Author Topic: Belief in NHI  (Read 8501 times)

Jubal

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Re: Belief in NHI
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2023, 10:03:39 PM »
That's a fair point regarding Ancient Aliens, though at least for me I find it easier to envisage how to deal with and improve access to better history and content around something like The History Channel than I do with TikTok which because the content generation is distributed and the content algorithm centralised feels much more of a hydra to try and even think about tackling. And I think I could, if pushed, make a sit-down TV show or a vlog, whereas I cannot fathom or imagine how to boil information into TikTok sized chunks, it simply isn't a communication style I can handle at all.
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dubsartur

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Re: Belief in NHI
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2023, 02:32:01 AM »
That's a fair point regarding Ancient Aliens, though at least for me I find it easier to envisage how to deal with and improve access to better history and content around something like The History Channel than I do with TikTok which because the content generation is distributed and the content algorithm centralised feels much more of a hydra to try and even think about tackling. And I think I could, if pushed, make a sit-down TV show or a vlog, whereas I cannot fathom or imagine how to boil information into TikTok sized chunks, it simply isn't a communication style I can handle at all.
Well, if someone is watching TikTok or listening to most chatty media I think you have to accept that they are not really interested in learning in a critical way.  They just want to be amused or hear what someone they care about says.  Those media are like the guy in the bar who likes to BS a lot about all kinds of ideas.

If they care about "is it true?" they will look somewhere else.

Saying something wrong that people are ANGRY ON THE INTERNET about can be a really good way to get web traffic.  One reason why I am confused about the weird Internet communities is that one of my heuristics is "never get worked up about a bad idea or person which you just know from the Internet, people who post a lot are mostly harmless" but then they started to get offline power behind them.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2023, 03:48:47 AM by dubsartur »

Jubal

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Re: Belief in NHI
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2023, 11:50:36 PM »
That's a fair point regarding Ancient Aliens, though at least for me I find it easier to envisage how to deal with and improve access to better history and content around something like The History Channel than I do with TikTok which because the content generation is distributed and the content algorithm centralised feels much more of a hydra to try and even think about tackling. And I think I could, if pushed, make a sit-down TV show or a vlog, whereas I cannot fathom or imagine how to boil information into TikTok sized chunks, it simply isn't a communication style I can handle at all.
Well, if someone is watching TikTok or listening to most chatty media I think you have to accept that they are not really interested in learning in a critical way.  They just want to be amused or hear what someone they care about says.  Those media are like the guy in the bar who likes to BS a lot about all kinds of ideas.

If they care about "is it true?" they will look somewhere else.
I'm really not sure this is actually the case - I think a lot of people do look for serious information on things like TikTok. My understanding would be that a lot of people in some sense look for a sense of directness and/or authenticity as part of their framework for thinking about what media they can trust, and the sense of "this is someone like me, a Gen-Z/Millennial talking directly in their bedroom on a phone" is given a probably overly large up-weighting in the "therefore I can trust this, this person wouldn't lie to me or be distorting the important bits of the truth" calculation. That's then added to the fact that TikTok like other media young people use is often saturated with critical-thought related terminology, so there's a lot of cod-academic talking on there. And coupled with a certain scepticism about the traditional media as out of touch, and portrayals of traditional academia as likewise old fashioned and biased, there's a very fertile ground for creating content that people genuinely treat as worthwhile critical analysis and reads to them as the genuine article in that regard.
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dubsartur

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Re: Belief in NHI
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2023, 06:30:05 AM »
I'm really not sure this is actually the case - I think a lot of people do look for serious information on things like TikTok. My understanding would be that a lot of people in some sense look for a sense of directness and/or authenticity as part of their framework for thinking about what media they can trust, and the sense of "this is someone like me, a Gen-Z/Millennial talking directly in their bedroom on a phone" is given a probably overly large up-weighting in the "therefore I can trust this, this person wouldn't lie to me or be distorting the important bits of the truth" calculation. That's then added to the fact that TikTok like other media young people use is often saturated with critical-thought related terminology, so there's a lot of cod-academic talking on there. And coupled with a certain scepticism about the traditional media as out of touch, and portrayals of traditional academia as likewise old fashioned and biased, there's a very fertile ground for creating content that people genuinely treat as worthwhile critical analysis and reads to them as the genuine article in that regard.
People are good at deluding themselves, but almost everyone has learned a skill after they could walk and talk and experienced that 'sound bites' and pithy phrases are cool but actual learning requires practice practice practice. 

In Canada we have one-page papers distributed in fast food joints and cafes with a section of cool random facts.  Reader's Digest used to have columns of those.  I think that 30 second videos selected by a black-box algorithm are similar.  They are meant to be absorbed with an open or agnostic mind, because there is no way to approach the information presented in a more critical way without quickly drowning it out in other sources.  That is, the audience is expected to either accept the claims, or see them as fundamentally unknowable (whereas in a scientific skeptical way of thinking we ask "is that true? how could we know? what is the evidence? where did it come from originally?")

Two useful words for the kind of things that these sites serve are edutainment and insight porn.  Insight porn is a long-form type aimed at people with high IQs but collections of snappy phrases feel similar.  On Facebook and Instagram they often circulate as images with a few dozen words of text.

Two other useful terms are truthiness and the system 1, system 2 model popularized by Daniel Kahneman.  Anonymous unsourced short-form content is meant to be consumed by people "thinking fast" rather than looking at the details.  Remember when Richard Feynmann noticed that things you talk about at a party tend to be things nobody knows anything about, like the forthcoming election, because if someone in the group obviously knew more about the topic than the others that someone would dominate the conversation.  I think this law means that people tend to consume this kind of content on topics they don't know much about or have much experience with.

Most people listen to the pub lawyer to be entertained right?  Maybe part of the fun is listening to the lawyer arguing with one or two other people who engage, but the rest is listening to someone articulate and passionate and provocative who seems like he (in my experience its a he) knows what he is talking about.  Trying to engage in a critical, evidence-based way would be more work, and they are in the pub to relax and bond. 

We all have to rely on those informal methods a lot of the time, but anyone who trusts anonymous short videos served by a black-box algorithm for selling ads will get into trouble.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2023, 07:35:20 AM by dubsartur »

Jubal

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Re: Belief in NHI
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2023, 11:04:24 PM »
Hm. I think that's true regarding learning in the academic sense, but what a lot of people are looking for - reasonably, because as you've said elsewhere regarding print media it's important to note that not everyone can be a specialist - is not a deep understanding of the details of a topic, it's headline basic facts at the lowest quantity necessary to inform their own future behaviour. My case on this would be that I think certain sectors of people do rely on short-form content as a way of getting those pieces of information, and treat that as something for utility and consuming critical approaches not idle entertainment.

I agree that that's bad! But I'm not sure it's a kind of bad one can really just shrug off as "well those people aren't interested in critical thinking and learning anyway". A lot of people you or I might think of as producing edutainment content would strongly disagree that that's what they were doing (as opposed to providing accessible, authentic commentary on the relevant topic), and their viewers would likely feel the same way. My feeling is that this is a serious facet of modern media and thought-spaces that we're going to need to try and find a way to handle, alongside the many other issues poisoning the information flows in modern societies.
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dubsartur

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Re: Belief in NHI
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2023, 05:19:33 AM »
I agree that that's bad! But I'm not sure it's a kind of bad one can really just shrug off as "well those people aren't interested in critical thinking and learning anyway". A lot of people you or I might think of as producing edutainment content would strongly disagree that that's what they were doing (as opposed to providing accessible, authentic commentary on the relevant topic), and their viewers would likely feel the same way. My feeling is that this is a serious facet of modern media and thought-spaces that we're going to need to try and find a way to handle, alongside the many other issues poisoning the information flows in modern societies.
Another concept I have found online is "someone but not anyone in particular."  For about 10 years now I post and translate many sources online and provide many summaries of research, but I have trouble talking to researchers in slightly different specialties and I'm not photogenic or melodious-voiced and I think corporate social media is like the lottery in George Orwell's 1984 (it drags in people's spare resources by creating an illusion that they can change something if they just try a bit harder).  Its also inefficient to search for the source of nonsense in audio and video format compared to text and people of ill will have learned to apply the dark art of nerd sniping and Brandolini's Law.  So someone else can worry about misinformation on TikTok but it would not be a good use of my time.  Its far better to let people focus on what they are good at then to expect them to be good at everything kind of relevant.

Hiring academics to enlighten the public would be a good first step.  One reason why markets in information fail is that people will pay everything they have to be bunked, but not a dime to be debunked.

Edit: also, IME you need to like a corporate social media site to do well on it.  And learning the bizarre and constantly changing rules to get an audience on these sites takes a lot of time.  So I feel like its best to let people who enjoy these sites be the ones who try to push back against nonsense on them.  Just casually posting on social media does not go anywhere.

Back on the original topic, you can uncover the roots of most UFO nonsense just by studying books published between 1875 and 1960 (plus ancient Jewish texts such as the Book of Enoch sigh).  And when you uncover those roots, all the videos and talk radio and podcasts lose their leaves.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2023, 12:52:21 AM by dubsartur »

BeerDrinkingBurke

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Re: Belief in NHI
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2024, 07:14:40 AM »
Quote
One of the rough lessons for people who liked the scholarly early Internet is that a lot of digital things in the smartphone age are not for us.  As the Internet grows bigger, it becomes less like a cross between a university campus and a geeky convention and more like people in general.
Well put. When I got on in the late 90s, I spent most of my time on MUDs and Ultima Dragons usenet. Pretty much everybody was a fellow nerd.
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BeerDrinkingBurke

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Re: Belief in NHI
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2024, 07:26:43 AM »
I re-watched this classic skit the other day. Seems relevant.

I quite like this tongue-in-cheek 'last will and testament' by Philip Klass, published in a newsletter in 1983.

Quote
THE LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT OF PHILIP J. KLASS

    To ufologists who publicly criticize me, ... or who even think unkind thoughts about me in private, I do hereby leave and bequeath: THE UFO CURSE:

    No matter how long you live, you will never know any more about UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about UFOs than you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed you will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will remember this curse.
40 years later, and here we still are.  Getting excited over what somebody says somebody else told them. I guess it will just keep going on like this, over the generations, for quite some time to come.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2024, 07:31:58 AM by BeerDrinkingBurke »
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dubsartur

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Re: Belief in NHI
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2024, 01:25:58 AM »
A lot of early UFO and strange creature stories came down to the limits of human eyes, ears, and memory.  But the current batch are often centred on anomalous sensor readings where there are even more stages where things could get mangled and be very hard to track down.  Some early UFO sightings were almost certainly US military vehicle tests which were not publicly acknowledged at the time, and details about how military aircraft are collecting and processing data must be even harder to sort out.

Photos and audio are becoming the same as more and more smartphones integrate 'AI' to 'improve' photos and recordings.

BeerDrinkingBurke

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Re: Belief in NHI
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2024, 01:46:11 AM »
On that point, one interesting debunking by Mick West was a video of a tic tac UFO taken from a passenger plane window. They were able to catch the details of the fight, figure out the exact time and angle of the shot, and deduce (with flight record software) the precise plane the photo was actually of. However the camera of the phone, when 'zooming', was resolving the plane as a simple tic tac shaped blob, because really the lenses of the phone cannot 'zoom', so there was no extra information to resolve the shape into. (The video in question. )
--
That article I shared before on the dark origins of Starseed thinking is quite interesting with this respect as well. I really recommend it. There's a certain religious / spiritual element, where the spirits of super naturally powerful ancient Indians (Aryans) were simply replaced by Aliens. Alien mythology is heavily cribbed from the alternative spirtualist / theosophist movements of the 19th century.
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BeerDrinkingBurke

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Re: Belief in NHI
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2024, 02:03:52 AM »

Oh wow. The journalist at the New York Post covering this story (Steven Greenstreet) has released a 3 hour and 50 minute breakdown on youtube.
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dubsartur

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Re: Belief in NHI
« Reply #41 on: January 17, 2024, 05:21:09 AM »
And it opens with verse!  When a New York City tabloid calls sus you have problems.

The first hour of the NYP story does not make the New York Times look good.

I sympathize with research dives and feeling alienated, but when I look into the limits of human senses and memory, the figures involved, and the kinds of beliefs some of these people seem to be pushing, I have trouble imagining that anything good could come out of this.  And one phone call or email to anyone involved in scientific skepticism would have given the NYT a heads up about many of the names in their story.  A lot of figures in that space have died or turned into cranks, but there are enough who could run a reporter through the basics.

One very American aspect of the story is that Skinwalker Ranch is a random bit of the Southwest which a succession of shady figures keep selling to each other and trying to make money from.  The name Skinwalker Ranch is one of those marketing ploys!  Robert Bigelow sold the ranch in 2016 and the new owners decided it needed a cool name.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2024, 05:32:20 AM by dubsartur »

BeerDrinkingBurke

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Re: Belief in NHI
« Reply #42 on: January 17, 2024, 05:40:13 AM »
I've still only just started watching it (I'll have to split it over a few evenings) but already fascinated to learn that Hal Puthoff was with project STARGATE. A great example for showing that 'the government' is not an all-knowing entity that operates in some purely rational manner. It's huge, messy, and like the general population at large, has its share of cranks. If you know how to say the right things, or get in the right ear, you can (historically at least) get money cleared for staring at goats.
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dubsartur

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Re: Belief in NHI
« Reply #43 on: January 17, 2024, 04:26:32 PM »
For comparison, Fat Leonard swindled about $35m out of the US navy by just plying officers with ale and whores (my apologies to hard working sex-trade workers for Scott Kurtz' insensitive language in 1999).  When the US federal budget is in the trillions and full of corruption and secrecy nonsense will slip through.

Canada wastes that kind of money just having naval ships built in Canadian shipyards owned by the family that owns Nova Scotia rather than a Korean or German shipyard that actually knows how to build ships.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2024, 04:39:40 PM by dubsartur »

dubsartur

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Re: Belief in NHI
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2024, 09:50:21 PM »
At 1 hour in Nick Pope alludes to one of the supernatural theories I have heard of (that anomalies are the workings of a Trickester god, like creationists used to say fossils were created by Satan to confound the faithful).  There is a book somewhere which expounds it in more detail.

And when you get into ritual magic, you get into people who try make false things true by saying the right words in a convincing way.  Even aside from motivated reasoning, flawed senses, and people who want to make a buck or get some attention with a fun story.

Regarding 1:20, a number of Joseph Banks Rhine's 'best psychic subjects' were said to be students who got paid more when they guessed the right card (or at least got hired to come back) and had familiarity with stage magic and card tricks.

The interview with Brandon Fugal is excellent at showing how many people pushing weird stuff are pushing things they saw on TV and film or read in books and comics.  It all makes me sad because I took a different path.

The amount of weird **** that is parables, allegories, or in-jokes from Masonry or Mornomism which got out of hand is another deep rabbit hole.  You can very rarely prove it but its often suggestive.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2024, 11:24:47 PM by dubsartur »