Rosetta Probe "Shirtstorm" debate

[Jubal]

Philae is apparently now asleep. Sleep well, little lander!



Also scientist Matt Taylor's slightly poor choice of shirt to use for a TV interview has caused yet another internet storm (which as usual has escalated totally out of control, with everyone blaming everyone else for starting it). Doing my own digging on twitter, looks like the pattern was the normal one: a couple of slightly sarcastic comments about the shirt, followed by a small storm of rage from a band of MRAs, followed by some angrier feminist responses, followed by death threats being thrown around en masse, mainly from MRAs to feminists though a few in the other direction.

Personally I think it was a slightly silly choice of attire for an interview. But it seems very clear from looking at the twitter feeds that the anger and the turning this into an issue is actually from people trying to be angry at the feminists (or in Boris' case, trying to score political points by pretending anger at the feminists) rather than there actually being some huge enraged feminist mafia out there. Boris claims that "if you ask yourself why so few have come to the defence of the scientist, the answer is that no one dares." This is true, but not for the reasons he thinks. The problem is not a lack of people being extremely angry with the people who pointed out that for an area which has a notable reputation for being male-dominated, wearing a shirt covered in half-naked women may send out a poor message, and it's certainly not a lack of an army of people prepared to make a massive thing of the obvious and eventual trolls/extremists who end up sending genuinely nasty messages to him. The thing apparently nobody is willing to do is say "you know what? Maybe if we want to celebrate Dr Taylor's work we should DO THAT, not waste time worrying about a slightly poor sartorial choice that he has now in any case apologised for". The shirt thing is over as far as Taylor is concerned, it's over as far as pretty much all the feminists I've read/heard from are concerned, and the people refusing to let it go are the people desperate to use it as ammunition against "feminism" and "SJWs". Which is kinda sad.

Biggest point though is that it's just depressing how quickly death threats seem to dominate discussions online.

[Cuddly Khan]

The T-Shirt:

Spoiler

[Jubal]

Also as a clarification, I don't think (and I'm pretty sure just about nobody else thinks) that the shirt is inherently not OK in context (the context is that it was made for him by a female friend, he probably wore it as a thankyou that would get her work on TV etc, which is kinda cute albeit silly given the shirt's content). The only thing people were/are concerned about is the image it gave out of astrophysics as a "men only" club, which I think is something that's worth highlighting. I'd be surprised if many people were put off astrophysics by the shirt per se, but there is a serious gender issue in physics and I think it does warrant highlighting and need some thought applying to it to solve.

[Clockwork]

What he was wearing is irrelevant. They're asking to censor a shirt. portugaling retarded, SJWs can just piss off to be honest, I'm tired of their bullarmadillo. It was a great achievement to get a lander onto a comet, if people are questioning his attire there is no goddamn hope.

[Cuddly Khan]

And people are going as far to say that what he wears effects peoples opinion of astrophysics.

[TTG4]

I know this comes across as hypocritical, but I get annoyed that people seem to care more about this shirt than the fact that he was part of the team that LANDED A PROBE ON A COMET!

As for the shirt, I don't think it was appropriate for a press conference, but ultimately what he wears is his choice and he was trying to do his friend a favour by getting her work some exposure, imagine if you'd made something for a friend and they wore it for what's probably going to be the most media attention they'll ever get. Does it show astrophysics as a mens club? Personally I don't think so.

[Jubal]

Yes, I agree less people should care about the shirt. I guess I'm just making two fairly simple points:

• Actually most of the caring about the shirt has been "men's rights" people getting angry about what was initially like a couple of tweets. Pretty much the entire derailment of the story was not down to a couple of snarky feminist tweets, it was a countervailing storm by people getting upset about them. If people had just said "well, that was maybe a bit silly, he apologised for being a bit silly, let's move on" rather than "RAAAAAGH GO KILL YOURSELVES SJWs YOU ARE LITERALLY EVERYTHING THAT IS WRONG WITH THE WORLD" we wouldn't be having this discussion and we'd all be better off for it.
• If Matt Taylor had been female and a couple of bloggers (or indeed a tabloid newspaper) had commented on his clothing nobody would be getting this shocked. At worst, what he's just gone through is what just about every professional woman goes through practically every time they go near a camera. Not that two wrongs make a right, but it seems it takes it happening to a bloke for people to notice that dress code policing is totally not OK. Hopefully everyone will be this enraged next time a female writer, scientist, or politician gets pulled up for dressing badly by the Daily Mail, but somehow I really doubt that will happen.

Colossus: as usual I think you're lumping "SJWs" as this big monolithic monster-hivemind when in fact nothing of the sort appears to exist in practice. I don't think most people WERE asking to "censor a shirt", just using it to point out that there's a big gender problem in the field/noting it as a possible symptom of that. Also, in an exchange that roughly goes:

*Guy wears shirt*
Feminist: That shirt's not really appropriate for a TV interview
Twitter: Go and jump off a cliff and kill yourself, feminist

I don't personally see the feminist as being the unreasonable one?

TTG4: In getting the shirt exposure he has, undeniably, been totally successful.

Khan: What people in certain careers look and dress like does affect people's opinions of those careers. There's a LOT of research on that. Not that Matt Taylor is going to have single-handedly put women off astrophysics (in fact I think the fact he was prepared to address the problem openly etc reflected very well on him), but prominent people do influence perceptions of whether people think certain careers/groups are for "people like them".

[Gen_Glory]

wasn't there a load of stories about what the indian women were wearing when they got their satellite to mars?

[comrade_general]

Flower shirt in the back, so very inappropriate, I am offended because I am morally against flowers. 

[Jubal]

CG: I will be concerned about your offendedness when you can back up that flower-lovers have been historically and currently are oppressed in society with verifiable statistics and data sets

DD: No idea, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[comrade_general]

CG: I will be concerned about your offendedness when you can back up that flower-lovers have been historically and currently are oppressed in society with verifiable statistics and data sets

Doesn't matter. I am offended by flowers therefore they are wrong. Wrong. Wrong. WRONG!

[Clockwork]

@Jub, the thing is it was more like:

Guy wears a shirt.
Femenist: I should probably get one of those with ripped guys on.... Yum.
Femenazi: Woman hater! Purge the unclean through cleansing flame!
Realistically minded people: Tha portugal? I thought he landed something on a comet, apparently it was his shirt or something.
Trolls: Lol a feminazi, get rekt bitch look me 420noscope skillz.

Unreasonable is totally dependent on your side. IMO it's the femenazis that are so easily portugaling provoked, just everyone chill the portugal out. Don't be so offended, and nobody give them any damn attention if they do get offended over such trivial armadillo. With all the bullarmadillo that happened over the gamersgate, clearly SJWs do in fact have their own forums and armadillo. Ok so they're about as effective as a tea towel in a gunfight but hey. Maybe someone will be dumb enough to listen and then all kind of bollocks will ensue. I'm hating on the people that should be hated. If you're just letting people get on with armadillo I have no problem. It's not exactly too much to ask that they keep their bullarmadillo to their forums/sent to local MPs or whatever.

@CG I actually don't like plants, they're creepy, I never know what those sly bastards are thinking. -.-

[joek]

Colossus: Constantly referring to 'feminazis', a group which exists only in the mind of Rush Limbaugh, doesn't actually do much for your argument. All it suggests is that you are looking for a reason to attack feminists, rather than looking at what has actually happened.

Feminist: I should probably get one of those with ripped guys on.... Yum.
Feminazi: Woman hater! Purge the unclean through cleansing flame!
Realistically minded people: Tha portugal? I thought he landed something on a comet, apparently it was his shirt or something.
Trolls: Lol a feminazi, get rekt bitch look me 420noscope skillz.

If you can give any evidence that any of these comments are anything like what happened, that might help your point.

But from where I'm sitting, the feminist reaction to Matt Taylor's shirt looked like this.

Meanwhile, as for the reaction of trolls, you are either posting without knowing what you are talking about, or are being dishonest, here.

Because the posts I've been seeing look more like this. Or this. Both of which are totally reasonable, right.

Don't be so offended

Well, I sure am glad I have you to tell me when I have the right to be offended and when I don't.

On a more fundamental point, no one is offended. They are concerned that, given women are historically underrepresented in science, especially the physical sciences, because it is thought of as a man's discipline, this is not going to help bring more women into science, but rather contribute to an atmosphere that drives young girls away from science. Which is pretty obviously a bad thing. There is also concern that no one in ESA, who IIRC have their own women in science program, pointed out the problematic message that girls wanting to go into science are going to get from this shirt.

Here's an article on why people are annoyed at Matt Taylor's shirt. Note the lack of the phrase "I find it offensive".

And, for good measure, here's an article, with a link to the original study, about the effect that perception of objectification has on women. If you can't see how that shirt would make someone think that the wearer objectifies women, then there's no hope whatsoever for this discussion.

With all the bullarmadillo that happened over the gamersgate, clearly SJWs do in fact have their own forums and armadillo.

Evidently. I mean, you provide absolutely no evidence of that, and from where I was sitting I saw no indication of that whatsoever, but clearly you know best. It's inconcievable, after all, that multiple people could independantly criticise a movement whose public face is made up largely of giving women rape- and death-threats.

It's not exactly too much to ask that they keep their bullarmadillo to their forums/sent to local MPs or whatever.

What precisely do you think that the evil wimminz(tm) did do that you object to, then, if they're allowed to talk about it. Because I haven't seen them do anything else. They haven't tried to make anyone lose their job, or send anyone death threats, both of which I've linked to people responding to them doing.

EDITED: Comment Syntax

[Clockwork]

@joek Constantly? Hardly. And it was irony rather than actual use.

Also I'm never talking to anyone here directly with these sort of comments matey, so when I say things like 'Don't be offended' it's not to you it's to whoever I'm talking about.... Unless you actually have an agenda against men then I'm not talking about you. Don't make it personal, hate the argument not the person behind it. From what I've written I'm probably hugely self loathing, have multiple abandonment issues and really just want someone to love me. Or not and I'm reading too much in to how you're writing. Point is, it feels like you're trying to make it personal. I'm asking nicely, lay off.

No, feminism is good, great even. I am all for true equality, I don't give two portugals if you're male/female/trans/other, be a decent person and leave me the portugal alone to do whatever I want to do and that's great. Objectification is an odd thing to get annoyed about imo. When people 'objectify' other people, it's not them, it's their assets. Leave men to objectify womens assets if they want because hell, they're pretty portugaling amazing and they look great. They may never get laid by some girls for doing that, but hey I know girls that love it when guys are looking at them like that, because it makes them feel (and here's the kicker) like a woman. I'm totally cool with women objectifying male assets and don't feel the need to take it personally in the slightest I may be a little jaded that it's never about me but hey . I can accept being portugal ugly without needing everyone else to never talk about how good looking another person is.

Urgh, your logic hurts. We read different things, that's cool. Don't just dismiss what I'm saying because my language is 'colourful' and it happens to disagree with what you've seen so far. Take it with skepticism, sure I'm always an advocate of that in most everything. I can't find where I read it, its been buried in a mountain of other armadilloe but yes there were definitely shots fired from both sides. If you're denying that then....Erm...yikes

The feminist I portrayed displays a reasonable reaction, maybe I wasn't clear enough: I was showing equality there see because she thinks about doing the same. The femenazi, not so much which is who my rant was aimed at, you may be oblivious to them but yeah go to enough places, hell take 20 minutes browsing youtube and you'll find all kinds of bullarmadillo (more or less) exactly as I'm saying it.

A quote from Anita Sarkeesian: "There's no such thing as sexism against men" So yes, she is the typified person I'm hating on.

What do they do? Cause negativity and arguments all over the place, reducing my enjoyment of browsing the internet for pictures of cats and music by Maria Brink. I would much prefer they stayed to their own forums and promoted their agenda endlessly and futilely there instead. Real equality progression I've always said has to be made by white men. (Which I know is kind of ironic ) By that I mean that because we've had it so easy and got accustomed to being paid more/whatever and because we do have most higher paying jobs and a load of industries are against women working in them, one of them I'm actively trying to combat* it's up to our generation and I think this time we're actually going to do it, if not then real progress is going to be made when the likes of Jubal are in their 30's/40's and equality won't even be a thing, it'll just be natural to offer jobs to whoever has the right creds for it.

*women in metal bands, ok so it's a niche business but hey I'm doing what I can in an area I feel I have a good amount of knowledge in, I would do gaming but that gets so much coverage it's getting real messy.

EDIT: This is pretty much what I'm saying but a lot better, words never have been my weapon of choice. http://goo.gl/L2cPLx

[joek]

I know this post is long, but @Colossus, at least, should read it. The tl;dr is that the above post is massively problematic. You can probably skip down to "feminism is good, great even" for the most important parts.

@joek Constantly? Hardly. And it was irony rather than actual use.

You see, the thing is it's not really believable if you claim it was irony and then use the word again in this post.

Also I'm never talking to anyone here directly with these sort of comments matey, so when I say things like 'Don't be offended' it's not to you it's to whoever I'm talking about...

Possibly you missed the point of my comment. Possibly you are being obtuse. Either way, I'll spell it out for you: you don't get to tell anyone, whether or not it is me, whether they have the right to be offended about anything.

Don't make it personal, hate the argument not the person behind it... Point is, it feels like you're trying to make it personal. I'm asking nicely, lay off.

You think that my above post is me trying to make it personal? Seriously? And you criticise others for being offended? Wow.

If you think my above post was in any way personal, please tell me where. I am genuinely confused here.

No, feminism is good, great even.

Some of your best friends are feminists, right?

Look, the thing is, you can say that you support feminism all you like, but my only experience of your attitude to feminism is you saying that feminists shouldn't be doing something because you personally don't like it, claiming that they're as bad as the people giving them death threats, and generally being anti-feminist. And on that basis, I'm going to judge that you are not a feminist, or a supporter of feminism, in any way. You're at best clueless about what the issue is here.

I am all for true equality, I don't give two portugals if you're male/female/trans/other, be a decent person and leave me the portugal alone to do whatever I want to do and that's great.

You're all for equality, but you think that criticising men for doing something which actively harms the fight for equality is a bad thing? Which is true?

Objectification is an odd thing to get annoyed about imo. When people 'objectify' other people, it's not them, it's their assets. Leave men to objectify womens assets if they want because hell, they're pretty portugaling amazing and they look great. They may never get laid by some girls for doing that, but hey I know girls that love it when guys are looking at them like that, because it makes them feel (and here's the kicker) like a woman. I'm totally cool with women objectifying male assets and don't feel the need to take it personally in the slightest I may be a little jaded that it's never about me but hey . I can accept being portugal ugly without needing everyone else to never talk about how good looking another person is.

Oh, for portugal's sake. This is like feminism portugaling 101 or something, here.

Objectification is not just "talk[ing] about how good looking another person is". It's exactly what it sounds like:

The demotion or degrading of a person or class of people (esp. women) to the status of a mere object.

And, to quote Granny Weatherwax in Carpe Jugulum:

Sin, young man, is when you treat people like things.

No one is saying that you can't appreciate women's looks. What we're saying is that you should treat women as portugaling people too. By, for example, not infantilising them by consistently referring to them as "girls". Or, e.g., not wearing a shirt to work which is covered in images of women in fetish gear, and then going on live TV, wearing that shirt, and referring to a spacecraft as "sexy, but not easy". Is this really that hard to understand.

And, if there is a woman who likes being objectified, rather than having their looks appreciated, then knock yourself out. Objectify her. That doesn't give anyone else the right to objectify other women, who don't want to be so treated.

Finally, when you say "well, objectification is harmless", maybe you should read the article I linked to about a peer-reviewed study showing the harms of objectification. That was, after all, why I linked it. Or possibly you did and you're arguing in bad faith.

Urgh, your logic hurts. We read different things, that's cool. Don't just dismiss what I'm saying because my language is 'colourful' and it happens to disagree with what you've seen so far. Take it with skepticism, sure I'm always an advocate of that in most everything. I can't find where I read it, its been buried in a mountain of other armadilloe but yes there were definitely shots fired from both sides. If you're denying that then....Erm...yikes

I'm not disagreeing with you because you are swearing. As this reply has shown, I swear to emphasise points. Nor am I disagreeing with you because your stance contradicts what I've seen so far. I'm disagreeing with you because I have seen no evidence, and you have been unable to provide any evidence, that what you say is at all true and because you clearly don't understand many of the issues at stake, such as e.g. the problem of objectification.

I'm not denying that there were shots fired from both sides. I'm simply saying that in every article, blog post, blog comment, forum post and so on I've read on this topic, I've not seen anything from one side that was in any way equivalent to death threats, or trying to get someone fired because of an opinion they hold. I'm also saying that since you haven't been able to give me any evidence of these things, other than asserting that they're happening, I'm not going to change my mind. You should support that: it's the skeptical viewpoint, after all.

The feminist I portrayed displays a reasonable reaction, maybe I wasn't clear enough: I was showing equality there see because she thinks about doing the same. The femenazi, not so much which is who my rant was aimed at, you may be oblivious to them but yeah go to enough places, hell take 20 minutes browsing youtube and you'll find all kinds of bullarmadillo (more or less) exactly as I'm saying it.

I'm not doing your research for you, here. Show me where it's happening, and I'll condemn it. As it is, the majority of the backlash has been against people (such as Rose Eveleth) who have expressed perfectly reasonable opinions.

A quote from Anita Sarkeesian: "There's no such thing as sexism against men" So yes, she is the typified person I'm hating on.

1. As far as I am aware, Anita Sarkeesian has not commented at all on Matt Taylor's shirt. So claiming you're hating on her when you are in a thread talking about the Philae landing, and the controversy over Matt Taylor's shirt, is just bullarmadillo.

2. The idea that there's no such thing as sexism against men is a relatively widespread, and perfectly coherent, view. For the same reason that there is no such thing as racism against white people in the West. Men have historically had, and still have, masses of privilege relative to women, and I don't understand why some people find this hard to accept. (If you think that there is such thing as sexism against men, I'd love to see examples. Bonus points if that "sexism" is caused by women.)

What do they do? Cause negativity and arguments all over the place, reducing my enjoyment of browsing the internet for pictures of cats and music by Maria Brink.

Seriously.

1. If you're just looking at cat pictures, you shouldn't have come across this debate at all. I've never searched "funny cat pictures" on Google and come up with a debate on feminism.

My next point is going to actually contain a personal attack. If you can't handle it, then I really don't give a portugal.

2. If you think that your right to look at the internet is more important than feminists' rights to discuss the problems of misogyny in our society, and the fact that women and men are not equal, then you are a portugaling terrible person, and you epitomise if not everything which is wrong with today's society, then a hell of a lot of it.

To quote Martin Niemoller:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

I would much prefer they stayed to their own forums and promoted their agenda endlessly and futilely there instead. Real equality progression I've always said has to be made by white men. (Which I know is kind of ironic )

Today I learned:

* Rosa Parks did not real.

* Martin Luther King did not real.

* The Stonewall Riots did not real.

* Malcolm X did not real.

* Emmeline Pankhurst did not real. Nor did Emily Davison. Nor any of the other Pankhursts.

Real equality has never been made by straight white men. I see no evidence that it's going to suddenly become so now. (And besides, many straight white men did comment on this, so your point is invalid).

Seriously, you are suggesting that what women did wrong is talk out of turn in a way where you, as a white man, could hear them. And yet, as you said above, you support feminism. Wow. Do you see the irony here?

By that I mean that because we've had it so easy and got accustomed to being paid more/whatever and because we do have most higher paying jobs and a load of industries are against women working in them, one of them I'm actively trying to combat* it's up to our generation and I think this time we're actually going to do it, if not then real progress is going to be made when the likes of Jubal are in their 30's/40's and equality won't even be a thing, it'll just be natural to offer jobs to whoever has the right creds for it.

I wouldn't hold your breath, frankly. Equality will continue to go to those who fight for it.

EDIT: This is pretty much what I'm saying but a lot better, words never have been my weapon of choice. http://goo.gl/L2cPLx

If you genuinely support the sentiments expressed in that image, there's no hope for you. Supporters of female representation in metal music should be running the portugal away from you about now.

I'm not going to do a point by point fisking of it, but:

* Saying that people are objects. Nope, they're portugaling people.

* Suggesting that campaigning against objectification is bigoted. portugal that noise.

* Suggesting that it's the problem of the people focusing on what Taylor is wearing. Nope, he chose to wear it. It's no one's fault but his (and his bosses, for not saying that it's entirely inappropriate for the workplace)

* Saying that seeing what he's wearing is the same as objectification, which is just wrong.

* Being a misogynistic portugalwit who brings out the tired old fainting couches trope.