Saka

[xeofox]

The two main problems of nomads:
1) they are nomads
2) irregulars
The first words : do not use horned horses! Horned horses this funeral (and maybe a parade) rite !!!

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Maps from book "AN HISTORICAL ATLAS OF CENTRAL ASIA" YURI BREGEL 2003:

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CENTRAL ASIA AT THE TIME OF ALEXANDER THE GREAT (4TH CENTURY B.C.



3RD-2ND CENTURIES B.C.: PARTHIA, BACTRIA, AND THE YUEZH



1ST CENTURY B.C.—2ND CENTURY A.D.: PARTHIA, THE KUSHANS, THE HAN, AND THE XIONGN

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Why YURI BREGEL maps? As archaeologist I can say the information very fixed. But lot of holes in history. I try to keep not true but the faсts!
All information about the weapons taken from the archaeological data:

Saka (paradraya, tigraxaudā, haumavargā, para Sugdam). All are similar, it is possible to adjusted colors of clothing for  mod). Haomavargа sell narcotic herbs, and t tigraxauda worn on the  head  vertical sharp caps)

Saka Foot Archers (+acinaces or sword orsagaris)
Saka Spearmen (+acinaces or sword orsagaris)
Saka Horse-Archers (+acinaces)
Saka Riders(+acinaces or sword orsagaris)
Saka Armour Horse-Archers (not metal armor), (it same with Saka Nobles)
Saka Heavy Cavalry (not metal armor)
Saka Nobles (Do not use horned horses**)
Saka Late Cataphracts (The armor can be from parhia)
Saka Armored Nobles (not steel armor or partially metal-single cases metal armor and helmet),(Do not use horned horses)
Saka women archer
Saka with javelin

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misc:

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Saka (Persepolis)



1 —saka tigrahauda, 2 — bactrian, 3 — sogdian, 4 — khorezm



Saka warriors army of Xerxes. Reconstruction of the description of Herodotus and archaeological finds.
Left - foot archer; Right - horse archer, armed except the characteristic of the Scythian bow to burn,
and spears, and even chisel, melee weapons designed to pierce armor.



infantryman from Khorezm, Bactrian infantryman; Arian trooper.

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Massagetae
Similar to Saka culture (probably more accurate weapons and clothing and first who started urbanization by assimilation)
...

Armor of steppe tribes (a few cases) is applicable for the nobility!

It should be noted that the described armor Saka in the armies of the Persians and Bactria, according to data issued in mercenaries from the local arsenal!
Ie The main part of the armor was imported or trophies from neighboring states (Baktria, Sarmatians, China, etc.)
Light Armor fabric felt, know of one instance finds wooden greaves.
Known not high collars cuirasses. Do harezmiytsev known solid collar. Known metallic pectoral (maybe just a decoration).
There is also one metallic collar oplech'e (found in the ancient city Chiric)


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Images are taken from article of M.V. Gorelik "Saka armor", from the book "Central Asia. New monuments written and art" Moscow 1987:

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1 Saka bronze Pectoral.(Tuektinsk burial).
2 Scythian Pectoral..
3 Thracian Pectoral.



1 Armor Dzen hou 5th century BC
2 Chusky armor (details skirts)
3 Armor Dinh 3rd century BC
4 Sakа armor of Chirik and reconstruction



helmets
1 The Irtysh River (Altai Territory)
2 Kosymchi city (Talas Valley)
3 Samrkand
4-5 of Crimea
6 Vorontsov Kurgan
7 Old Pechura (Saratov region)
8 Sifendrut
9 Achaemenid print
10 Yixian province Heby
11 Royal Museum Toronto
12 Bayfu (Changping)
13 Nyanshangon (Liaoning)



shields
1 Pazyryk (Altai) Kurgan 3
2 Pazyryk Kurgan 2 (shield inside and outside)
3 Pazyryk Kurgan one (vnutreneyaya side shields)
4 Tuekta (Altai) Kurgan 1 (the outer side of the shield and the inner part)
5 Tuekta (Altai) Kurgan 1 (the inner side of the shield)
6 Akbent (Eastern Pamir) (the inner side of the shield)
7 Pamirskaya (Eastern Pamir) (the inner side of the shield)

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Photo from the personal archive. Reconstruction of Sakа sword and gorytus
Samples from Krym Altynbekov laboratory:

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Photo from the personal archive. Burials of nomads (kurgans). (And you can see the steppe)
Graves always (almost always) near to the river. The main theory is that the funeral of transferring dead body across the River to the other side:

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Sakae


Saka kings famaly burial


Saka kings famaly burial (outside resemble Sarmatian)


ordinary Saka burial.


Sarmatian


ordinary Sarmatian burial.


ordinary Sarmatian burial. (also you can see the line in surface, like road) we call it
mustache of kurgans.


sarmatian axe in burial

Wusun

ordinary Wusun burial (stones and soil)


ordinary Wusun burial


Excavation of kurgan (burial). Сontroversial issue. Usun or Yuezhi?!

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Recommendations for the creation of units:

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(The recommended percentage rule units)

And so .. hats characteristic of the steppes and Central Asia (the first picture is a standard in the ROME2):

Saka & Dahae & Massagetae:|10% | 50% | 5%| 25% *Cimmerians:  | ...|...|50%|....|
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Clothing typical of steppes and Central Asia (the first picture is a standard in the game):

|5-15% for saka (60% for khoresm)      |same  |30% for saka (70% for sarmatian)  |55-70% for saka (10-30% for all tribes of Central Asia)

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Pants and shoes are standard Scythian:

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My 3D work:
Buildings

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Saka mithra temple (excavation not finished - the reconstruction and video i made just for media)

Remake of barbarian_round_house_large (same size)



Some main building.




In our collection we are have buildings for nomads: yurts, holy places (sanctity), kurgans. Now I also made a few models. I hope all will go into our game.
The main problem, which is built from the nomads,  if they the nomads?! Now i show a typical building. Used since from Bronze Age to the Middle Ages.
I hope you like it.


reconstruction of yurts (based on Kerch fresco)




sanctuary can be for eastern sarmatians tribes or dahae

Units:

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not finished units (just 3D models without bones):

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Resources

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Books and articles:
Grigoriev V. About scuthian tribe- Saka
Gorelik M. Saka arrmor
Illustrations of book Artamonov M. Saka treasures
Akishev A. Saka Mithraism

...
Links:

[Gigantus]

The two main problems of nomads:
1) they are nomads
2) irregulars

Here comes the devil's advocate: it's possible to create playable hordes in M2TW by shuffling some descr_strat entries and stuff. The principles and commands 'should' be applicable to RTW as well - anyone has an idea how to do the script part in a show_me script (really didn't have the need for it in M2TW)?

Edit: the script does not appear to be necessary, but that would need testing.

[xeofox]

Edit: the script does not appear to be necessary, but that would need testing.

Looks very interesting! If it posible then wiil be revolutionary progress in RTW engine! But urbanization? Nomads will be have some (personal) buildings tree?
And points for start? Forts, Campus?

[Gigantus]

The faction would start as horde - without settlements. Otherwise they will handle like a regular faction.

I compared the entries in descr_sm_factions and descr_strat of RTW and M2TW and the only entry that isn't present in RTW is the 'spawned on event' entry in descr_sm_factions. This relates to being able to spawn the faction via script if it isn't present at game start. Can't say if this is essential, seeing that the faction will be present at game start.

Otherwise the principle is surprising easy:
Create a faction with horde capability in descr_sm_factions (if new requires all the usual trimmings)
Add this faction and an army with a named character (faction leader) in descr_strat (just above slave faction), place the character somewhere on the map (valid spot, outside of any fort or settlement)
Move a random settlement entry (not the first one - that's the capital) of any faction into the regular settlement spot of this faction.

Start game as faction.

The random settlement still has the original garison assigned to it, this causes the settlement to immediately revert to the original faction at game start. Loosing the last settlement causes a faction to horde.

[xeofox]

The faction would start as horde - without settlements. Otherwise they will handle like a regular faction.

Is it posible?
And i think saka can be horde, but sarmatian can take one or two settlements (i don`t sure).
Saka -horde it will be wery good. In chigu city will be wusun!

[Gigantus]

I edited my previous post with some explanations, please check. It has never been tested if placing the army in a fort actually works but it could be possible.

The principle has never been tried in RTW and requires testing, but by the looks of it may be possible. I will try to modify one of the existing factions for this use, but it may take a while.

Bad news: Alexander does not accept the horde settings from BI - it's a no go. I converted scythia to a horde faction and moved one settlement and the two garisons into factiond - the first error that popped up was about the first horde line (do not recognize horde_min_unit) in descr_sm_factions.

Sorry guys, this could have been awesome. I guess it will work with BI...

[ahowl11]

Unfortunately that's the only thing about the alx engine that hurts us. Other than that it's way better than BI

[morfeasnikos]

Very good units they fit perfect!

[xeofox]

Very good units they fit perfect!

Thanks comrade!

[xeofox]

Saka mithra temple
(here in this video my not final 3d work). (ENG)

[xeofox]

Photos from FB album of Elena Barinova
(National museum of Kazakhstan Republic) 32 photo

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*I want to remind: Do not be tempted horned by horses for battle. Horned horses THIS funerary (and parade posible) rite.

[Jubal]

It's a pity that there's so little one can do with the "zoom in on city" feature in RTW, it's far too crude to do much with but it would've been cool to have everything funeral processions like that in.

[ahowl11]

I think there is a lot of opportunity with the Saka, as we can make them into the Indo-Scythian kingdoms as well. Xeofox, what about some names? Also, what would be good as a faction symbol?
Does anyone know who did the research of the Saka for EB? Was it Arjos?

[xeofox]

I think there is a lot of opportunity with the Saka, as we can make them into the Indo-Scythian kingdoms as well. Xeofox, what about some names? Also, what would be good as a faction symbol?
Does anyone know who did the research of the Saka for EB? Was it Arjos?

Saka faction -we need info but we have accumulated data (here, twc and workshop folder). I hope it will be used. Besides units and new buildings, i hope to see in mod new religions (Mithraism), event: Wusuns inv. also. The text for faction info need corect. The symbol (from archaeologycal) frequent - deer.
"Indo-Scythian kingdoms" - many nations? Saka - it`s not one nation. "Saka" -collective name. Names in current mod wery intresting, but i don`t found in list real saka name like:
Anacharsis (Anarys), Shirak, Zarina, Tomiris...
And About Zarina. It`s intresting situation. In mod saka Capital it``s ChiguChen(Chigu) but it was Wusun Capital and we use this point like Saka point before Wusuns Came in mid of 2 bc. But Zarina saka queen was in Roxanaki (Roksanakae (?)) city. Where this saka city was- nobody know! One theory -on the shore of Syrdaria.

[Gigantus]

There are nine more faction slots available....