Israel boards aid flotilla

[Jubal]

What do you all think of this? Israel claims its troops were attacked first (though they WERE boarding a ship that wasn't even in their territorial waters yet), whereas the aid crews have said that they offered no provocation for this.

So... just self-defence by Israel, or nakedly abusive piracy?



P.S. I'll give my thoughts soon enough, I'm not ACTUALLY this unbiased  

[Marcus]

Well, although I feel that the boarding of a civilian aid convoy is over the top, they did warn the convoy not to try to break the barrier, and they did. They were warned, and after that warning, Israel carried out it's threat.

[comrade_general]

Mark sums it up pretty good. Naturally it would have been smarter to let them enter territorial waters first.

[Jubal]

On the other hand, they seem to have beaten up people even on the 5 ships of the convoy that DID stop according to current reports.

And if Israel attacks ships outside (and they were well outside) territorial waters it is internationally illegal (as indeed the UN says the entire Gaza blockade is). So being fully honest, while it may have been stupid of the protesters it was still utterly wrong of the Israelis IMHO.

[Marcus]

Yes, the Israelis were wrong, but there is little that can be done about it. The activists should have known what they were getting into when they decided to run the blockade. I mean, you would hardly run up to Himmler and greet him in Hebrew, would you? (Godwin's Law, before anyone says.)

The Israeli military are known to be pretty rough, probably partly due to the fact they are a Jewish country surrounded by Muslim countries who hate their guts. They fight fire with fire, and go over the top at times.

Of course, despite the publicity, this pales in comparison to the US army shooting up a funeral because there *might* have been a terrorist there...

[Jubal]

I don't think you can accuse the protesters of greater stupidity than the Israelis though - and to be honest more can and should be done about a country that goes in and boards vessels in international waters and then COMPLAINS when they attack boarders. I'm not saying it was smart of the activists, but there's dumb and there's genuinely nasty, and Israel falls firmly into the latter category here.

I mean, imagine if the Syrians or Iranians boarded an aid convoy? The US and UK would be spitting fire, it'd more or less be a declaration of war. It seems that Israel can still get away with these things to a greater extent sadly. I'm certainly not condoning US failures in other areas of the middle east either, but the fact remains that Israel's actions were more or less certainly internationally illegal and I hope that they'll have to somehow pay the price for that.

Ultimately fighting fire with fire isn't going to work for Israel; sooner or later either they're gonna have to integrate into the region or there's going to be a big ol' war. I think only sanctioning them until they pursue the former will prevent the latter, frankly.

[Marcus]

The Iranians took several of our sailors hostage at one point. Unless I am very much mistaken, there wasn't a war over that one.

Of course Israel is trying to spin this one, what else do you expect them to do? I mean, our government wasn't exactly honest over the invasion of Iraq, were they?

My point is that although this was a stupid and nasty thing for Israel to do, it actually looks quite tame compared to what the US army (and possibly the British, although I don't know what our lot have done in that area, besides beat up prisoners) has done in Iraq and previous wars over the years.

The activists were warned over radio, they were stalked by Israeli ships, then when the convoy wouldn't stop, they attacked. I definitely feel that they should have waited until they were in their territorial waters before doing so, and that the should have more effectively quelled the activists from above with tear gas and the like before going in, but they said what they were going to do, and they did it.

[joek]

They were an aid convoy, and hence protected even in enemy territory in a WAR. Israel should not be allowed to get away with attacking them with impunity, though there is little we can do because the US, for some unknown reason, generally support them. There should be UN sanction, but they probably won't be significant.

[comrade_general]

the US, for some unknown reason, generally support them.

Maybe because they are the only country in the entire region that doesn't totally hate us in some regard?

Plus the Israelis are well known for not taking any crap.

Not that I completely condone what they did.

[Jubal]

It just looks very like what for the Israelis is "not taking any crap" for the Iranians or many other nations would be "priacy and a breach of international law".

Besides, the Jordanians, Turks, and Saudis all have pretty decent relations with the US usually. And in fact the main reason all the others hate the US is BECAUSE the US is seen to be pro-Israel. If the US told the Israelis to back out of the West Bank, stop blockading Gaza and generally cut the crap out or they'd cut off armaments and oppose then on the UN security council, then the US might actually find its standing in the Middle East increased greatly. Not that it's going to, but West Bank settling and the Gaza blockade are both internationally illegal so tbh it seems the morally correct position.

[comrade_general]

You're analyzing my words too thoroughly.   I'm talking in generalities.

I'm not about to make suggestions on world policies or laws. Really we don't know enough about this situation, or the region's situation in general, from the vague and guided reports of the media to generate much thought of a viable solution. Of course now I'm being too critical, since our opinions are quite harmless here.  

[master412160]

I think its very wrong, those supplies are needed, people depend on it in Gaza. And now for a second time such a ship has been stopped by Isreal.

[Jubal]

Yea... the fact that Gaza gets 1/4 of the aid it needs allowed in by Israel has to count against them stopping aid boats.