Discussion: New Faction Units

[ahowl11]

I have put this discussion off for far too long now, and since we are very close to testing 0.5 I have decided to make this thread for the next version.
So as the title reads, this is only for faction units. No AOR units right now. There will be some factional units that use AOR but that's different. So basically we need to fill up the rosters and make them balanced for the version after 0.5. We will do one faction at a time to concentrate our focus on. This is the time to research and get everything right. I do not plan on changing faction rosters much after we finish this discussion. We will make it easy and start with Rome.
As far as unit models etc, none of them are set in stone from 0.5. All are subject to change. I have put sources of where we can use models/textures for each unit in parenthesis.
This Discussion Thread will go hand in hand with the Unit Workshop! For every unit finalized here, a DMB and EDU entry will need to be made in the unit workshop thread. From that thread, we will be able to keep count of slots being used, and it will help us keep ourselves organized. Also it will be easy to copy/paste the DMB/EDU entries from that thread into the game files.


Roman Republic

Spoiler

We will not be doing a Camillan roster. After Mausalos had informed me about the slow transformation, I felt as if by the time our game starts that we would basically have a Polybian Roster. A Camillan roster can be reserved for another mod.

Polybian:
Proletarii - Current (Edited)
Velites - RTRPE
Hastati - RTRPE
Principes - RTRPE
Triarii - RTRPE
Equites - RTRPE
Italic Velites - RTRPE (Latin Velites) *AOR Only in Italy
Italic Hastati - RTRPE Unused *AOR Only in Italy
Italic Principes - RTRPE Unused *AOR Only in Italy
Italic Triarii - RTRPE Unused *AOR Only in Italy
Italic Equites - RTRPE Unused *AOR Only in Italy
Pedites Extraordinarii - Maraxus *AOR Only in Italy
Extraordinarii Cavalry - RTRPE (Italian Heavy Cavalry) *AOR Only in Italy

Marian:
Legionary Cohort - RTRPE
Legionary First Cohort - RTRPE
Veteran Cohort - Maraxus
Antesignani - Maraxus

Roman General - EB (Edited)

Models: 10
Units: 17

Republic of Carthage

Spoiler

Carthage is always tough when it comes to their factional roster because most of their armies were comprised of mercenaries. Carthage also had it's fair share of reforms as well and I think that we should have them experience one reform. This reform should change their infantry from hoplites to infantry similar to the Romans. The reform could take place around the 2nd Punic War. Where exactly, I am not sure. Hopefully someone else knows or can research the answer. For right now I am going to list all possibilities of units, based from what I have seen from other mods. I will not include a Carthaginian Phalanx unit because I don't believe it existed.

Citizen Hoplites - Maraxus *Only in Carthage
Punic Thureophoroi - ?? *Only in Punic Settlements
Early Liby-Phoenician Hoplites - RTRPE *Only in Punic Settlements
Late Liby-Phoenician Hoplites - RTRPE Edited *Only in Punic Settlements
Sacred Band - Maraxus *Only in Carthage*
Punic Peltasts - RTRPE *Only in Punic Settlements
Citizen Cavalry - Maraxus *Only in Carthage or Only in Punic Settlements?
Sacred Band Cavalry - Maraxus *Only in Carthage
African Infantry - ?? *Reform Unit

Libyan Hoplites - ?? *AOR only in Africa
Libyan Infantry?? - ?? *AOR only in Africa
Libyan Javelinmen - RTRVII (Edited) *AOR only in Africa
Libyan Cavalry?? - ?? *AOR only in Africa


Carthaginian Elephants - Current
Carthaginian War Elephants - Current

Antigonid Kingdom

Spoiler

Okay the Diadochi rosters can get sort of confusing so I'll list all the units that I've read about, and seen in mods for Macedon. There will be a lot of phalangites, there are the Professional phalangites and there are regional phalangites. I believe a mixture of both were used in the Macedonian Battle line. I do not believe that the Macedonians ever used the Thureophoroi or Thorakitai Infantry. Instead they used 'Peltasts' which were equipped similarly to Thureophoroi and Hypaspists. There is a lot of cavalry as well, there are two units that I have question marks next to, because I wouldn't know where to put them!

Missile Troops
Slingers - RTRPE Edited *Only in Greece
Psiloi - Current Edited *Only in Greece
Archers - Current *Only in Greece
Peltasts - RTRPE *Only in Greece
Kestros Slingers - RTRPE
Paionian Skirmishers *AOR Paionia

Pezhetairoi
Deuteroi - Current Levy Pikemen Edited; *Only in Greece
Leukaspides - ?? Younger Core, main line troop
Chalkaspides - RTRPE Edited; Veteran Core, main line troop
Kleruchoi - Current Phalanx Pikemen; Settlers
Allied Phalangites - RTRPE Pezhetairoi; From Greece and other client states
Asthetairoi - Inigo; Elite


Infantry
Hoplites - Current Edited
Thureophoroi - RTRPE
Hypaspists - RTRPE
Agema Hypaspists - RTRPE

Cavalry
Hippakontistai - Current Militia cavalry edited; *Only in Greece
Prodromoi - ??
Sarissophoroi - RTRPE
Xystophoroi - ??
Hetairoi - RTRPE

Seleucid Empire

Spoiler

Same issue as with Macedon. There is some confusion with some units. The Seleucids will have a more unique army than Macedon because of where they are, but as far as factional troops, not much will differ as you can see. A few were taken away and a few were added. That's all that makes the Seleucid faction roster stand out.

Missile Troops
Native Slingers *AOR Asia
Native Skirmishers *AOR Asia
Native Archers *AOR Asia
Peltasts
Neocretan Archers *Reform Unit
Agrianian Peltasts *AOR ??

Macedonian Phalangites
Pantodapoi *AOR Asia
Chalkaspides - Bronze Shields
Chrysaspides - Gold Shields
Agyraspides - Silver Shields
Kleruchoi - Settlers
Allied Phalangites

Infantry
Hoplites
Hypaspists
Thureophoroi
Thorakitai

Cavalry
Hippakontistai *AOR Asia
Prodromoi
Xystophoroi
Lonchophoroi *AOR ??
Agema
Hetairoi
Hellenic Cataphracts

Other
Scythed Chariots
Camel Corps
Indian War Elephants
Armoured Indian War Elephants

Ptolemaic Empire

Spoiler

Egypt is similar to both the Seleucids and Macedonians but they have something that the others don't, the Machimoi. These were just the basic troops but they were used quite often, especially at Raphia. The Ptolemies are going to be the closest faction to Carthage in regards to troop diversity since they used many mercenaries, specifically Jews and Galatians through out their history. Those are AOR troops though and will be saved for another thread.

Missile Troops
Slingers *AOR Egypt
Skirmishers *AOR Egypt
Machimoi Archers *AOR Egypt
Peltasts
Neocretan Archers *Reform Unit

Pezoi
Machimoi Phalangites *AOR Egypt
Stratiotai
Kleruchoi
Kleruchoi Agema

Infantry
Machimoi Infantry *AOR Egypt
Carian Light Infantry
Thureophoroi
Machairaphoroi
Epilektoi
Basilikon Agema

Cavalry
Hippakontistai *AOR Egypt
Machimoi Cavalry *AOR Egypt
Katoikoi Cavalry
Prodromoi
Machairaphoroi Cavalry
Xystophoroi
Hetairoi

Other
African Elephants

Hellenic Kingdoms

Spoiler

The Hellenic Kingdoms are a mix of troops from the different Kingdoms that were around in 280 BC. Most of the troop types will be similar to the Diadochi with exception to some elite troops. By AOR these units will be restricted to their native kingdoms so we won't have Bactrian Cataphracts in Epirus.

Missile Troops
Psiloi
Slingers
Archers
Peltasts
Native Slingers
Native Skirmishers
Native Archers

Phalangites
Deuteroi/Pantodopoi/Machimoi
Kleruchoi
Tarentine Leukaspides
Agema Phalangites

Infantry
Bactrian Hillmen
Hoplites
Thureophoroi
Thorakitai
Hypaspists
Chaeonian Agema
Bactrian Agema

Cavalry
Hippakontistai
Prodromoi
Hippeis
Bactrian Hippeis
Xystophoroi
Hetairoi
Bactrian Cataphracts
Bactrian Cataphract Horse Archers

Other
Indian Elephants
African Elephants
Syrian Elephants

Greek Cities & Greek States

Spoiler

I have combined these two factions' rosters because they are super factions, meaning they consist of multiple smaller factions. We still need to discuss which faction gets what states but game wise both factions will be able to recruit any of these units if they hold the right settlements. I will break up the roster based on region that way it is more organized.

Common Troops available Everywhere

Spoiler

Missile Troops
Slingers
Psiloi
Archers
Peltasts

Infantry
Ekdromoi
Hoplites
Thureophoroi

Cavalry
Prodromoi
Hippeis

Sparta

Spoiler

Missile Troops
Helot Slingers
Helot Javelinmen
Helot Archers
Euzonoi *Reform Unit

Infantry
Krypteia
Neodamōdeis
Periokoi Hoplites
Skiritai
Spartiates
Spartan Pezoi *Reform Unit

Achaean League

Spoiler

Neocretan Ephebes
Epilektoi
Achaean Pezoi *Reform Unit
Thorakitai *Reform Unit

Rhodes

Spoiler

Rhodian Slingers
Carian Warriors
Rhodian Hoplites

Crete

Spoiler

Cretan Slingers
Cretan Archers
Cretan Hoplites

Syracuse

Spoiler

Peltophoroi
Syracusan Hoplites
Syracusan Hippeis
Thorakitai *Reform Unit

Athens

Spoiler

Peripoloi
Metoikoi Hoplites
Iphicratean Phalangites
Athenian Hoplites

Boetian League

Spoiler

Boetian Hoplites
Boetian Pezoi *Reform Unit

Bosporan Kingdom

Spoiler

Taurian Skirmishers
Bosporan Thureophoroi
Bosporan Hoplites
Sarmatian Cavalry *Reform Unit

Massalia

Spoiler

Massilian Archers
Massilian Hoplites
Thorakitai *Reform Unit
Ligurian Warriors

Thessaly

Spoiler

Thessalian Cavalry

Aetolian League

Spoiler

Aetolian Slingers
Aetolian Peltasts
Aetolian Hoplites
Aetolian Pezoi *Reform Unit
Aetolian Cavalry

Pontus

Spoiler

Pontus from what I know is very diverse, and will probably end up having a large roster.

Missile Troops
Slingers
Skirmishers
Archers
Scythian Archers *AOR Scythia

Infantry
Pontic Spearmen
Hoplites
Oreioi
Pontic Pezoi *Reform Unit
Slave Phalangites *Reform Unit
Chalkaspides *Reform Unit
Imitation Legionaries *Reform Unit
Colchian Spearmen *AOR Colchis
Taurian Infantry *AOR Crimea

Cavalry
Hippakontistai
Armenian Heavy Cavalry
Cappadocian Noble Cavalry
Scythian Horse Archers *AOR Scythia
Sarmatian Horse Archers *AOR Sarmatia

Parthia

Spoiler

Missile Troops
Iranian Foot Archers
Iranian Slingers

Infantry
Iranian Infantry
Parthian Spearmen *Reform Unit

Cavalry
Iranian Horse Archers
Parthian Lesser Nobility
Parthian Heavy Cavalry
Royal Retainers *Bodyguard Unit

[Mausolos of Caria]

A good thread I also waited for!

Now onto your first question: That's very difficult. Obviously there weren't any actual reforms that could be recognised as such. What is described as the Polybian system is just the Roman equipment as depicted in Polybios' writings and confirmed by archaelogical finds, in difference to the earlier forms at the time of Camillus and the very early Republic. The Manipular system with the Triplex Acies as such was already introduced in the early 3rd century, while auxiliaries and the new officer structures were only implemented by Scipio during the 2nd Punic War. So we could say the whole ''reform'' happened over a time of not less than 100 years.

So what does that mean for the game? First I'm only an advisor here so I won't, can't and don't want to make a final decision  Maybe Rome could start with some ancient units of Camillian style (not sure if they would still be similar to hoplites in 280 BC) who can't be recruited (like Pikemen on Empire) and then we have some militia, but mainly ''Polybian'' units for them.

[ahowl11]

Hmmm I think it would be easier to just do away with a Camillan Army. It would take up a lot of space, and we aren't trying to be the next EB either. So I'll edit it out. I think it will make things a lot easier.

So now, I can slot the Extraordinarii in as the elite troops.

I just need help with the Marian Auxilia, but I'm going to rent the Kindle version of this book. Hopefully I can get some answers.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Republican-Roman-Army-Sourcebook/dp/0415178800/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1389320584&sr=8-1&keywords=the+republican+roman+army

Also, should the regular Polybian troops only be recruitable from Rome/Capua or just Rome? And would there be an Italic Velite unit?

[Bercor]

Does RTRVII use Camillan units? I can't remember...

[ahowl11]

I'm not sure, but regardless we don't need them now.

[Mausolos of Caria]

I'm pretty sure RTR VII used Camillan units. Leaving them out, at least for now, will do no harm. As for the auxiliae, there was that thread on the R2TR forum, but actual units are mostly only accredited for the Augustan age.

I don't see a problem with Italic velites, everyone's got skirmishers after all. How do you want to restrict the recruitment exactly? Would you be able to build legionary barracks in other towns later or would we completely restrict the recruitment of Polybian legions to Rome/Capua and only make it possible to recruit Marian troops everywhere? I think on RTR 6 you were able to construct a building called ''Roman citizenship'', which enabled you to build a legionary camp where you would train new cohorts. Maybe the Polybian units should indeed be restricted to Rome and Capua and after the Marian ''reforms'' one could use that citizenship principle to recruit troops otherwhere.

If we want to keep it historical, the citizenship building could have the following effects:
* Enables you to construct legionary barracks
* + 50 % public order (since the population would be happy to be acknowledged in such a way)
* - 20 % income (to reflect economic losses in Italy and minor unhappiness at the court/in Latium. OR, but I don't think that's possible, it should decrease the public order in Latium & Capua, which would be the most realistic. At any rate, there should be a negative effect to giving citizenship to everyone since there was good reason that Rome hesitated to do so for five centuries)

[ahowl11]

Yeah I think tying the barracks to citizenship is a good idea. Rome/Capua will have it initially with the other Italian cities being able to train at first their own style of units such as Bruttian Infantry or Lucanian Skirmishers. Then with an army barracks or something the native troops would disappear and you would be able to train Italic Hastati etc. As for Marian Auxilia, I think they probably relied on basic mercenaries. Cretan Archers, Numidian Cavalry, Gallic troops etc. that fought in their native styles. So we don't need to worry about that. I've also added Funditores and Sagitarii to the list. Sagitarii will be a factional AOR unit for the Marian Army, but what about the Funditores? AOR or no?

Also, as for recruitment with the Romans, Res Gestae has a pretty interesting Script where you can recruit an entire Roman Legion in one turn.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?51049-Some-other-Add-ons-!
Post#2

[Alavaria]

If we want to keep it historical, the citizenship building could have the following effects:
* Enables you to construct legionary barracks
* + 50 % public order (since the population would be happy to be acknowledged in such a way)
* - 20 % income (to reflect economic losses in Italy and minor unhappiness at the court/in Latium. OR, but I don't think that's possible, it should decrease the public order in Latium & Capua, which would be the most realistic. At any rate, there should be a negative effect to giving citizenship to everyone since there was good reason that Rome hesitated to do so for five centuries)

Note that if you use -% Tax Income Bonus, you can't reduce a settlement below 0% Bonus. Hardly anything in Vanilla RTW gives the bonus in the first place ...

Amusingly this means the building would be a great thing to build in all the random backwater areas that might grow too large, which you are holding just to hold it.

[ahowl11]

So what would you suggest?

[Alavaria]

Right.

Well, if you like the (economy is done via income tax bonus) approach, then there's not necessarily a problem.

One could also give it a -trade bonus. (Though I think you can't have a settlement go below 0 trade bonus as well).

Other approaches I've seen include a long build time and/or a high cost for the building. In particular, players will be less tempted to start building it in every frontier settlement because (1) could be building other faster/cheaper buildings for public order and (2) could lose the settlement, which I think means you lose the cash and turns of building the citizenship building.

[Mausolos of Caria]

Well I'm not the game mechanics expert here  Do whatever you want, but there should definitely be a negative effect to giving citizenship to everyone. Long building times and high costs might just be right, though, resembling the lengthy progress of romanizing the people and building up the necessary administration to naturalise the natives.

About the funditores, to be honest I've never really heard of them outside of mods, so I'll have to research that. For now excuse me, but it's my birthday 

[Alavaria]

Yes, you reminded me of the method used in I think FOE or somewhere.

Instead of one long expensive building, it's a line that you "upgrade" ... and some of the initial ones have happiness/law penalties as people are unhappy you are trying to "romanize" them. After you upgrade it some more, they're assimilated and can train in the roman style of troops and become less unhappy etc

[Bercor]

Well I'm not the game mechanics expert here  Do whatever you want, but there should definitely be a negative effect to giving citizenship to everyone. Long building times and high costs might just be right, though, resembling the lengthy progress of romanizing the people and building up the necessary administration to naturalise the natives.

About the funditores, to be honest I've never really heard of them outside of mods, so I'll have to research that. For now excuse me, but it's my birthday 

Congrats then!

[Bercor]

Right.

Well, if you like the (economy is done via income tax bonus) approach, then there's not necessarily a problem.

One could also give it a -trade bonus. (Though I think you can't have a settlement go below 0 trade bonus as well).

Other approaches I've seen include a long build time and/or a high cost for the building. In particular, players will be less tempted to start building it in every frontier settlement because (1) could be building other faster/cheaper buildings for public order and (2) could lose the settlement, which I think means you lose the cash and turns of building the citizenship building.

I see... Well, even if it's impossible to reduce the tax income to below 0%, we can at least ensure that it remains at 0%. For example, imagine that a settlement has 15% tax income and the player decides to build the "Roman citzenship". When it's done, the settlement tax income would go down to 0%, I think that's fair enough. We can also use, as you said, the -% trade bonus. Say, -10% tax income and -10% trade bonus. Also, if the building costs a lot of money and has a long building time, chances are that the tax income rises in the meanwhile.

[ahowl11]

I'm not sure what the best option would be, but let's not stray too far off topic. I will make another thread dealing with Economy.