Author Topic: UK politics 2019  (Read 1519 times)

comrade_general

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Re: UK politics 2019
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2019, 05:06:47 PM »
If only people would work together instead of spending their energy pushing against the people they don't like. :(
I'd be more apathetic if I weren't so lethargic.

Jubal

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Re: UK politics 2019
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2019, 05:33:43 PM »
To work together you do have to be able to agree on what you're working towards, is the issue. Fundamentally, I don't agree with the more Conservative wing of UK politics about what the world should look like, what's valuable in it and what we should have more of, which makes it next to impossible for us to work together as we don't have a shared collective vision of what we're working on. Where you can find shared goals, of course, I agree that working together is great and especially in the US and UK political systems more of it needs to happen.
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dubsartur

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Re: UK politics 2019
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2019, 12:52:01 PM »
Well, for now a lot of people in different parties can agree that they don't want to drop out of the EU without trade and travel arrangements in place and that they don't want to give Boris Johnson any chance to do this, and that is a good thing isn't it?  Right now parliament does not have much time to address normal issues.

Because the leaders of the Labour and Conservative parties are both in favour of leaving the EU, so organizing to stop this will require like-minded people in different parties to organize themselves.  And right now, leaving without a deal is the default outcome- it happens unless a majority of parliament votes to do something else (and for some outcomes, the EU has to agree).

Pentagathus

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Re: UK politics 2019
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2019, 09:12:59 PM »
At least Halloween could be genuinely scary this year

Jubal

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Re: UK politics 2019
« Reply #34 on: September 10, 2019, 12:24:58 PM »
Less likely now parliament has legislated for yet another kicking of the can, but we'll see.
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dubsartur

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Re: UK politics 2019
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2019, 08:07:32 PM »
The situation is bad enough that I would not make any jokes about it from outside the UK.  Like I said on mastodon, I hope that my friends in the UK have money and storage for several months' emergency supplies, and a plan for what to do if serious violence breaks out in their community.  I don't have anything light to say about a situation where one constitutional court says proroguing parliament was unconstitutional, another with another legal tradition says that it was, the Prime Minister's Office is threatening to ignore laws and court rulings and there are barely enough police and soldiers to stop ordinary mayhem: its like a H. Beam Piper vignette.

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Re: UK politics 2019
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2019, 12:36:11 AM »
portugals sake, literally nothing will happen overall. People affected include: EU farmers, UK citizens living in the EU currently, UK folks with a vested interest in the EU making money. However:

Middlesbrough council house families, less competition for jobs, less modern slavery.

Northampton council house families, less competition for jobs, less modern slavery, fewer illegal firearms (portugal anyone disputing this, I've lived it and recently. Who has the guns here? Polish gangs, portugal the portugal off if y'all are like 'nah man, EU brings so many nurses to northants' yeah pull the other one ya dickhead who ends up in hospital, yeah, gangsters).

Asian and African farmers: Holy armadillo the CAP is gone for the UK, maybe I can them sell armadillo for a decent price and not get blocked by EU dickheadery.

portugal your conglomerate, portugal your confederation and portugal your European one state policy.

UK service industry: Well armadillo, now I can sell this to everyone and change prices to compete with different markets...

UK trade industry: Well... armadillo. Guess I'll have to move this to another market, yikes, china and india are difficult sells ofc...

UK marketing industry: What's this brexit bollocks?

UK music industry: Wha's dis Braxit ballicks?

56% Uk export market: wuts dat breakfast bolox?

Corruption in EU: Uk at 20% better on average than other EU countries.
All the growth is in EU... Oh wait... No, 90% of it it isn't.

The EU is just armadillo, economically, it's armadillo. It's stable, but armadillo, growth is armadillo, economic policy is armadillo. Politically, it's ridiculous, even more ridiculous than the nonsense that's going on in UK politics. Why the ever living portugal do we have most politicians still campaigning for remaining when most people voted for leaving the EU? Who feels this is a good example of parliamentary democracy? Anyone who feels like a referendum isn't actionable democracy.

And to be fair, even though I voted leave, I don't give a flying portugal for anyone's notion of nationalism, sovereignty, who's being 'let in' the country (portugal off, if you tried half as hard to get in to Sweden, you'd see what I mean), it's goddamn difficult to get into a country legally which is better than your own, Uk economy (portugal right off again, floating currency combined with music industry, film industry, english language as soft currency and tourism, it literally doesn't matter), 'English exceptionalism' if that even exists or whatever the portugal nonsense.

It's literally no issue. Get on with whatever you're doing, Brexit might not even happen. It doesn't matter either way, nothing will change.


Much love,
Rob
Once you realize what a joke everything is, being the Comedian is the only thing that makes sense.


Jubal

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Re: UK politics 2019
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2019, 02:47:30 PM »
I disagree with just about all of that, but you know I do so there's no point us relitigating it :)

Meanwhile, in more amusing takes on the news, after the government's "Operation Yellowhammer" planning documents got released...
Quote
Yellowhammer wondering what it’s done wrong



One of Britain’s most popular songbirds is wondering why everyone suddenly hates it this morning.

The bird – which is known for its vibrant colours of bright yellow and streaky brown, similar to Nigel Farage’s underpants – was until yesterday best known for cheerfully singing on the top of hedgerows before public opinion turned rapidly against it overnight.


Rest of article: https://newsthump.com/2019/09/12/yellowhammer-wondering-what-its-done-wrong/



And it's Lib Dem conference this weekend. Going to be my last one before taking a couple of years out from party activism to focus on my PhD and finishing other projects. Will be stressful but nice to see people, so I hope it goes well.
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dubsartur

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Re: UK politics 2019
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2019, 02:55:36 PM »
portugals sake, literally nothing will happen overall. People affected include: EU farmers, UK citizens living in the EU currently, UK folks with a vested interest in the EU making money.
And people in Ireland (only the Troubles were never just in Ireland were they?  back in the day people were mortaring cabinet meetings and planting bombs in English hotels) and Scotland (where the secessionists have an excuse for another referendum).

In my pocket I have a beautiful knife by a British cutler.  In the event of a no-deal Brexit and tariffs and customs delays being imposed, he loses his European customers to Czechs and Poles PDQ (I guess his YouTube income will remain steady ...)

Pentagathus

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Re: UK politics 2019
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2019, 08:59:15 PM »
I'm really not worried Bout stockpiling emergency supplies or outbursts of mob violence (although I am somewhat concerned that failing to leave could cause a small increase in domestic terrorism). Not sure what to expect overall from all this, but I imagine that the current uncertainty is probably about as economicsally damaging as a no deal brexit would be tbh.

Jubal

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Re: UK politics 2019
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2019, 04:25:10 PM »
I think there's some supplies stuff it is worth worrying about - I incidentally agree that failing to leave might lead to some extremist violence, but I think that leaving would lead to just as much if not more, especially if it meant a hard NI border. I think the current uncertainty isn't great, but with No Deal I just don't see how you avoid much bigger trade problems at our ports which haven't been expanded to take account of the greater goods checks and slower movement through them, with the various issues which that implies.

We'll see what happens, nowt I can do about it now anyway.
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dubsartur

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Re: UK politics 2019
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2019, 11:06:47 AM »
What do you think about Cardiff University's Future of England Survey where majorities of both Remain and Leave voters are willing to accept violence against MPs if it is necessary to achieve their preferred outcome?  https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/news/view/1709008-future-of-england-survey-reveals-public-attitudes-towards-brexit-and-the-union

London did not feel like a powder keg in summer 2019, but London is not the whole UK and seeing Neo-Nazi stickers was a bad sign.

Jubal

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Re: UK politics 2019
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2019, 05:08:43 PM »
Yes, it's a pretty horrifying finding. I struggle to believe that it really means the UK is a powder keg - I think it may more about the dehumanisation of politicians as a class than the dehumanisation of political opponents. But I may be wrong.

Meanwhile, one of the least sung but actually potentially quite important events of British politics is taking place (with a few technical hiccups), unbeknownst to most of the public and without any discussion in the media. I am talking about the Liberal Democrat internal elections, something which probably won't even get a BBC article to announce the result. These votes are, however, vital to understand the functioning of the party and its place in UK politics - deciding who writes the manifesto, who controls access to conference for ideas to become policy, and who makes the party's core strategic decisions and runs election campaigns. There's also the election of the party president, a hugely important figure who line-manages the CEO, sits on all the central committees, acts (with varying efficiency) as a conduit between the membership and the parliamentarians, and so on. The outgoing president, Sal Brinton, has widely been seen as a fairly safe pair of hands, as are both of her possible successors, party strategist and internal news provider Mark Pack and Edinburgh West MP and leadership ultra-loyalist Christine Jardine, though whichever of them wins will have some very significant roles to play in the coming months.

The outgoing committees, elected in 2016, were a broad mix, roughly anchored in the party's traditional centre-left position with a few right wingers and a few radicals - there's also a lot of appointed or indirectly elected members on these committees, with the directly elected membership only comprising a bit over half in each case. In fairness to the disengaged the overall political composition of the committees is relatively unlikely to change drastically, largely because no faction or interest bloc within the party has the energy or manpower to stand enough candidates to change it. These are all exhausting voluntary roles, all based in London, that burn people out regularly, and actually tend to prevent people from advancing towards being elected politicians because the time commitment split between the committee and a prospective parliamentary candidate role is extremely hard for most people to manage. Precisely who is elected may nonetheless make significant differences - it can often be one or two votes in it in Federal Conference Committee as to whether a more controversial motion gets debated at conference. The other complicating factor is the vastly larger membership, and the fact that any group wanting an organised way to change things would have to build a level of reach within the party that absolutely nobody has at present, there being huge numbers of armchair members who aren't terribly informed on party debates and won't do more than (at best) read the candidates' one page manifestos that go out with the ballot. As such, surprises are quite probable, as the membership changes mean incumbency, or having built up a past support base, could be significantly less advantageous than it might once have been.

I've written an endorsements post on my blog which contains a quick rundown of the major committees involved at the top, and also (more interestingly for outsiders) a post on the presidential race where I explain my concerns with both of the candidates and why I'm not publicly endorsing either of them.
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dubsartur

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Re: UK politics 2019
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2019, 11:30:02 PM »
Yes, it's a pretty horrifying finding. I struggle to believe that it really means the UK is a powder keg - I think it may more about the dehumanisation of politicians as a class than the dehumanisation of political opponents. But I may be wrong.

Meanwhile, one of the least sung but actually potentially quite important events of British politics is taking place (with a few technical hiccups), unbeknownst to most of the public and without any discussion in the media. I am talking about the Liberal Democrat internal elections, something which probably won't even get a BBC article to announce the result.
One reason I was a bit reluctant to quote Andrew Coyne is that he tends to forget Canada has more than two parties in parliament when writing his columns.  That is black magic and not approved by the Wise Lord or Ea: I acknowledge that speech has magical functions, but I refuse to say something which is false to make it true.

Wouldn't we expect internal party business to stay out of the news, since the people involved are ones who want to avoid the headlines and the real discussions are internal under confidentiality agreements? 

Charlie Stross' latest wild theory is that there is a faction of the LibDems who want to replace the Tories as the centre right party of business if they shatter over Brexit.  Have you run into anyone proposing that?


In Canada, we hear about leadership contests, and about the public part of national conventions, especially for the Liberals and Conservatives, but I can't remember significant news coverage for races for internal party offices.  "Young Liberals lobby for marijuana legalization to be added to platform" is a typical headline, but the thinking seems to be that if you care about the internal workings of a party you are probably high up in it already.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 11:13:47 PM by dubsartur »

Jubal

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Re: UK politics 2019
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2019, 12:10:35 PM »
I think it's normal for the public not to care about the internal workings of parties, I just don't think it's right. In terms of what people get news about, intra-party politicking is at least as important as a lot of the inter-party stuff, but is covered far less. Some internal discussions will be confidential (private polling, financing numbers, seat targeting) and I don't think are of much interest, but a lot of stuff (party internal leadership, what manifestos will include, what range of opinions are being voiced within the party) isn't, at least in my case. And I think it's useful for voters to know the range of opinion on offer within a party, because it can help inform their vote. For example, if there was a strong leftward or rightward shift in who got elected to the Lib Dems' policy committee or presidency, that'd be a valid input for someone to think about when making decisions, I think. Leaders, after all, can change - if a leader is really heavily on one wing of their party, then the media's tendency to promote that leader's views as being the whole party actively misleads voters who may not realise that the likelihood is that the party will swing in the other direction next time they have a leadership contest. So yeah, I'm sure not discussing this stuff is normal, I just think the media ought to do it more (and they do discuss the internal politics of the Big Two more than in other parties, possibly partly because those are less democratic and more backstabby and make for greater narrative interest).

Are there LDs who'd like to take over as the centre-right party in the UK? Yes, absolutely. There just aren't enough of them to actually get anywhere. That attitude broadly maps onto part of what are known as the market liberal or "Orange Book" bloc (so named for a market-liberal publication from sometime in the mid 00s). There's a number of people in that bloc who talk about the Lib Dems being the "natural party of business" which has become a stronger line since the Tories have started burning bits of the economy for the sake of nationalism. However, the Orange Bookers (and Liberal Reform, their organisation) are a weak faction internally - they were left rather discredited after the disaster election of 2015, and have very little strength on committees or at the party conference. Actual Lib Dem policy on business also looks forward to the end of businesses solely controlled by shareholders (I know because I wrote that bit), which is raaaather far from where they'd need it to be to make their case. Also most market liberals are still a long way from being Conservatives or thinking of the Lib Dems as taking over on the centre-right, so the sub-faction of "the Lib Dems should replace the Tories" are not nonexistent but are a functional irrelevance, and I've never actually had a conversation with anyone who thinks that's a serious prospect (whilst the attitude of "Labour are the competition, the Tories are the opposition" is very baked into large chunks of the party and how we campaign/think about things).



Meanwhile, uh, we're having an election. I will try and write something on this when I have time and when I'm not just feeling worried about how deeply unpleasant it's all going to get.
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