Author Topic: Naval Mechanics  (Read 7514 times)

DCLXVIMRTRVEBLAKKOKKVLTDCLXVI

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Naval Mechanics
« on: July 19, 2016, 05:11:38 PM »
Hi, I made descriptions for the new ships that I'm going to add. I based my descriptions on vanilla RTW, RTRVII, Metro Naval Mod and information from the internet including Wikipedia. What do you think? I'm interested in your opinion.

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{naval_bireme}Bireme

{naval_bireme_descr}    \n\nLength: 20m
\nBreadth: 2m
\nDisplacement (Manned): 15 tonnes
\nOarsmen: 50
\nMarines & Officers: nil

\n\nThe two-level Penekonter (the Bireme Diere) may be claimed to have been the first true warship, designed to wield the ram, a purely anti-ship weapon. Appearing in around 800 BC, the two-level Penekonter was probably an invention of the Phoenicians.

\n\nThe hull was a shortened, lightened version of the single-level penekonter, with a manned displacement of around 15 tonnes, with the second file of oarsmen sitting in the hold, so that there was little room in the ship for either cargo or passengers.  It eclipsed the older single-level Penekonter because it was able to manoever at least twice as fast, sprint speed being at around 7.5kts.

\n\nThe Bireme was a successful type of ship, and although it was obsolete as a warship-of-the-line from around 500 BC, with the appearance of the Trireme, it nonetheless endured throughout the Classical Period and into the Hellenistic Period as a scout and auxiliary vessel, moving in front of a fleet to report on the approach of an enemy (Livy, 34.35.5; Polybius, 1.53.9).

\n\nVarious versions of the two-level Penekonter featured in the Hellenistic Period. The Liburnian was a bireme that was "cataphracted" or decked, and presumably was first developed by the Liburni, an Illyrian tribe (Appian, 10.1.3). The term 'Liburnian' became a general Roman designation for all light two oar-level galleys built with a ram. The Liburnian were noted for their speed, being originally a pirate raider. Phillip V of Macedon is reported as building Illyrian-style Lemboi(Polybius, 5.101.2).

{naval_bireme_descr_short}    A bireme is a small galley with a ram at the prow. It is powered by sail and two banks of oars.\n\nThe ship has a good turn of speed and is fairly "handy" with a good crew - the ram makes the bireme a weapon rather than just transport for fighting men. A bireme is outclassed in combat by a trireme's speed and weight, but its combat power should not be underestimated.
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{naval_trireme}    Trireme

{naval_trireme_descr}    \n\nLength: 40m
\nBreadth: 3.6 m
\nDisplacement (Manned): 48 tonnes
\nOarsmen: 170
\nMarines & Officers: 15

\n\nThe Trireme, or Trieres, was the first fully developed ship of the line and represented a significant evolution from the Penekonter. Thucydides attributes the invention of the Trireme to the shipwright Aminocles of Corinth in about 700 BC, but some scholars believe it was first developed in Phoenicia and is first described as a warship in 539 BC by Herodotos.

\n\nThe Tirieme had three levels of oarsmen on each side of the vessel, a total of some 170 oarsmen, each working a single oar generally 9.5cubits (4.66m or 15ft3in) long. Manned, a Trireme displaced around 48 tonnes, three times as much as the smaller two-level Penekonter (Bireme).

\n\nThe Trireme excelled in speed, and was the fastest oared warship of the sixth century BC. It was developed at a time when the eastern Mediterranean was becoming prosperous, and there was a greater need for Greek and Phoenician city-states to protect trade and project naval power.

\n\nXenophon reveals that the Trireme could maintain a speed of 7.5kts ‘for a long day’, (6.4.2) and had a sprint speed of some 9.5kts. This ensured that a Trireme could catch any typical pirate ship (typically Penekonters). While eclipsed as a ship-of-the-line in the Hellenistic Period by larger warships, such as the Quinquereme and the Polyremes, the Trireme nonetheless remained in service as a lighter reconnaissance and auxiliary warship, used to tow transports, carry troops and undertake escort work. Scipo used "Threes" as scouts at the siege of Utica in 203 BC.

\n\nIn the Hellenistic Period the Trireme was typically "cataphracted", that is, decked, so that the oarsmen were protected from missile fire, as well as from the sun and weather.

\n\nThe Trireme was fundamentally designed to deliver a ram attack on rival warships, and hence its design relied on speed and manoeverability. Its 170 oarsmen were critical, and experienced rowers were highly valued. The ram was effectively the only weapon, and the vessel's sides were highly vulnerable to attack. Everything depended on speed and agility, and non-propulsive crew members were limited to a few sailors and helmsmen, plus a handful of marines to throw off grappling hooks and shoot an occasional arrow. These characteristics gave galley tactics, of which the Athenians and Phoenicians were masters, an explosive, all-or-nothing character. Pivoting and darting to the attack, a well-handled, well-rowed galley could penetrate the enemy line, strike from the side, sink its opponent, and disengage with impunity. The usual effect of ramming was to swamp the ship rammed. Sometimes, after ramming a ship, a galley would prevent the ships from separating, and instead board it and begin a hand-to-hand fight. Breaking the oars of an enemy ship, and thereby disabling it, was a favourite tactic of Carthaginian and Rhodian galleys: boarding was preferred by Roman fleets; other tactics included missile attacks with javelins, slings, bows, even catapults and fire pots.

\n\nOarsmen were freemen, recruited from among the poor, and attracted by the lure of regular pay. Coastal cities were a source of naval recruitment, and so regions like Phoenicia and Greece featured in the mustering of rowers for fleets.

\n\nAncient warships remained in sight of the coast, for both ease of navigation, and because of fundamental logistical constraints. Galleys required a frequent re-supply of food and fresh water for their large, sweating, crews, and so the galley had a short range. Galleys, being designed for speed, were very vulnerable to storms. Galleys could use small bays and beaches as harbours, travel up rivers, and navigate in water only a meter or so deep. At least as early as 429 BC (Thucydides 2.56.2), but probably earlier (Herodotus 6.48.2, 7.21.2, 7.97), galleys were adapted to carry horses to provide cavalry support to troops also landed by galley.

\n\nGalleys were hauled out of the water whenever possible to keep them dry, light and fast and free from worm, rot and seaweed. Galleys were usually over-wintered in ship sheds or slips, of which there are extensive archeological remains at Carthage and Athens. There is evidence that the hulls of Punic galleys were sheathed in lead, and constructed from prefabricated wooden components. The construction, crewing and maintenance of galleys was a complex technical undertaking, only able to be undertaken by a city-state that was able to muster the timber and technical resources and expertise.

{naval_trireme_descr_short}The Trireme was a powerful warship, propelled by three banks of oars and a sail. It could ram opposing ships and launch boarding actions.
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{naval_quadrireme}    Quadrireme
{naval_quadrireme_descr}    \n\nLength: 40 m
\nBreadth: 5.6 m (18ft)
\nDisplacement (Manned): 60 tonnes
\nOarsmen: 176
\nMarines & Officers: 75

\n\nThe Quadrireme, or ‘the Four’ (Tetreres), was the lightest of the heavy wargalleys of the Hellenistic Period, and was developed from the bireme, by double-manning the oars.

\n\nThe Quadrireme was famous for its speed and maneoverability. One such vessel belonging to Hannibal ‘the Rhodian’ famously avoided the Roman blockade at Lilybaion to re-supply its Punic defenders in the First Punic War. The Quadrireme remained the favourite warship of Rhodes, the Rhodians continuing to use naval tactics of maneover and ram.

\n\nAristotle is quoted by elder Pliny (NH, 7.207) as having attributed the invention of the Four to the Carthaginians. This design was no doubt copied by Carthage’s naval rivals, particularly Dionysius I of Syracuse. The Four was also found in the fleets of Alexander the Great during the siege of Tyre in 332 BC (Curtius, 4.3.14), again suggesting that it was common among the Phoenicians, from whom Alexander drew so much of his naval strength. The growing popularity of the Four meant that thereafter it also appeared in the fleets of the Diadochi, Athens, Pergamum and Rhodes.

\n\nThe Four was relatively low on the waterline, only some 2.2 meters (Livy, 20.25.2-8), and so was substantially lower than “the Five” (by approximately ½ meter). The Fours were about 5.6 meters (18ft) in breadth overall, and so was slim enough to fit into slipsheds built for threes with outriggers. The Four was vulnerable to boarding and missile attacks from larger decked war galleys like the Five, and so relied on its agility and speed to deliver a ram attack. The Four had 22 oars on each side at each of the two levels, and each of these oars was double manned, hence the name “the Four”.

\n\nThere were forty-four oars a side, and a total oar crew of 176. Compared to the Trireme, or Three, the Four was a smaller two-level ship, cheaper to build, and with double manning and a smaller crew, more economical to run. Although classed as one of the heavier galleys, she was fast and manoeuvrable. Her low profile offered less windage, and thus easier rowing in adverse conditions.

\n\nOarsmen were freemen, recruited from among the poor, and attracted by the lure of regular pay. Coastal cities were a source of naval recruitment, and so regions like Phoenicia and Greece featured in the mustering of rowers for fleets.

\n\nAncient warships remained in sight of the coast, for both ease of navigation, and because of fundamental logistical constraints. Galleys required a frequent re-supply of food and fresh water for their large, sweating, crews, and so the galley had a short range, also, being designed for speed, were very vulnerable to storms. Galleys could use small bays and beaches as harbours, travel up rivers, and navigate in water only a meter or so deep. At least as early as 429 BC (Thucydides 2.56.2), but probably earlier (Herodotus 6.48.2, 7.21.2, 7.97), galleys were adapted to carry horses to provide cavalry support to troops also landed by galley.

\n\nGalleys were hauled out of the water whenever possible to keep them dry, light and fast and free from worm, rot and seaweed. Galleys were usually over-wintered in ship sheds or slips, of which there are extensive archeological remains at Carthage and Athens. There is evidence that the hulls of Punic galleys were sheathed in lead, and constructed from prefabricated wooden components. The construction, crewing and maintenance of galleys was a complex technical undertaking, only able to be undertaken by a city-state that was able to muster the timber and technical resources and expertise.
{naval_quadrireme_descr_short}The Quadrireme (or Four) was invented by Carthage around 368BC and remained in general use until 31BC, although a limited number were used in later centuries. Propelled by two banks of oars per side, each oar being double manned, the Quadrireme was capable of reaching astounding speeds.
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{naval_quinquireme}    Quinquireme
{naval_quinquireme_descr}    \n\nLength: 45m
\nBreadth: 6.5m (18ft)
\nDisplacement (Manned): 100 tonnes
\nOarsmen: 300
\nMarines & Officers: 120

\n\nThe Quinquereme, generally known as ‘the Five’ (Penteres), was the standard warship-of-the-line in the Hellenistic Period, a heavy war galley, decked and formidable, developed from the three by double-manning the oars on two levels.

\n\nOriginally, the Five was first built to serve as flagships for fleets of Threes, but they were built in ever greater numbers so that by the time of the First Punic War (264-241 BC) Rome and Carthage had entire fleets comprised of Fives, and were using them on a scale not equaled afterwards (Polybius, 1.36.9-10; 1.25.7-9). The outstanding military difference between the Three and the Five was the number of boarding troops carried, although the Five retained the ram as a secondary weapon of opportunity. The use of towers erected on board ships for offensive and defensive action is also attested in the sources (Livy, 24.34.6; Ap. CW 4.72; Athenaios 5 206d-209e). In addition, the Five was said to be more seaworthy than the Three (Diodorus, 14.47.7; 14.50.4; 14.58.2).

\n\nThe invention of the Five is typically attributed to Dionysius I of Syracuse in around 399 BC, as an evolution of the Three (Diodorus, 13.91.3-36). It is likely that an alternative design was developed in Phoenicia, which, like the Phoenician Three, had no outrigger, instead the oar system is entirely above the hull proper, which is fully decked, and the oar crew are more or less on one level instead of being superimposed, with a heavy side deck. This distinctive Phoenician design and oar system was adopted by both Carthage and Rome (who copied their Fives from a captured Carthaginian ship).

\n\nThe Five had three rows of oars, 90 oars a side, with two men to an oar at two of the three levels. The Five was cataphracted (decked), so that the oarsmen were protected from missiles, as well as the sun and weather. It was significantly larger than previous war galleys, with a total of some 300 rowers and 120 decksoldiers, catapultmen, specialists and officers (Polybius, 1.26.7) and it displacemed some 100 tonnes when manned. The increased breadth on the waterline meant that the Five was slower than smaller war galleys, although it could still sustain speeds of 7kts for long periods, with a sprint speed of 8kts. There was room and buoyancy to accommodate additional oarsmen, and strengthened sides to resist ram attacks from smaller, more nimble war galleys. With a fighting deck some 3 meters (10 Roman feet) above the waterline, the five was well suited to delivering missile and boarding attacks. The five also ushered in an increased reliance on using warships as platforms for artillery.

\n\nThe Carthaginians preferred to rely upon tactics of maneover and ramming, dependant upon superior Punic ship design and skilled crews. Well-handled and well-rowed, able to make quick turns (anastrophe), the galley aimed to penetrate or outflank the enemy line, strike from the side, sink its opponent, and disengage with impunity (known as the deikplous and periplous tactics respectively). The usual effect of ramming was to swamp the ship rammed. Sometimes, after ramming a ship, a galley would prevent the ships from separating, and instead board it and begin a hand-to-hand fight. Breaking the oars of an enemy ship, and thereby disabling it, was a favourite tactic of Carthaginian and Rhodian galleys. Boarding was the preferred tactic of Roman fleets; other tactics included missile attacks with javelins, slings, bows, even catapults and fire pots.

\n\nThe large crews of the Five meant that fleets required ever greater numbers of rowers. Oarsmen were freemen, recruited from among the poor, and attracted by the lure of regular pay. Polybius gives a detailed description of Rome training volunteers as oarsmen in 261 BC (Polybius, 1.21.1-2). Coastal cities were a source of naval recruitment, and so regions like Cyprus, Phoenicia and Greece featured in the mustering of rowers for fleets. The decksoldiers of galley fleets were often drawn from field armies.

\n\nAncient warships remained in sight of the coast, for both ease of navigation, and because of fundamental logistical constraints. Galleys required a frequent re-supply of food and fresh water for their large, sweating, crews, and so the galley had a short range. Galleys, being designed for speed, were very vulnerable to storms. Galleys could use small bays and beaches as harbours, travel up rivers, and navigate in water only a meter or so deep. At least as early as 429 BC (Thucydides 2.56.2), but probably earlier (Herodotus 6.48.2, 7.21.2, 7.97), galleys were adapted to carry horses to provide cavalry support to troops also landed by galley.

\n\nGalleys were hauled out of the water whenever possible to keep them dry, light and fast and free from worm, rot and seaweed. Galleys were usually over-wintered in ship sheds or slips (navalia), of which there are extensive archaeological remains at Carthage and Athens. There is evidence that the hulls of Punic galleys were sheathed in lead, and that they were constructed from prefabricated wooden components. The construction, crewing and maintenance of galleys was a complex technical undertaking, only able to be undertaken by a city-state that was able to muster the timber and technical resources and expertise.

{naval_quinquireme_descr_short}The Quinquireme (or Five) was a powerful, but lumbering, warship intended for fleet actions. Its mass makes it hard to sink.\n\nThe bulk of the crew are rowers as there are five men to each oar; this pulling power is good, but maintaining ramming or battle speed is very tiring for the men. Consequently, quinquiremes also carry a detachment of marines and some shipboard artillery as means of attack - when you can't be sure of ramming an opponent, bombardment or boarding become the most effective tactics.
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{naval_corvus}    Quinquereme with Corvus

{naval_corvus_descr}    \n\nLength: 45m
\nBreadth: 6.5m (18ft)
\nDisplacement (Manned): 100 tonnes
\nOarsmen: 300
\nMarines & Officers: 120

\n\nThe Quinquereme, generally known as ‘the Five’, was rated as one of the larger warships (Maioris Formae) of the Roman fleet.

\n\nOriginally, the Five was first built to serve as flagships for fleets of Threes, but they were built in ever greater numbers so that by the time of the First Punic War (264-241 BC) entire fleets were comprised of Fives. The outstanding military difference between the Three and the Five was the number of boarding troops carried, although the Five retained the ram as a secondary weapon of opportunity. The use of towers erected on board ships for offensive and defensive action is also attested in the sources (Livy, 24.34.6; Ap. CW 4.72; Athenaios 5 206d-209e) and, in addition, it was said to be more seaworthy than the Three (Diodorus, 14.47.7; 14.50.4; 14.58.2).

\n\nThe Romans relied upon a captured Carthaginian Five to serve them as the model for their own ship building program. For this reason, the Roman Five was identical to the Carthaginian, although the Roman vessels were generally understood to be less well built, and consequently less sea worthy and slower. The Romans, seeking to avoid naval battles that relied upon the complex and highly skilled manoeuvres of traditional galley warfare, instead sought to grapple and board the enemy. To promote naval battles that relied upon boarding tactics, the Romans developed the famous boarding bridge known as the corvus or "raven".

\n\nThe corvus is best described by Polybius, but also other ancient sources (Polybius, 1.22-23; Frontinus, Stratagems, 2.3.24; Florus, 1.18.9). This was a grappling bridge attached to the mast on the bow of the Roman ship. This bridge could be manoeuvered and dropped onto the deck of the enemy vessel, allowing the Roman marines aboard the Roman vessel to board and storm the enemy vessel.

\n\nThe Five had three rows of oars, with two men pulling each of the top two oars, so that each file of rowers was five – hence the name of the galley. The Five was cataphracted (decked), so that the oarsmen were protected from missiles, as well as the sun and weather. It was significantly larger than previous war galleys, with a total of some 300 rowers and 120 decksoldiers, catapultmen, specialists and officers (Polybius, 1.26.7) and had a displacement of some 100 tonnes when manned. The increased breadth on the waterline meant that the Five was slower than smaller war galleys, although it could still sustain speeds of 7kts for long periods, with a sprint speed of 8kts. It had the room and buoyancy to accommodate additional oarsmen, and strengthened sides to resist ram attacks from smaller, more nimble war galleys. With a fighting deck some 3 metres (10 Roman feet) above the waterline, the Five was well suited to delivering missile and boarding attacks and ushered in an increased reliance on using warships as platforms for artillery.

\n\nThe large crews of the five meant that fleets required ever greater numbers of rowers. Oarsmen were freemen, recruited from among the Roman poor, and attracted by the lure of regular pay. Polybius gives a detailed description of Rome training volunteers as oarsmen in 261 BC (Polybius, 1.21.1-2). Coastal cities were another source of naval recruitment, and Rome likely recruited many of its rowers from among the socii navales (naval allies, such as Tarentum). Typically during the Punic Wars, the decksoldiers of Roman galleys were detached legionaries from Roman field armies.

\n\nAncient warships remained in sight of the coast, for both ease of navigation, and because of fundamental logistical constraints. Galleys required a frequent re-supply of food and fresh water for their large, sweating, crews, and so the galley had a short range. Galleys, being designed for speed, were very vulnerable to storms. Galleys could use small bays and beaches as harbours, travel up rivers, and navigate in water only a meter or so deep. At least as early as 429 BC (Thucydides 2.56.2), but probably earlier (Herodotus 6.48.2, 7.21.2, 7.97), galleys were adapted to carry horses to provide cavalry support to troops also landed by galley.

\n\nGalleys were hauled out of the water whenever possible to keep them dry, light and fast and free from worm, rot and seaweed. Galleys were usually over-wintered in ship sheds or slips (navalia), of which there are extensive archaeological remains at Carthage and Athens. There is evidence that the hulls of Punic galleys were sheathed in lead, and that they were constructed from prefabricated wooden components. The construction, crewing and maintenance of galleys was a complex technical undertaking, only able to be undertaken by a city-state that was able to muster the timber and technical resources and expertise.

{naval_corvus_descr_short}A Corvus Quinquireme was a powerful warship intended for fleet actions, and a refinement of the basic Quinquireme design. Its sheer size made it hard to sink. {naval_corvus_descr}    \n\nA corvus quinquireme is a powerful warship intended for fleet actions, and a refinement of the basic quinquireme design. Its sheer size makes it hard to sink.\n\nThe bulk of the crew are rowers as there are five men to each oar; this pulling power is good, but maintaining ramming or battle speed is very tiring.\n\nThe corvus was developed by Rome during the first Punic War as a means of turning sea battles into land battles, and allowing its superior infantry to become decisive. It is an iron 'beak' on a hinged walkway that is designed to smash down into enemy decking doing two jobs in one: making a bridge for the marines to cross, and locking the two ships together so that the battle has to be fought on the quinquireme captain's terms.
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{naval_hexareme}    Hexareme
{naval_hexareme_descr}\n\nThe Hexareme or ‘the Six’ (Hexeres) were large ships used mainly as command- and control vessels. The hexareme or sexireme is affirmed by the ancient historians Pliny the Elder and Aelian to have been invented in Syracuse. "Sixes" were certainly present in the fleet of Dionysius II of Syracuse (r. 367–357 and 346–344 BC), but they may well have been invented in the last years of his father, Dionysius I. "Sixes" were rarer than smaller vessels, and appear in the sources chiefly as flagships: at the Battle of Ecnomus, the two Roman consuls each had a hexareme, Ptolemy XII (r. 80–58 and 55–51 BC) had one as his personal flagship, as did Sextus Pompeius. At the Battle of Actium, hexaremes were present in both fleets, but with a notable difference: while in the fleet of Octavian they were the heaviest type of vessel, in the fleet of Mark Antony they were the second smallest, after the quinqueremes. A single hexareme, the Ops, is later recorded as the heaviest ship serving in the praetorian Fleet of Misenum.

\n\nThe exact arrangement of the hexareme's oars is unclear. If it evolved naturally from the earlier designs, it would be a trireme with two rowers per oar; the less likely alternative is that it had two levels with three oarsmen at each. Reports about "sixes" used during the 1st-century BC Roman civil wars indicate that they were of a similar height to the quinqueremes, and record the presence of towers on the deck of a "six" serving as flagship to Marcus Junius Brutus.
{naval_hexarem_descr_short} The Hexareme (or Six) were large ships used mainly as command- and control vessels.
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{naval_septireme}    Septireme
{naval_septireme_descr}    \n\nThe Septireme or ‘the Seven’ (Hepteres) was an evolution of the Hexareme. According to Pliny the Elder they were first build by Alexander the Great. Curtius corroborates this, and reports that the king gave orders for wood for 700 septiremes to be cut in Mount Lebanon, to be used in his projected circumnavigations of the Arabian peninsula and Africa. At Salamis Demetrius Poliorcetes had seven such ships, built in Phoenicia, and later Ptolemy II (r. 283–246 BC) had 36 septiremes constructed. Pyrrhus of Epirus (r. 306–302 and 297–272 BC) also apparently had at least one "seven", which was captured by the Carthaginians and eventually lost at Mylae.

\n\nPresumably, the septireme was derived by adding a standing rower to the lower level of the hexareme.
{naval_septireme_descr_short}    The Heptere (or seven) was an evolution of the Hexareme, a large wargalley mainly used as command- and controlvessel.
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{naval_octere}    Octere
{naval_octere_descr}    \n\nThe mighty octeres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. Very little is known about the octeres. At least two of their type were in the fleet of Philip V of Macedon (r. 221–179 BC) at the Battle of Chios in 201 BC, where they were rammed in their prows. Their last appearance was at Actium, where Mark Antony is said by Plutarch to have had many "eights". Based on the comments of Orosius that the larger ships in Antony's fleet were only as high as the quinqueremes (their deck standing at ca. 3 m above water), it is presumed that "eights", as well as the "nines" and "tens", were rowed at two levels.

\n\nAn exceptionally large "eight", the Leontophoros, is recorded by Memnon of Heraclea to have been built by Lysimachus (r. 306–281 BC), one of the Diadochi. It was richly decorated, required 1,600 rowers (8 files of 100 per side) and could support 1,200 marines. Remarkably for a ship of its size, its performance at sea was reportedly very good.
{naval_octere_descr_short}    \n\nThe mighty octceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs many other vessels.
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{naval_ennere}    Ennere
{naval_ennere_descr}    \n\nThe mighty enneres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs many other vessels. The enneres is first recorded in 315 BC, when three of their type were included in the fleet of Antigonus Monophthalmus. The presence of "nines" in Antony's fleet at Actium is recorded by Florus and Cassius Dio, although Plutarch makes explicit mention only of "eights" and "tens". The oaring system may have been a modification of the quadrireme, with two teams of five and four oarsmen.
{naval_octere_descr_short}    The mighty enneres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs many other vessels.
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{naval_decere}    Decere
{naval_decere_descr_short}    \n\nThe mighty deceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs many other vessels.
{naval_decere_descr}    \n\nThe mighty deceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs many other vessels. A deceres is among the largest ships afloat, and is crewed by anything up to 850 men - most, of course, being rowers.\n\nIts combat power is formidable. Apart from a couple of fighting towers, a deceres also carries lithoboloi and katapeltai to bombard enemies, plus a large contingent of marines for boarding and defence.\n\nLike the septireme, the deceres is attributed by Pliny to Alexander the Great, and they are present alongside "nines" in the fleet of Antigonus Monophthalmus in 315 BC. Indeed, it is most likely that the "ten" was derived from adding another oarsman to the "nine". A "ten" is mentioned as Philip V's flagship at Chios in 201 BC, and their last appearance was at Actium, where they constituted Antony's heaviest ships.
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{naval_endecere}    Endecere
{naval_endecere_descr_short}    \n\nThe mighty endeceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs many other vessels.
{naval_endecere_descr}    \n\nThe mighty endeceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs many other vessels. A endeceres is among the largest ships afloat, and is crewed by anything up to 1000 men - most, of course, being rowers.\n\nIts combat power is formidable. Apart from a couple of fighting towers, a endeceres also carries lithoboloi and katapeltai to bombard enemies, plus a large contingent of marines for boarding and defence.\n\nDemetrius Poliorcetes had some of these ships constructed for his fleet in 301BC, they were at that time the biggest warships around.
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{naval_dodecere}    Dodecere
{naval_dodecere_descr_short}    \n\nThe mighty dodeceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs many other vessels.
{naval_dodecere_descr}    \n\nThe mighty dodeceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs many other vessels. A dodeceres is among the largest ships afloat, and is crewed by anything up to 1200 men - most, of course, being rowers.\n\nIts combat power is formidable. Apart from a couple of fighting towers, a dodeceres also carries lithoboloi and katapeltai to bombard enemies, plus a large contingent of marines for boarding and defence. Ptolemy II Philadelphus had two "Twelves" constructed for his fleet, they were at that time the biggest warships around.
¬----------------   
{naval_treiskaidecere}    Treiskaidecere
{naval_treiskaidecere_descr_short}    \n\nThe mighty treiskaideceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs most other vessels.
{naval_treiskaidecere_descr}    \n\nThe mighty treiskaideceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs most other vessels. A treiskaideceres is among the largest ships afloat, and is crewed by anything up to 1400 men - most, of course, being rowers.\n\nIts combat power is formidable. Apart from a couple of fighting towers, a treiskaideceres also carries lithoboloi and katapeltai to bombard enemies, plus a large contingent of marines for boarding and defence.\n\nDemetrius I Poliorcetes had some of these ships constructed for his fleet in 301BC, they were at that time the biggest warships around.
¬----------------   
{naval_tessarakaidecere}    Tessarakaidecere
{naval_tessarakaidecere_descr_short}    \n\nThe mighty tessarakaideceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs most other vessels.
{naval_tessarakaidecere_descr}    \n\nThe mighty tessarakaideceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs most other vessels. A tessarakaideceres is among the largest ships afloat, and is crewed by anything up to 1600 men - most, of course, being rowers.\n\nIts combat power is formidable. Apart from a couple of fighting towers, a tessarakaideceres also carries lithoboloi and katapeltai to bombard enemies, plus a large contingent of marines for boarding and defence.\n\nDemetrius I Poliorcetes had some of these ships constructed for his fleet in 301BC, they were at that time the biggest warships around.
¬----------------   
{naval_pendecere}    Pendecere
{naval_pendecere_descr_short}    \n\nThe mighty pendeceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs most other vessels.
{naval_pendecere_descr}    \n\nThe mighty pendeceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs most other vessels. A pendeceres is among the largest ships afloat, and is crewed by anything up to 1800 men - most, of course, being rowers.\n\nIts combat power is formidable. Apart from a couple of fighting towers, a pendeceres also carries lithoboloi and katapeltai to bombard enemies, plus a large contingent of marines for boarding and defence.\n\nDemetrius I Poliorcetes had some of these ships constructed for his fleet in 301BC, they were at that time the biggest warships around.
¬----------------   
{naval_hexadecere}    hexadecere
{naval_hexadecere_descr_short}    \n\nThe mighty hexadeceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs nearly all other vessels.
{naval_hexadecere_descr}    \n\nThe mighty hexadeceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs nearly all other vessels. A hexadeceres is among the largest ships afloat, and is crewed by anything up to 2100 men - most, of course, being rowers.\n\nIts combat power is formidable. Apart from a couple of fighting towers, a hexadeceres also carries lithoboloi and katapeltai to bombard enemies, plus a huge contingent of marines for boarding and defence.\n\nDemetrius I Poliorcetes had some of these ships constructed for his fleet in 301BC, they were at that time the biggest warships around.
¬----------------   
{naval_octodecere}    Octodecere
{naval_octodecere_descr_short}    \n\nThe mighty octodeceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs nearly all other vessels.
{naval_octodecere_descr}    \n\nThe mighty octodeceres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs nearly all other vessels. A octodeceres is among the largest ships afloat, and is crewed by anything up to 2500 men - most, of course, being rowers.\n\nIts combat power is formidable. Apart from a couple of fighting towers, a octodeceres also carries lithoboloi and katapeltai to bombard enemies, plus a huge contingent of marines for boarding and defence.\n\nThe Hellenistic Kingdoms were known to use large ships such as Hepteres, Deceres, but they didn't stop here. Antigonos II Gonatas, King of Macedon build an "18" and "20". One "18", called Isthmia, was used by Antigonos II as his flagship. It was manned by 2300 rowers on two levels of banks.
¬----------------   
{naval_eikosere}    Eikosere
{naval_eikosere_descr_short}    \n\nThe mighty eikoseres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs nearly all other vessels.
{naval_eikosere_descr}    \n\nThe mighty eikoseres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs nearly all other vessels. A eikoseres is among the largest ships afloat, and is crewed by anything up to 2800 men - most, of course, being rowers.\n\nIts combat power is formidable. Apart from a couple of fighting towers, a eikosere also carries lithoboloi and katapeltai to bombard enemies, plus a huge contingent of marines for boarding and defence.\n\nAntigonus II Gonatas had a "Twenty" constructed for his fleet, while Ptolemy II Philadelphus constructed two of these ships, they were at that time the biggest warships around.
¬----------------   
{naval_triakontere}    Triakontere
{naval_triakontere_descr_short}    \n\nThe mighty triakonteres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs nearly all other vessels.
{naval_triakontere_descr}    \n\nThe mighty triakonteres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs nearly all other vessels. A triakonteres is the second largest ship afloat, and is crewed by anything up to 3600 men - most, of course, being rowers.\n\nIts combat power is formidable. Apart from a couple of fighting towers, a triakontere also carries lithoboloi and katapeltai to bombard enemies, plus a huge contingent of marines for boarding and defence. Ptolemy II Philadelphus had two "Thirties" constructed for his fleet, they were at that time the biggest warships around.
¬----------------   
{naval_tessarakontere}    Tessarakontere
{naval_tessarakontere_descr_short}    \n\nThe mighty tessarakonteres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs all other vessels.
{naval_tessarakontere_descr}    \n\nThe mighty tessarakonteres was a dreadnought in the ancient Mediterranean. In size, number of men and fighting potential it dwarfs all other vessels. A tessarakontere is the largest ship afloat, and is crewed by anything up to 4400 men - most, of course, being rowers.\n\nIts combat power is formidable. Apart from a couple of fighting towers, a tessarakonteres also carries lithoboloi and katapeltai to bombard enemies, plus a huge contingent of marines for boarding and defence.The "Forty" was reportedly built by Ptolemy IV Philopator of Egypt in the 3rd century BC. It was first described by his contemporary Callixenus of Rhodes in the lost Peri Alexandreias. In the early-3rd century AD, Athenaeus quotes this in his Deipnosophistae.\n\n“Philopator built a ship with forty ranks of rowers, being two hundred and eighty cubits long and thirty-eight cubits from one side to the other; and in height up to the gunwale it was forty-eight cubits; and from the highest part of the stern to the water-line was fifty-three cubits; and it had four rudders, each thirty cubits long ... And the ship had two heads and two sterns, and seven beaks ... And when it put to sea it held more than four thousand rowers, and four hundred supernumeraries; and on the deck were three thousand marines, or at least two thousand eight hundred and fifty. And besides all these there was another large body of men under the decks, and a vast quantity of provisions and supplies.”
¬----------------   

DCLXVIMRTRVEBLAKKOKKVLTDCLXVI

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Re: Naval Mechanics
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2016, 02:45:48 PM »
I made new port buildings in EDB. Now we have to decide which settlements get which level at the start of the campaign. Most settlements should get 1, 2, 3, some 4 the other levels are intended for exceptionally large ports like Carthage, Rhodes, Athens, Syracuse, Alexandria, e.t.c. My intention is that Alexandria will get a ninth level naval port at the start of the campaign and Carthage will get a ninth level trade port at the start of the campaign. Tell me if you disagree with that.

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Vincentius

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Re: Naval Mechanics
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2016, 01:18:01 AM »
I don't do much modding, so I can't read it like some others can.  So those will all be trainable ships?  It would be nice to have more than just three ships to train.  I rarely train biremes other than for transport or if I can do nothing else.  I typically have triremes and quinquiremes, two of one, three of the other.  If I expect a lot of action against large navies it is three q'remes and two triremes, otherwise it is two q'remes and three triremes.
Of course, things like the Tessarakonteres were juggernauts, and built to dominate any kind of ships they came up against.  My understanding of that ship is that it was more of a royal show of power and not actually used in combat.  One of those and a couple other heavies would dominate, with some lights as well.

Jubal

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Re: Naval Mechanics
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2016, 05:51:35 PM »
Is the missing capital letter on hexadecere just a typo?
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DCLXVIMRTRVEBLAKKOKKVLTDCLXVI

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Re: Naval Mechanics
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2016, 06:13:57 PM »
@Vincentius Well I already removed the Tessarakonteres for that reason.
@Jubal thanks for noticing that!

ahowl11

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Re: Naval Mechanics
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2016, 08:27:42 AM »
This is definitely something where Mausolos needs to come in and help.

Also based off our steam discussion, we need to figure out what to do naval wise for all the factions that weren't Roman, Carthaginian and Greek.
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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Naval Mechanics
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2016, 12:29:39 AM »
I like the descriptions, they are certainly fine  :) 


Most of the bigger ships were hardly ever used in battle, but there were still definitely markedly different approaches by different factions. Experienced seafaring peoples/cities such as Athens, Rhodes or Carthage mainly relied on the speedy and agile trieres/triremes to outmaneuvre and ram their opponents. The Romans, who had little maritime tradition, relied on the Quadrireme/Tetrere to transport their deadly infantry and board enemy ships with them.
And the wealthy Hellenistic kingdoms utilized the mighty Penteres/Quinqueremes as long as they coudl afford them to represent their power and to be able to overwhelm lesser factions with their sheer number and size. Last but not least many small states still used Dieres/Biremes as they lacked the financial power to build bigger ships. A navy was the most expensive thing there was in the ancient world and especially the big ships could only be afforded with the riches of the Eastern Mediterranean at one's disposal.
So we should make sure to represent that. In the end, the Roman Empire, after the final victory at Actium, reverted it's fleet almost completely back to Liburnes, who were basically Dieres, as Emo rightly said. They did not need any bigger ships anymore, and fast ships were both more effective against pirates as well as cheaper. Even the great Achaemenid Empire of Persia had never built its only navy, but rather utilised it's Egyptian, Phoenician and Greek vassals.

Also, in the description for the Bireme there should probably be a "/" in the brackets between ,,Bireme'' and ,,Diere'' ;)
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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Naval Mechanics
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2016, 12:34:04 AM »
How many level do exist for both kinds of ports then? 10?


I am not sure that Alexandria should get the naval port at level nine and Carthage the trade port. After all, Carthage's naval port was the most famous and biggest of them all if I am not mistaken.


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Jubal

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Re: Naval Mechanics
« Reply #8 on: August 06, 2016, 12:14:56 PM »
I guess it's a difficulty of the RTW engine that one can't get much diversity in styles of naval combat...
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ahowl11

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Re: Naval Mechanics
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2016, 04:27:21 PM »
In the next release I would like to modify the naval mechanics. In Jackasaurus' Let's play he was constantly attacked by ships from Iberia which is not very realistic, and he also found ships to be cheap.
EmoDude originally was going to redo the naval system, but now that he's focused on the seasons and its traits, he has given me the reigns for changing this. My first idea is to incorporate what I can from the Naval mod that was used for RTR6.0 and eventually integrated into the Metro-Naval mod. Another idea of mine is to incorporate what we can from HamilcarBarca's naval warfare research (attached below). Also, I would like to add the riverport system from ExRM, but this does not include making rivers fully navigable as that really messes up path finding as well as makes the map look funny.
Also, already included in the Beta 2 release was some stat adjustments made by Iskandar from the ExRM forums located here:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?197982-Increasing-ship-costs
Some other threads on Naval Aspects and the Sea:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?227926-Testing-ship-stats
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?321907-Fish!
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?425179-Military-harbors

Here is the thread on the Naval Mod (reference only) as well as the guide. I attached the readme below.
http://rtrproject.com/forums/topic/129-desaix-naval-mod/
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5U8BMUwSWW-Y2JCWnI3UFdqUzg/view?usp=sharing
I would like to add the ships from Paeninsula Italica as they have the proper unit cards :)
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Gigantus

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Re: Naval Mechanics
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2016, 06:32:59 PM »
I remember playing that version - at the time I had no clue how trade resources could be used for EDB capabilities and I was really wondering how to get those huge ships.

At the same I also came across that irritating phenomenon of the fleets that did not merge. Fund out years later that when a ship gets recruited it gets treated as a named character (admiral) and may receive a trait. Which then elevates it to an admiral who cannot merge with another admiral.
The culprit: trigger that randomly gave traits to ships when they were recruited. That might need some attention.
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Jubal

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Re: Naval Mechanics
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2016, 10:00:09 PM »
Oh, gods, that's how that works. Gaaah, there are entire WHTW factions whose fleets won't merge for that reason. D'oh.
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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Naval Mechanics
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2016, 10:29:48 PM »
I am posting a little write up by me as an introduction into the significant changes naval warfare underwent during the campaigns of Alexander and the early wars of the diadochoi, which are preceding the start of our main campaign in 270 BC and lay the background for the later 218 BC campaign.
Traditionally, two different types of ships dominated Mediterranean Warfare: The old Greek Penteconter, a galley of about 30ms length, and the Phoenician Bireme, a galley with two rows of oars. Both ships were in use since the Archaic age, but since the faster and military superior Bireme was a Phoenician invention, it was initially restricted to them and their respective overlords, for example the Assyrian kings and later the Achaimenid rulers of Persia. The Bireme came to Greece by the end of the 7th century, but both types of ships were still in use by the time of the Persian invasion of the mainland (490- 478 BC).



An Archaic Penteconter




A Greek Bireme


In 525 BC the tyrant Polykrates of Samos had a new form of warship designed: The Trireme (Greek: Triere) . Equipped with three rows of oars, it was faster and stronger than the Bireme and quickly became the dominant war galley throughout the Mediterranean world. The Phoenicians quickly built up a huge fleet of these ships which were used in the service of the Great King and helped to put down the Ionian Revolt (500- 494 BC) against the Greek cities of Asia Minor. At the decisive battle of Lade off the coast of Miletos (494 BC), 600 Persian triremes overpowered their 350 Greek counterparts.
On the Greek mainland, the poleis lacked both resources and organisation to build up similar fleets until Athens decided to rely on a fleet of triremes rather than on their land army. Initally built as a protection against the raiding parties of Aiginate nobles, it soon emerged as the most formidable naval force in Greece. While biremes and penteconters had mostly served as



A Greek Trireme

swimming bases for slingers or hoplites, the trireme' main weapon was it's ram (embolon). To capitalize on the ramming ability, trireme fleets were usually positioned in a line abreast with each ship on a parallel position to the one next to it, similar to hoplites in a phalanx. While this simple strategy, which did not need a lot of traing and experience, was favoured by most lesser powers until the late Hellenistic age, major powers who possessed a number of fleets devised more complex strategies.
The most popular of these tactical approaches became known as the diekplous, which is explained in the picture below.A Diekplous (''Breakthrough'')This strategy was used by the Persian fleet against the Allied Greek fleet at the battle of Artemision (480 BC) and only luck and a storm saved the Greeks from defeat. Having manned their ships with the poorest citizens and Plataians- of whom many had never seen a ship before!- the Athenians were unable to train the 200 ships of their fleet maneuvres as difficult to learn as the Diekplous in the few weeks they had left until the Achaimenid war machine approached Athens itself.
Despite the better experience and quality of both the crews and their ships, the numerically superior royal fleet was defeated at Salamis in the same year. This victory has to be attributed to the narrow strait between Attica and the island of Salamis, which prevented the Persians from deploying all of their forces at once (furthermore the Egyptian contingent had been sent to the other side of Salamis to block off the supposedly routing Greeks) and made the simple, direct ram tactic of the Greek fleet all the more effective. In the years after Salamis, the victorious Athenians set up the so called Delian League, an alliance of poleis under



Battle of Salamis, Map

the leadership of Athens. Since the other cities had to contribute either their own ships or money and increasingly tended to do the latter, Athens was able to build up a fleet of up to 400 triremes and eventually controlled the League as it's dominating hegemon. With the control of such a mighty instrument of war, Athens became the undisputed queen of the Aegean Sea- not even the Achaimenid navy was able to break their dominance.
Unsurprisingly, the new Athenian fleet also deployed new tactics. Not only did it acquire the diekplous, it's increasingly well trained and professional rowers also learned to apply the periplous in battle. The periplous aimed at breaking up the flanks of the enemy fleet and is again explained in the image above (even though it is wrong to state this tactic The Periplous (''Circumnavigation'')was actually used intentionally and fully at the Battle of Salamis). These two tactics were the main approaches in naval battles apart from the direct ram attack. Since the Greek ships at Salamis had been heavier than their Persian counterparts, the latter tactic was successful on the restricted territory, but usually one of the two other approaches was more effective. Another example for the direct ram tactic is the battle in the harbour of Syracuse during the Athenian Expedition (413 BC).
During the Peloponnesian war Persian money enlarged the Peloponnesian fleet, which then became big enough to successfuly face the Athenians in battle. Having lost their fleet at Syracuse, the formerly superior Athenian triremes came under increasing pressure and were finally defeated at Aigospotamoi (405 BC). Thus Athens and it's allies lost the Peloponnesian War (432- 404 BC), which was quickly followed by the Corinthian War (395- 387 BC).The course of the 4th century saw little invention in naval warfare and with financial restrictions for both Athens and Sparta and a new focus on light land troops (peltastai) sea warfare slightly lost the decisive role it had played during the 5th century.
When Alexander the Great rose to power, he used a fleet of 160 Athenian triremes to protect and support his army on its way to and through western Asia Minor. Shortly after the battle at the river Granikos, Alexander succeeded in capturing Miletos with a combined Sea and Land attack (334 BC) in which the Athenian fleet played a significant role. Despite the success, Alexander decided to send the ships with their crew of 30 000 men home to save money, because it was almost as expensive as his 40 000 men strong land army.
After the death of Alexander (323 BC), who had mainly led a land campaign, naval warfare came to the fore once more. The Successors fought over the Eastern Mediterranean Sea and had to prove their worth as military leaders and legitimate kings. Commanding greater resources than any Greek before them, they also designed new ship types. Even bigger ships with more rows of oars provided a way of building up superior fleets without the need of extensive and complicated training for the rowers and also served the aim to demonstrate monumental royal power.
Alexander had already anticapted an earlier Syracusan idea to put catapults, ballistas and scorpions on warships, which made them able to serve as swimming fortresses who could also be used as offensive weapons in sieges. At the siege of Tyros (332 BC) he first used the tetrere, a ship with 4 rows of oars. Together with the 5-oar pentere, which was invented by the Carthaginians or by the Syracusans shortly afterwards, it began to supersede the traditional trireme. The pentere was approximately




Macedonian/Seleucid Pentere


40ms long and was manned by a crew of about 300 rowers on 3 decks. These ships were used in more simple ways again, direct ramming and especially boarding completed by the use of artillery and javelinmen. Antigonos Monophtalmos, the first successor to crown himself king, took a step further and built nine-rowers and ten-rowers in 314 BC. These monstrous, heavy galleys were equipped with fortified wooden catapult decks and their sheer power could defeat any other ship. That is, until Antigonos contructed eleven-rowers in 301 BC and a single thirteen-rower.
Some of these ships were strengthened with iron armour and reached lengths of about 70ms. Despite these new developments, faster and more manoeuvrable triremes continued to be used by some powers such as democratic Rhodos. It's fleet of 40 triremes outmanoeuvred the Antigonid ships at the siege of Rhodos (305-304 BC) and helped the defenders to hold out against Demetrios Poliorketes' massive army, fleet and siege weapons. Other, alternative types of ships like the light Illyrian liburna were still used by other peoples and powers. Later on, the Romans also built up a similarly big navy like the Hellenistic powers and built the same types of ships- tetrere= quadrireme, pentere= quinquireme.




Roman Liburna

After Augustus had eventually overcome all of his rivals and destroyed all threats to Rome's might, the bigger warships were replaced and the Liburna became the standard ship of the imperial navy. It could patrol coasts, take out pirates and smaller versions could even advance into rivers to control the hinterland. Larger ships were simply not needed anymore, too costly and less effective agains pirates and in these smaller operations. The age of the Hellenistic warship had come to an end.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 10:45:23 PM by Mausolos of Caria »
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Augustus

Gigantus

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Re: Naval Mechanics
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2016, 01:36:06 PM »
Oh, gods, that's how that works. Gaaah, there are entire WHTW factions whose fleets won't merge for that reason. D'oh.

I had some time and checked RTR's EDCT admiral triggers - there are only PostBattle triggers and all AgentRecruited triggers are defined (eg only for spy), so we are fine there.
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Gen.jamesWolfe

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Re: Naval Mechanics
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2016, 06:10:41 AM »
well, here are some ideas I had which I originally proposed over at EBII. Maybe they'll gain track here--for statting:

number of soldiers: probably as it is now.

Attack: (rowers/100)+(marines/100)+ram size--if there is a ram (go by the numbers, so a trireme=3, quadrireme=4, etc). every catapult piece large enough to do damage is worth 100 marines (i.e. 1). a combat tower is also worth 100 marines.

any ship which has rowers, but doesn't need them in battle, or jsut doesn't use rowers, then the crew is treated as marines are).

All attacks should be melee.

defense: for each row of rowers, 2 points armor (so a quadrireme is a 10). Every 30 marines, 1 defense. Any protective canopy or tower=1 armor and 1 shield. If the ship runs on sails only, then the crew number in total should be used, so that every 10 crew would be 1 attack, and 1 armor. any sort of metal lining on the outside would add 1 defense and 2 armor for every 2 rows

A liburna would be treated as a bireme in this scheme--an unusually heavy and powerful one.

hit-points: maybe we should try to tweak this, to see if it helps. In this case, I'd propose 1 hp for every row of rowers.

Morale: I'm thinking each row should get 1 point morale, and 2 morale for every 50 marines, and we make all morale normal, and trained. I tweak this, in the hope that it might help fleets survive more often--unlikely as is.

(so a trireme is ~4 morale, and a Roman quinquireme ~6)

So, opinions? thoughts?