Author Topic: Discussion: New Faction Units  (Read 26071 times)

ahowl11

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Discussion: New Faction Units
« on: February 07, 2014, 05:23:31 PM »
I have put this discussion off for far too long now, and since we are very close to testing 0.5 I have decided to make this thread for the next version.
So as the title reads, this is only for faction units. No AOR units right now. There will be some factional units that use AOR but that's different. So basically we need to fill up the rosters and make them balanced for the version after 0.5. We will do one faction at a time to concentrate our focus on. This is the time to research and get everything right. I do not plan on changing faction rosters much after we finish this discussion. We will make it easy and start with Rome.
As far as unit models etc, none of them are set in stone from 0.5. All are subject to change. I have put sources of where we can use models/textures for each unit in parenthesis.
This Discussion Thread will go hand in hand with the Unit Workshop! For every unit finalized here, a DMB and EDU entry will need to be made in the unit workshop thread. From that thread, we will be able to keep count of slots being used, and it will help us keep ourselves organized. Also it will be easy to copy/paste the DMB/EDU entries from that thread into the game files.


Roman Republic
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Republic of Carthage
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Antigonid Kingdom
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Seleucid Empire
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Ptolemaic Empire
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Hellenic Kingdoms
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Greek Cities & Greek States
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Pontus
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Parthia
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« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 09:51:13 PM by ahowl11 »
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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2014, 08:24:42 PM »
A good thread I also waited for!

Now onto your first question: That's very difficult. Obviously there weren't any actual reforms that could be recognised as such. What is described as the Polybian system is just the Roman equipment as depicted in Polybios' writings and confirmed by archaelogical finds, in difference to the earlier forms at the time of Camillus and the very early Republic. The Manipular system with the Triplex Acies as such was already introduced in the early 3rd century, while auxiliaries and the new officer structures were only implemented by Scipio during the 2nd Punic War. So we could say the whole ''reform'' happened over a time of not less than 100 years.

So what does that mean for the game? First I'm only an advisor here so I won't, can't and don't want to make a final decision  :P Maybe Rome could start with some ancient units of Camillian style (not sure if they would still be similar to hoplites in 280 BC) who can't be recruited (like Pikemen on Empire) and then we have some militia, but mainly ''Polybian'' units for them.
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ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2014, 10:58:42 PM »
Hmmm I think it would be easier to just do away with a Camillan Army. It would take up a lot of space, and we aren't trying to be the next EB either. So I'll edit it out. I think it will make things a lot easier.

So now, I can slot the Extraordinarii in as the elite troops.

I just need help with the Marian Auxilia, but I'm going to rent the Kindle version of this book. Hopefully I can get some answers.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Republican-Roman-Army-Sourcebook/dp/0415178800/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389320584&sr=8-1&keywords=the+republican+roman+army

Also, should the regular Polybian troops only be recruitable from Rome/Capua or just Rome? And would there be an Italic Velite unit?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 11:04:48 PM by ahowl11 »
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Bercor

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2014, 11:35:15 PM »
Does RTRVII use Camillan units? I can't remember...

ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2014, 11:52:06 PM »
I'm not sure, but regardless we don't need them now.
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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2014, 12:22:00 AM »
I'm pretty sure RTR VII used Camillan units. Leaving them out, at least for now, will do no harm. As for the auxiliae, there was that thread on the R2TR forum, but actual units are mostly only accredited for the Augustan age.

I don't see a problem with Italic velites, everyone's got skirmishers after all. How do you want to restrict the recruitment exactly? Would you be able to build legionary barracks in other towns later or would we completely restrict the recruitment of Polybian legions to Rome/Capua and only make it possible to recruit Marian troops everywhere? I think on RTR 6 you were able to construct a building called ''Roman citizenship'', which enabled you to build a legionary camp where you would train new cohorts. Maybe the Polybian units should indeed be restricted to Rome and Capua and after the Marian ''reforms'' one could use that citizenship principle to recruit troops otherwhere.

If we want to keep it historical, the citizenship building could have the following effects:
* Enables you to construct legionary barracks
* + 50 % public order (since the population would be happy to be acknowledged in such a way)
* - 20 % income (to reflect economic losses in Italy and minor unhappiness at the court/in Latium. OR, but I don't think that's possible, it should decrease the public order in Latium & Capua, which would be the most realistic. At any rate, there should be a negative effect to giving citizenship to everyone since there was good reason that Rome hesitated to do so for five centuries)
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ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2014, 01:40:38 AM »
Yeah I think tying the barracks to citizenship is a good idea. Rome/Capua will have it initially with the other Italian cities being able to train at first their own style of units such as Bruttian Infantry or Lucanian Skirmishers. Then with an army barracks or something the native troops would disappear and you would be able to train Italic Hastati etc. As for Marian Auxilia, I think they probably relied on basic mercenaries. Cretan Archers, Numidian Cavalry, Gallic troops etc. that fought in their native styles. So we don't need to worry about that. I've also added Funditores and Sagitarii to the list. Sagitarii will be a factional AOR unit for the Marian Army, but what about the Funditores? AOR or no?

Also, as for recruitment with the Romans, Res Gestae has a pretty interesting Script where you can recruit an entire Roman Legion in one turn.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?51049-Some-other-Add-ons-!
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« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 02:35:31 AM by ahowl11 »
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Alavaria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2014, 04:24:07 AM »
If we want to keep it historical, the citizenship building could have the following effects:
* Enables you to construct legionary barracks
* + 50 % public order (since the population would be happy to be acknowledged in such a way)
* - 20 % income (to reflect economic losses in Italy and minor unhappiness at the court/in Latium. OR, but I don't think that's possible, it should decrease the public order in Latium & Capua, which would be the most realistic. At any rate, there should be a negative effect to giving citizenship to everyone since there was good reason that Rome hesitated to do so for five centuries)
Note that if you use -% Tax Income Bonus, you can't reduce a settlement below 0% Bonus. Hardly anything in Vanilla RTW gives the bonus in the first place ...

Amusingly this means the building would be a great thing to build in all the random backwater areas that might grow too large, which you are holding just to hold it.

ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2014, 05:08:08 AM »
So what would you suggest?
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Alavaria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2014, 12:50:15 PM »
Right.

Well, if you like the (economy is done via income tax bonus) approach, then there's not necessarily a problem.

One could also give it a -trade bonus. (Though I think you can't have a settlement go below 0 trade bonus as well).

Other approaches I've seen include a long build time and/or a high cost for the building. In particular, players will be less tempted to start building it in every frontier settlement because (1) could be building other faster/cheaper buildings for public order and (2) could lose the settlement, which I think means you lose the cash and turns of building the citizenship building.

Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2014, 01:11:49 PM »
Well I'm not the game mechanics expert here  :P Do whatever you want, but there should definitely be a negative effect to giving citizenship to everyone. Long building times and high costs might just be right, though, resembling the lengthy progress of romanizing the people and building up the necessary administration to naturalise the natives.

About the funditores, to be honest I've never really heard of them outside of mods, so I'll have to research that. For now excuse me, but it's my birthday  ;D
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Alavaria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2014, 02:23:16 PM »
Yes, you reminded me of the method used in I think FOE or somewhere.

Instead of one long expensive building, it's a line that you "upgrade" ... and some of the initial ones have happiness/law penalties as people are unhappy you are trying to "romanize" them. After you upgrade it some more, they're assimilated and can train in the roman style of troops and become less unhappy etc

Bercor

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2014, 02:25:04 PM »
Well I'm not the game mechanics expert here  :P Do whatever you want, but there should definitely be a negative effect to giving citizenship to everyone. Long building times and high costs might just be right, though, resembling the lengthy progress of romanizing the people and building up the necessary administration to naturalise the natives.

About the funditores, to be honest I've never really heard of them outside of mods, so I'll have to research that. For now excuse me, but it's my birthday  ;D

Congrats then!

Bercor

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2014, 04:07:37 PM »
Right.

Well, if you like the (economy is done via income tax bonus) approach, then there's not necessarily a problem.

One could also give it a -trade bonus. (Though I think you can't have a settlement go below 0 trade bonus as well).

Other approaches I've seen include a long build time and/or a high cost for the building. In particular, players will be less tempted to start building it in every frontier settlement because (1) could be building other faster/cheaper buildings for public order and (2) could lose the settlement, which I think means you lose the cash and turns of building the citizenship building.


I see... Well, even if it's impossible to reduce the tax income to below 0%, we can at least ensure that it remains at 0%. For example, imagine that a settlement has 15% tax income and the player decides to build the "Roman citzenship". When it's done, the settlement tax income would go down to 0%, I think that's fair enough. We can also use, as you said, the -% trade bonus. Say, -10% tax income and -10% trade bonus. Also, if the building costs a lot of money and has a long building time, chances are that the tax income rises in the meanwhile.

ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2014, 11:54:20 PM »
I'm not sure what the best option would be, but let's not stray too far off topic. I will make another thread dealing with Economy.
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