The Classical Phalanx - over-arm or underarm?

[Bercor]

Yeah, the heavy bronze cuirasses that the white hair guy refers to in the second video were completely outdated in the Hellenistic period. Almost no one used it. So, that "restric movement" argument doesn't quite hold up.

What are the types of bronze cuirasses that appear in a bunch of the RTW mods?

Most mods are not completely historically accurate.

In regards to the bronze bell and muscle cuirasses, they disappeared from mainland Greece around 480 BC. Linen cuirasses had appeared around 550 BC and gradually replaced the bell cuirass. Muscle cuirasses first appeared around the same time that the bell cuirass finally disappeared, but they were never as popular. They were however used in the 5th and 4th century BC and in the Hellenistic and Roman periods the bronze muscle cuirass became the "uniform" of senior officers.

[Alavaria]

So you'd basically never see a "unit" all wearing muscle cuirasses, just their officers. (The men would most likely have something less ostentatious.)

[Jubal]

Exactly.

Does anyone know if there have been good academic studies of fighting styles as depicted on vase paintings?

[Bercor]

Most mods use exceptional equipment, in the sense that it was only used by some individuals, mostly officers, and make it the standard equipment of an elite unit (an example of this is nomad units with horned horses or the hellenic cataphracts units with the face mask). Personally, I prefer to give that unusual equipment to the officers, as they were the ones that most probably actually used it.

[Silver Wolf]

It's a trade-off really. And I mostly welcome it. And here's why:
The problem is that if you equip every unit with standard equipment, you're going to end up with a very visually dull mod, despite your best effort. And that's extraordinarily frustrating if you're a modeler, like myself.

[Bercor]

I understand your point but don't quite agree with it. Ever played RTRVII? They use standard equipment for every unit and, yet, each unit looks distinctive. I think it's possible to make them look interesting, while also historically accurate. Remember, you can only use one set of equipment for each unit, but you have various historical and interesting examples of standard equipment that you can use, for example. Plus seeing an unit of horned horses galloping through the battlefield just looks ridiculous.

[Alavaria]

Yeah, all hoplites use the same round-type shield, and the oval shaped shields are also about the same between them. But their designs are different, and it looks pretty great (though RTW sadly doesn't let you have different styles in a single unit). There's different styles of armor around, most mods have different colors or designs. Colorful !

Only the player faction would do something like "lets have all the line troops in metal armor". Or it's the Romans

[Bercor]

Yeah, but it's good they do. I have to admit that I feel strangely delighted when bashing those shiny romans with some stiking barbarians.

[Alavaria]

Well, I recently fought against these horned mounted troops in RSII, it's somewhat satisfying to be fighting all these elites that are ridiculously powerful. I imagine any victorious army would tell tales of how everyone they killed had muscle cuirasses on...

BUT

Someone mentioned that in the relevant time period, hoplites weren't using the dense heavy formations they had earlier. In a looser formation, does one style of spear use have an advantage over the other?

[Clockwork]

In less dense formations underhand is even more preferable. Although get too loose and a hoplon is just weighing you down and its worth discarding (aside from respective punishments for deserting). It isn't a fighting shield it's a formation shield.

[Alavaria]

That does explain why many of their lighter units (that also use javelins etc) used pelte shields. Though I think the spear-using ones of those are generally depicted as overarm in mods. I guess there's no reason for that since they are in loose formation instead of interlocking shields.

[Bercor]

Some people (cough... cough... EB) still argue that overhand was used even when not in formation and with smaller shields.

[Jubal]

I agree with Colossus, overhand makes no sense at all out of formation except as a throwing action.

[Bercor]

One of the arguments it's that tribesmen in Africa still use the overhand stance till this very day.

[Jubal]

Zulu spears I'm pretty sure were used underhand... an overhand makes sense if perhaps the spear is throwable so it can be easily hurled in a pinch? Can't see a good reason other than that.

Also, for out of formation fighting compare the pretty good control on this guy's underhand grip:

To this farce: