Author Topic: Ferguson, MO: Unrest Continues  (Read 13963 times)

Jubal

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Re: Ferguson, MO: Unrest Continues
« Reply #45 on: December 10, 2014, 08:54:18 PM »
Yeah, there are some good eggs (pun wholly intended and embraced) in the police force. But people having enough food to scrape by and live shouldn't be dependent on the charity of cops - that's just adding the power of life to the power of death they apparently already have, which is an improvement but doesn't solve the problem!
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comrade_general

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Re: Ferguson, MO: Unrest Continues
« Reply #46 on: December 10, 2014, 09:28:00 PM »
I just thought the quote I added was hilarious so I had to post it. :P

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Re: Ferguson, MO: Unrest Continues
« Reply #47 on: December 24, 2014, 10:59:33 PM »
So more things seem to be happening on this front.

Firstly, 2 officers murdered in New York, apparently in retaliation for the recent killings http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30566232

To me, this shows that the US has a violence problem rather than simply a race problem.

Secondly, back to St. Louis, a black man was shot after apparently pointing a loaded handgun at a police officer http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30596531

I honestly don't know what the protesters would have had the policeman do. If someone threatens your life, such as by pointing a gun at you, it's reasonable to strike pre-emptively with lethal force.

I've heard some claim that there was no gun, but I can't see how the police could expect to get away with making up something like that. Some say the confrontation shouldn't have happened, but the police should be able to question anyone without having their lives threatened.

What's peoples take on this?

Jubal

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Re: Ferguson, MO: Unrest Continues
« Reply #48 on: December 24, 2014, 11:36:57 PM »
Quote
the US has a violence problem rather than simply a race problem

It has both, surely? Disproportionately this is a violence problem that is comprised of the armed wing of the government shooting people of a specific racial origin. Plus a smaller number of people from that racial group shooting back at the (overwhelmingly white) police.

Quote
I can't see how the police could expect to get away with making up something like that.
I can (not saying they did make it up, I've no idea, but I wouldn't discount the possibility so fast). The legal system is obviously hugely biased in favour of the police, and some US cops are getting away quite literally with murder. In the current climate, I have great difficulty trusting the US police on anything they don't have video evidence of, not least because on several recent cases across the states video evidence has proven them to be lying their asses off. And they're still not getting convicted when that does happen.

Whilst I clearly don't condone pointing guns at the police, we are talking about a country where the police shoot black people, many of them totally innocent, on a not irregular basis. I can absolutely see why some black people in the current climate may simply have reached a point where they regard the police as simply a body of people trying to kill them, and as such will be much more inclined to wave firearms at them on the grounds that for all they know, the cop might shoot them anyway. Especially if they're actually involved in crime, but more broadly as well; a perception among US police that black lives are expendable does genuinely seem to exist and be worryingly strong. The police in places like St Louis are in a total legitimacy crisis in my opinion, essentially being wholly unsupported by the communities they're theoretically working in/with - and a very radical change of policy is needed to try and cut down on what may well soon become a cycle of reprisals, violence and killing.
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comrade_general

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Re: Ferguson, MO: Unrest Continues
« Reply #49 on: December 25, 2014, 02:04:33 AM »
There is video of the incident.

Jubal

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Re: Ferguson, MO: Unrest Continues
« Reply #50 on: December 25, 2014, 02:09:33 AM »
In which case fair enough - but the generic points in my post all still stand.
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Re: Ferguson, MO: Unrest Continues
« Reply #51 on: December 25, 2014, 02:40:09 AM »
There are black cops kill white men, black cops kill black men, white cops kill white men, but the news media like to drum up unrest because it makes them money. Let's say in a neighborhood 3 black men and 1 white guy commit a crime in which case 3 black men and 1 white guy are arrested. Is that racism? Statistically blacks commit more crimes so naturally more of them get arrested and generally more attention from police. I'm not condoning the shoot first ask questions later at all, that's just poor policing. I just think the media is cashing in on the race thing.

Jubal

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Re: Ferguson, MO: Unrest Continues
« Reply #52 on: December 25, 2014, 02:51:54 AM »
I think the issue is that there's a circular element, part of the reason you get those higher crime rates in black communities is that they feel more alienated from the system as a result of having all-white authority figures, racial profiling used very heavy handedly, etc. Of course your example isn't racism, but the poor training and behaviour of cops is happening in a way where the people who get shot, some of whom are clearly not criminals at all, are people getting targetted specifically because of their race. And that IS racism in a very systemic way. The fact a slightly higher percentage of crimes are committed by black people does not make being black sufficient grounds to suspect someone of a crime, which is how some police forces are using it.
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Re: Ferguson, MO: Unrest Continues
« Reply #53 on: December 25, 2014, 03:02:18 AM »
Not individual black people but some neighborhoods just have that dangerous feeling environment. The "'hood" if you will. Also there are plenty of black and Hispanic authority figures, and it doesn't make sense to blame the authority for keeping these people living like they do. Look up some of Charles Barkley's recent quotes.

Jubal

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Re: Ferguson, MO: Unrest Continues
« Reply #54 on: December 25, 2014, 03:13:37 AM »
Not solely blaming the authorities - I think there are wider issues with the whole system - but I don't think the way police treat black citizens in many cases is at all helpful to any attempt to integrate those communities into mainstream society. The police play along with the negative expectations of these communities when they could be challenging them more effectively.

And sure, some neighbourhoods everywhere feel dangerous, but its not just those areas we're talking about. The black guy who got shot for carrying a LARP sword wasn't walking in a rough area, and there are plenty of stories about police stopping people even in pretty upmarket areas of New York despite having no grounds for suspicion of them. I feel like a certain preconception, based on race, has found itself deeply ingrained in US police forces even far from the areas where it originated, and I think that's a) unfairly racist and b) helps reaffirm and provide fuel to its own concepts. It's not the whole story of course, but its a self fulfilling prophecy to an extent. And its something I think could be tackled, and it'd help with these violence problems somewhat if it was tackled.
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Re: Ferguson, MO: Unrest Continues
« Reply #55 on: December 25, 2014, 03:39:41 AM »
Surely something to point out here is that like 0.0001% of arrests are even made news. That tiny fraction of a percent get infinitely more coverage than all the others promoting an unfair bias in favour of whatever happens to be fashionable news. Which is police killing black guys. The idea that arguing that 'a majority' or 'a minority' of cases on either side is pointless surely? For fairness, each case would literally have to be looked at, decided on whether force was necessary, each cops service record and history looked at to see already established prejudices or if they came about since joining the police etc, etc.....Point being there is a lot of bs that can account for any of the risk factors. For once I don't really have a stance, just pointing something out that seems to be being missed. And the news is the top proponent of bad science. Any news. Ever. Even science news.
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Re: Ferguson, MO: Unrest Continues
« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2015, 06:43:44 PM »
Just when things seemed to have calmed down, Baltimore....

Evidence that there is a more widespread problem than certain commentators would like to admit? Almost certainly.
But it should be noted that if one sets aside a recent influx of up and coming middle classes, much of Baltimore looks A LOT like Ferguson...
Any thoughts?
Blame Jubal....