we then don't get revenues from them. :P
The duke, the wanderer, the philosopher, the mariner, the warrior, the strategist, the storyteller, the wizard, the wayfarer...

Clockwork

  • Charming Prince of Darkness
  • Citizens
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 2055
  • Karma: 17
  • Bitter? Me? portugal no, I think it's hilarious.
  • Awards Came first in the Summer 2020 Exilian forum pub quiz
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2015, 04:16:38 PM »
I'd think we'd get more from businesses that then come over here because we have reasonable tax. Also for some reason people think its ok to steal from big businesses anyway which kinda baffles me. If upwards of 50% tax isn't theft then people have issues.
Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense.


Jubal

  • Megadux
    Executive Officer
  • Posts: 35627
  • Karma: 140
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2015, 04:32:07 PM »
I dunno; I'd argue, on the other hand, that once a business or individual is making what they need from their business, and then some, then making excessive amounts of money on top of that is just extortion via the marketplace. I don't think it's in any sense "theft" to get businesses or people whose income is mostly unearned to pay back into the system that:
  • Trains the workforce that's making them the money in the first place
  • Protects them from having their assets or intellectual property stolen and provides a secure means of resolving disputes in contracts
  • Prevents danger from large-scale social unrest by ensuring we don't have too many people living in extreme poverty
  • Provides much of the infrastructure their business relies upon for no up-front charge (roads, power, rail, etc etc)
  • Keeps their workforce in a good and healthy condition to work

Given all that, I have no problem with people being taxed at higher percentages on income they earn above a certain point. They don't need the money, and other people objectively need it more; not only that, but the state can do things with it that individuals can't - efficiently improving infrastructure and living conditions which ultimately leads to higher total productivity, a bigger customer base, and eventually therefore higher earnings.
The duke, the wanderer, the philosopher, the mariner, the warrior, the strategist, the storyteller, the wizard, the wayfarer...

Clockwork

  • Charming Prince of Darkness
  • Citizens
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 2055
  • Karma: 17
  • Bitter? Me? portugal no, I think it's hilarious.
  • Awards Came first in the Summer 2020 Exilian forum pub quiz
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2015, 08:18:53 PM »
How could that be extortion? They make money from people willing to part with it for the good or service offered which is how a free market works well. If something is deemed too expensive, it won't be bought and will become cheaper.

The system does no such things in particular for higher earning businesses than it does for low income ones. Why should those earning more be subsiding the rest? You feel like that have less right to their own money because other people need it more? Why try and be that person then? Whats the point in raising yourself from the lowest where its okay to be average because somebody that has a passion to do what they do is successful and has to subsidise you?
Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense.


Pentagathus

  • King of the Wibulnibs
  • Posts: 2713
  • Karma: 20
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2015, 01:13:18 PM »
How could that be extortion? They make money from people willing to part with it for the good or service offered which is how a free market works well. If something is deemed too expensive, it won't be bought and will become cheaper.
Unless its a necessary commodity like food, water, energy, fuel, transport, housing etc. You know, the sort of things that low earners have to spend the vast majority of their money on.

The system does no such things in particular for higher earning businesses than it does for low income ones. Why should those earning more be subsiding the rest? You feel like that have less right to their own money because other people need it more? Why try and be that person then? Whats the point in raising yourself from the lowest where its okay to be average because somebody that has a passion to do what they do is successful and has to subsidise you?
Well I'm pretty sure Jubal is not advocating complete wealth redistribution or communism so there's still plenty of obvious benefit to earning more. Even if taxes were to be raised for higher earners they would still be higher earners and would still be a hell of a lot more financially secure than middle or low income earners.
If you think the current system doesn't favour higher earning businesses then why do you think the markets are dominated by a very small percentage of these large businesses or corporations? The ability for huge corporations to abuse their power and take advantage of tax evasion/avoidance and corruption is a separate issue from tax rate but its still somewhat relevant I feel.

Clockwork

  • Charming Prince of Darkness
  • Citizens
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 2055
  • Karma: 17
  • Bitter? Me? portugal no, I think it's hilarious.
  • Awards Came first in the Summer 2020 Exilian forum pub quiz
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2015, 06:35:33 PM »
And if it was too expensive those things wouldn't be bought and the market would determine that the prices have to be set lower. Obviously they're not.

Yeah higher earners are more financially secure, some of them could probably take 90% tax hits. That doesn't make it right or fair. Fairness is an flat tax rate for everyone. The markets *are* dominated by large businesses. Which is good. Because they have the ability then to drive market prices which in turn is fairness with people paying what the value of a product is.

The reason tax rate is important here is because with a lower tax rate there would be no need for tax evasion/avoidance.
Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense.


Pentagathus

  • King of the Wibulnibs
  • Posts: 2713
  • Karma: 20
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2015, 11:25:43 PM »
And if it was too expensive those things wouldn't be bought and the market would determine that the prices have to be set lower. Obviously they're not.
Most people can't realistically choose not to buy the things I mentioned, hence why I called them necessary commodities. If these things are too expensive people die of starvation, poor sanitation/common diseases, hypothermia etc. This doesn't happen much here partly because we have some degree of government regulation of these things.

Yeah higher earners are more financially secure, some of them could probably take 90% tax hits. That doesn't make it right or fair. Fairness is an flat tax rate for everyone. The markets *are* dominated by large businesses. Which is good. Because they have the ability then to drive market prices which in turn is fairness with people paying what the value of a product is.
And the large businesses can then determine the value of a product, which many would call unfair. Monopolies are not good for consumers. A flat tax rate would completely portugal our economy (as far as I can see, I must admit I have very little understanding of economics) since we wouldn't be able to actually pay our debt and would have to default. If you made that tax rate high enough to pay off the debt then many lower income earners probably would not be able to afford to live, which I would say is pretty unfair.

The reason tax rate is important here is because with a lower tax rate there would be no need for tax evasion/avoidance.
Theres already no need for it, it still happens. It still would even with a lower tax rate.

Clockwork

  • Charming Prince of Darkness
  • Citizens
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 2055
  • Karma: 17
  • Bitter? Me? portugal no, I think it's hilarious.
  • Awards Came first in the Summer 2020 Exilian forum pub quiz
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2015, 04:48:33 PM »
Value is set by the market (i.e consumers) you can't force a value on something. Monopolies are not inherently anti-consumer (I can go into detail here but we're already way off news and dipping into discussion). No, a flat tax rate would be fine, if you followed what I've been saying to its conclusion, the businesses that avoid the current unreasonable tax (which is a reason to avoid it) would be more likely to pay it. Moreover the individuals that have top accountants to work accounting magic (Jimmy Carr etc) would find that its not worth it anymore. Therefore we'd actually get as much money in total if not more.
Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense.


Pentagathus

  • King of the Wibulnibs
  • Posts: 2713
  • Karma: 20
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2015, 06:43:52 PM »
Value is set by the market (i.e consumers) you can't force a value on something.
As i've already pointed out you cannot choose to not consume certain essential products and so it is very much possible to force a value on these things. For example energy suppliers could choose to increase prices and expect to see very little drop in demand, the reason they don't is because our government would actually be forced to increase regulation of energy prices. A more stark example would be grain speculation (a product of free market) causing artificially high food prices, this isn't a huge problem in the UK but it has caused deaths due to malnutrition world-wide and could cause greater problems here as the developing world grows and demand for dairy and meat increase.
As to a flat tax rate the Adam Smith report back in 2007 admitted that it would cause a £50bn shortfall in revenue and this is a report which was very much pro flat tax.I'm aware this is far from a scientific method but when I looked up the list of states which have implemented flat tax rates I noticed they all happen to have pretty weak economies and often a mixture of high corruption and a very privileged ruling elite. I've yet to see a convincing argument for flat tax that actually holds up to the scrutiny of a real economist, could you provide any sources on sound economic advice for implementing such a system?
As to your belief that large businesses will stop attempting to evade tax is we had a "fair" tax rate I feel you are being incredibly naive. Tax will allways be a significant profit loss to such businesses and so such businesses will always attempt to avoid paying it where they can. A flat tax would likely cause fewer cases of tax evasion but it would go-where near solving the problem and certainly wouldn't make up for the loss in revenue. Although I believe the flat tax rate you are proposing is based on an individual's income tax rather than a business tax rate (?) and if so I guess its not particularly relevant.
Should we start another thread for this shizzle? I'm a  bit reluctant to as I don't have a good understanding of economics and I don't really feel I have the mental energy for learning about it at the moment.

Clockwork

  • Charming Prince of Darkness
  • Citizens
    Voting Member
  • Posts: 2055
  • Karma: 17
  • Bitter? Me? portugal no, I think it's hilarious.
  • Awards Came first in the Summer 2020 Exilian forum pub quiz
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2015, 09:06:27 PM »
Even if you have an absolute monopoly, new businesses can start up which provide these necessities at the true market value. That business will do better than the one that arbitrarily price fixes and so following the money, more competition will enter the market due to the desire to buy at this lower price. I did spend 2 years learning this. I'd draw a diagram but I don't have a scanner.

Hong Kong is an example of where it works. Though, like a fair amount of what I say, the flat tax rate works better the freer the market is. The Adam Smith Institute did say there would be £50bn shortfall for the first two years with a flat rate of 22% (which I'm guessing is the optimal amount), true, however this doesn't take into account the new businesses that would relocate here from the continent, which I'd be confident would make up the difference and then some. Over many years, it'd return in spades. Adam Smith proposal also included people on low income not paying tax.

Actually it becomes harder to avoid tax with a flat tax rate as well as being fairer for large businesses. How do you fit your business into lower tax brackets if there aren't any? Flat tax of business without flat tax of individual income would make for some interesting scenarios where you could lower your tax by putting x amount into a business to be paid to you until you hit a soft cap for personal income and the rest then paid directly to yourself. The reason I mentioned individual tax is because it goes into making a flat tax more cost effective.

My first A-levels were centered around Economics and although my preference is by far micro, I guess enough macro sunk in that I've retained at least a partial interest in it.
Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense.


Pentagathus

  • King of the Wibulnibs
  • Posts: 2713
  • Karma: 20
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2015, 10:49:12 AM »
Even if you have an absolute monopoly, new businesses can start up which provide these necessities at the true market value.
Not necessarily, if that monopoly controls enough of the supply or if the business requires high funds or great degrees of infrastructure to set up then many will be unable or unwilling to start. Generally I'll concede your point here but I'm far more comfortable with a government system for regulating (to a reasonable degree) the price of necessary commodities.

The Adam Smith Institute did say there would be £50bn shortfall for the first two years with a flat rate of 22% (which I'm guessing is the optimal amount), true, however this doesn't take into account the new businesses that would relocate here from the continent, which I'd be confident would make up the difference and then some. Over many years, it'd return in spades. Adam Smith proposal also included people on low income not paying tax.

You seem to be mixing flat income tax proposals with tax on businesses, corporation tax in the UK is only 1% greater for large businesses than small ones and this is going to be lowered so that they are equal anyway, the Adam Smith Institute (and every other source I've looked at) has been regarding flat income tax rates. And I really very much doubt that a group of highly educated economists who are pushing for a flat tax system would fail to take into account the potential gains of a flat tax system when preparing a proposal for that very system. £50bn was quite likely to be their lowest reasonable calculation.
Lower corporation tax can tempt larger international businesses to move over here but it also means we lose revenue from corp tax, it currently makes up a reasonable amount of our national tax income which is not the case for many other european countries since they've cut corp tax to attract these businesses. I feel that a new take on taxing businesses would be better for us than simply lowering corp tax as this has just led to a competition between nations to lower their corp taxes or provide special deals to international businesses.
Hong Kong is not an example for flat tax rate as their tax rate is not actually flat, it is a flat cap but progresses up to this cap. The low and middle earners in HK still pay much less income tax than high earners. HK could be used as an example of low taxes and low public spending but thats a different argument.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 10:55:18 AM by Pentagathus »

Jubal

  • Megadux
    Executive Officer
  • Posts: 35627
  • Karma: 140
  • Awards Awarded for oustanding services to Exilian!
    • View Profile
    • Awards
Re: Re: In the News
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2015, 01:49:34 PM »
I guess one of the main things, Colossus, is that you're totally failing to take into account entry barriers into markets, which in many fields of business totally screw over this idea you have that other companies can *always* swoop in and undercut the current oligopoly or monopoly on prices. You're living in the world of neoclassical economics, which when you consider some of the built in assumptions of those theories is blatantly not the world most of us actually live in.
The duke, the wanderer, the philosopher, the mariner, the warrior, the strategist, the storyteller, the wizard, the wayfarer...