Discussion: New Faction Units

[ahowl11]

Wow, thank you so much for that Mausalos!

In regards to Katoikoi/Kleruchoi, I found this from an RS2 Preview:

The terms for landowner (kleruchoi) and settler (katoikoi) would change with the times. Before the 3rd century B.C., the Greek and Macedonian land holders were referred to as kleruchoi. Starting with successes at Raphia and the demands for greater say in the running of their homelands, the natives were being granted land ownership too. In 197 B.C. during the reign of Ptolemy V Ephiphanes the natives were used in more substantial roles within the empire and were increasingly granted land allotments themselves; attaining kleruchoi status themselves. In response to this the Greek and Macedonian land holders, and perhaps other European settlers like the Celts and Thracians, increasingly chose to be called katoikoi, not kleruchoi, to distinguish themselves from native kleruchoi.

In the same preview (For the Ptolemies) it addressed that Pezhetairoi was a universal term, just as you explained.

Pezoi, by definition, basically means "foot soldier," and was the term generally applied to all Ptolemaic phalangites. The Makedonikoi Phalangitai of the Seleucids, Pezoi of the Ptolemies, and the Pezhetairoi of Macedonia are all from the same background.

Okay so let's see if I can get these right!


Antigonids

Spoiler

Missile Troops
Slingers
Skirmishers
Archers
Peltasts
Kestros Slingers

Pezhetairoi
Deuteroi - From what I have read they were equipped as Levy Phalangites
Leukaspides - Younger Core, main line troop
Chalkaspides - Veteran Core, main line troop
Kleruchoi/Katoikoi - Settlers
Allied Phalangites - From Greece and other client states
Asthetairoi - Elite

Infantry
Hoplites
Thureophoroi - Did Macedon use them? Some mods do not include them
Thorakitai - See above
Hypaspists
Sword Hypaspists - Apparently were assault troops for sieges and quick maneuvers. Carried Javelins and Swords I believe. Check RTRPE. Could also be referred to as 'Royal Peltasts'.

Cavalry
Hippakontistai
Prodromoi
Sarissophoroi
Lonchophoroi - See below
Xystophoroi
Hetairoi

Units in Question
Amphipolitan and Bottian Phalangites:

Spoiler

From CATW:

Phalangites form the western and eastern districts of Macedonia. They were sturdy and disciplined mainland phalangites, differing from veterans by their lack of experience, but still having excellent training and equipment which made them quite impressive opponents for any phalanx.

From RS2:

Amphipolitan
The Amphipolitan phalangites are recruited specifically from eastern Macedon -- the area around the city of Amphipolis. Amphipolitan and Bottian phalangites together form the full levy of Macedonian citizens in the phalanx. They are not as powerful as the Agema phalangites, but they are nonetheless a dependable and necessary addition to any Macedonian army. This is a homeland unit.

Bottian
These men are recruits from two western districts of the Macedonian Kingdom, Upper Macedonia and Bottia. Here Philip II trained the Macedonian phalangitai for the first time and they are considered to be among the best soldiers in the world. They are well trained and brave -- maybe not yet as great as the men whom Alexander led in Asia, but they need just a bit of battle hardening! This is a homeland unit.

Aspidophoroi

Spoiler

From CATW:

In fact, it is still difficult to have a clear view of the tactics of this kind of cavalry unit, rarely mentioned by ancient authors. The main question was "were they just regular cavalrymen using a aspis in an isolated battle action, or was it a regular unit ? " Still debatable. However, the tactic used seems obviously to have a better action in melee combat, against other cavalrymen and infantrymen as well, even dismounted actions, the horse beeing only a way of transportation. In fact, betwwn the noble cavalry and the versatile, but lightly protected prodromoi, a gap existed, which was filled with time by many cavalry units, with many names and varied armament but a single goal : Add their weight in melee combat. The Aspidophroi were specifically designed to deal with javelin armed troops, peltasts and derivated thureophoroi and thorakitai which were common and more agile than the highly static phalanx, and defined new tactical approaches. So the aspidophoroi were first armed as prodromoi, but quite better protected, with an aspis and an armor, and a better hemet, perhaps thracian with large cheeks. It was also a useful melee cavalry, protecting the heavy lancers which leads the charge, making like a "safety corridor" on its sides.

From RS2:

The main weapon of the Aspidophoroi is the javelin -- but this is not skirmisher unit. They are heavy cavalry, armed with javelins for an added punch. They are also armed with a kopis sword for close combat, at which they excel, protected by their large shield. These riders have great skill, an excellent ranged attack, and a powerful charge. They are a particularly devastating evolution of the Macedonian heavy cavalry, and spell death to any light cavalry they close with.
Aspidophoroi are a wing of heavy cavalry that use javelins to skirmish as a primary weapon. They can be compared to a heavier version of the Tarantine style skirmishing cavalry overall in their abilities. Once they have inflicted initial skirmishing casualties on the enemies of the Ptolemaic Kingdom with their javelins, they can opt to switch to their swords and begin slaughtering the target at close range or initiate a charge to disrupt and smash enemy formations with solid single handed lances. As great all-round cavalry, these riders are able to skirmish and melee with heavily armed enemies both mounted and on foot due to their armor and their aspis shield. Against the elite cavalry the hetairoi or the massively armored cataphracts of the Seleucids, they may not have the ability to overcome these powerful cavalry wings without support from other cavarly or infantry suited for the task.

Cavalry in the later time periods after Alexander was no longer used mainly for the hammer and anvil tactic that served Alexander so well against the Persians. Cavarlymen from the Hellenistic powers, such as the Macedonians and Ptolemies, were trained to combine functions of skimishing and melee and along with this they were equipped with defenses that would grant them more protection than normal in melee. Thus, the best cavalrymen trained for this can make a surprising statement on the battlefield by warding off skirmisher foot and cavalry while still being the bane of phalanxes if they can get around the flanks to threaten the phalanx. Commanders should be quick to use them in both roles to achieve the upper hand on the battlefield!

From EB:

Hail Stratege! The men mounted before you are among your most vital cavalrymen. Armored in leather torso armour and carrying stout shields, they are well able to last in melee. After throwing their iron tipped javelins, they will retreat behind the shock cavalry, and then help to exploit the breakthrough made by the lancers by weight and skill. Do not misuse them, for they are an elite among your horsemen, and are difficult to replace. Still, they are well able to hold their own in virtually any melee, since each man's heavy kopis will deal death to those infantry who dare approach them.

Historically, the successor states fielded cavalry different from what Alexandros had used. These men solved a very practical problem: how do you soften up an infantry line for a charge, and then exploit it afterward? After the early days of the successor kingdoms, there were never enough men of this stature to make a massive impact on the battlefield. But, perhaps you will learn from the mistake of allowing your own opulence overshadow the needs of your army?

Lonchophoroi

Spoiler

From CATW:

The "lonchophoi" were in fact "rearmed aspidophoroi", they were equipped with a lance as a main weapon, the machaira still doing its bloody business in close quarters. But their main origin was the prodromoi, they were rearmed with a lance like the sarisphoroi for tactical actions and an excellent protection to deal with medium and light infantymen on the battlefield. With time, some could have been given greaves for added protection.

From RS2:

The Lonchophoroi are the sturdy medium cavalry of Macedon. They are armed with the xyston lance and a heavy shield. Cheaper than the Companions or other Macedonian heavy cavalry, but still able to pack a real punch as they charge into enemy formations, they fill a vital role in the order of battle.

Not all heavy cavalry consisted of the hetairoi. Another notable type, the lonchophoroi, are the sturdy medium cavalry of Macedonian origin consisting of the wealthier nobleman who were trained to formed a sturdy unit of cavalry. These cavalrymen were available and used by the successors after Alexander. Their primary purpose was as shock troops, crashing into the enemy lines trying to breach them, hoping to cause a rout. They are armed with the cavalry lance, linothorax with scales, and a round heavy shield. Cheaper than the Companions or other Macedonian heavy cavalry, but still able to pack a real punch as they charge into enemy formations, they fill a vital role in the order of battle. While many cavalry have to charge, retreat, and charge again, well trained lonchophoroi simply need a good charge to allow their melee abilities to further expand the gap in enemy formations. As with all cavalry, use caution around spearmen, even weaker ones.

Like other heavy cavalry, they can provide shock value at the onset of battle coupled with the melee skill to stay fighting longer than light cavalry but not as long as heavy cavalry can melee. These riders are not as heavily armored as hetairoi or the cataphracts. This makes them much faster in the chase, though not as fast as light cavalry which have little or no armor weighing them down. In a close combat situation the lonchophoroi are a good balance in performance and abilities between the heaviest cavalry and the medium and light cavalry. Like the xystophoroi, these are also ideal on scouting missions, as they all possess the quick speed and strong muscle to fight there way through an ambush and if caught far from friendly forces and can hold their own when required.

From EB:

Hail Stratege! Fine noblemen forming a sturdy body of cavalry whose purpose is to crash into your foe and have the staying power to breach his line are here, arrayed before you. Armed with stout single handed lances and the mighty aspis of our ancestors, they can unleash a terrible charge. Once they have inflicted gruesome casualties on our enemies, they will switch to their melee weapon and begin a close-in slaughter. While men from Epeiros or Makedonia proper would have the sturdy Kopis, men further east may prefer the stout bladed war axe like that used by Alexander at the Granicus. They are armored with scale reinforced linen, greaves, and masked Phrygrian helmets that betray naught but the angry face of Zeus Pater or wrathful Poseidon. They are best used as a general purpose heavy cavalry. However, if facing the sturdier men from the east, or, Gods forbid, the elite Hetairoi or massive Kataphraktoi of the Seleukides and Baktrioi, they may not have the staying power that they would against other heavy cavalry. Use them well, and they will give your enemies naught but the death they so richly deserve!

Historically, the lancers of later Hellenistic armies were divided into several types. Some cavalry performed shock roles as a secondary function, with the charge itself being their goal, and thus it became necessary to develop a specific force of cavalry who could charge in suppport but lend staying power to their comrades. This sort of cavalry was used to great effect by the forces of Syrakousai and Taras in the west, Epeiros, Pergamon and Makedonia in the heartland of the Greek and Makedonian peoples, and the even the great Hellenistic kingdoms of Aigyptos, Syria, and Baktria. They appear on both sides at the battle of Magnesia, where they and the Pergamene Hetairoi checked the advance of more heavily armored Seleukid cavalry, allowing the Romans to roll up the line of Seleukid infantry. Still, they have some weaknesses, and should not be expected to defeat elite troops in prolonged battle.

Seleucids

Spoiler

Missile Troops
Slingers
Skirmishers
Archers
Peltasts

Pezhetairoi
Pantodapoi - Native levy Phalangites
Chalkaspides - Bronze Shields
Chrysaspides - Gold Shields
Agyraspides - Silver Shields
Kleruchoi - Settlers
Hypaithroi - Allies

Infantry
Hoplites
Hypaspists
Elite Hypaspists - I'm guessing similar to the Sword Hypaspists of Macedon?
Thureophoroi
Thorakitai

Cavalry
Hippakontistai
Prodromoi
Lonchophoroi
Xystophoroi
Agema
Hetairoi
Hellenic Cataphracts

Other
Scythed Chariots
Indian War Elephants
Syrian Elephants

Ptolemies

Spoiler

Missile Troops
Slingers
Skirmishers
Archers
Peltasts
Machimoi Archers

Pezoi
Machimoi Phalangites
Stratiotai
Kleruchoi
Kleruchoi Agema

Infantry
Machimoi Infantry
Thureophoroi
Machairaphoroi
Epilektoi
Basilikon Agema

Cavalry
Hippakontistai
Machimoi Cavalry
Prodromoi
Machairaphoroi Cavalry
Xystophoroi
Hetairoi

Other
African Elephants

Alright that's it. Took me a few hours to compile everything! Everything should look good for the Seleucids and Ptolemies. There are still a few units in question for the Antigonids. Mausalos, if you could read what I put about them and check your sources I think we can come up with a final roster.

I'll restate that I think that Greek (Antigonid), Asian (Seleucid), and Machimoi (Ptolemaic) troops should be available for all Diadochi factions based on regions owned. The Antigonids and Seleucids should have access to Machimoi troop types if they ever conquer Egypt.

Also, I believe each faction needs a Levy Militia unit for garrisoning/public order. It would replace the peasant unit and it stops the revolt CTD that will occur if Peasants are removed. Thoughts?

Once we finalize these three rosters we will do the Hellenic States roster, which will be fun because it will feature units from Epirus, Pergamum, Cyrene, and Bactria

[Bercor]

In the hellenistic period the hypaspist was an elite unit, so giving the Seleucids an unit called Elite Hypaspists it's redundant. Also, I don't think there should be a Sword Hypaspist unit, the engine allows to give two weapons to any unit, as such, we can have an hoplite with a sword as secondary weapon, and it's an unnecessary unit that takes a spot that we may need in the future. If the player wants more assault units then he can buy mercenaries.

[Mausolos of Caria]

Bercor, don't be silly, there isn't any snow in Caria.

And ahowl, it's MausOlos, not Mausalos, just by the way 

But back onto the topic:



Katoikoi: Maybe that's right, what I found was that Katoikoi were the socially higher standing part of the Kleruchoi later on. I forgot to add to the roster above that the Ptolemaic Empire should have the Katoikoi Hippeis as I pointed out above. Katoikoi cavalry would also be a good solution and shows that they are the richer cleruchs since they can afford their own horses. > Add Katoikoi cavalry to Ptolemaic Empire

MACEDON

Thureophoroi were invented as a reaction to Celtic raids, and since Macedon was the first of the hellenistic state to encounter Celtic enemies it would seem logic that they were the ones wo even invented the Thureos shield troops. Should definitely get them.

Sword Hypaspists Okay this is complicated now. The Royal Peltasts seem to be the so called ''Agema of the Hypaspists'', the elite of the elite, formed from the original corps of Alexander's hypaspists, counting 2000 men. They are described as peltasts, but in pitched battles they are described as a Macedonian phalanx. Bercor makes a good point about the two weapons one can have, but it seems that the Agema Hypaspists could actually fight as phalangites and swordsmen. So if you don't form them into a phalanx they would be elite sword hypaspists. But I don't think that's possible in the game mechanics, or is it?

Amphipolitan and Bottian Phalangites If you want them, put them in, but I'm sure they were part of the Chalkaspides & Leukaspides

Lonchophoroi They seem to be extremely similar to Xystophoroi then. If we find enough differences we could put both in, or alternatively Ptolemies and Seleucids get Xystophoroi while Macedon has Lonchophoroi as medium cavalry.

Aspidophoroi: Well the different mods don't seem to agree on their role and equipment  I found mounted Thureophoroi being mentioned and from the descriptions they could be the Aspidophoroi, although they carry a Thureos shield and not a Aspis shield, while both have javelins and the machaira sword for melee. So we could put them in I guess.

+ Illyrian cavalry was even stationed by Alexander in Bactria so they were probably part of later Macedonian armies, too. Making them available as mercenaries seems sound.

+ Gallic cavalry was also deployed as mercenaries after the Gallic invasion of Greece and still served in the Macedonian army by the 190s. Perhaps some of them also fought by foot like the Galatian mercenaries deployed by the Ptolemies. The element of ,,barbarian'' troops in the Macedonian army, be it Celts, Thracians, Illyrians or others was constantly on the rise during the 3rd and early 2nd century BC

Thorakitai: I read another book (Hans van Wees) on the topic and he attests this ''cuirassed infantry'' only to the Seleucid and Achaian armies.


SELEUCIDS

Elite Hypaspists- sorry for not being clear enough there, the Seleucids had a unit called Agema of the Hypaspists, but they were never described in any of the recorded battles and thus it is very likely that it this was rather meant as the Agema of the Argyraspides, being the Hypaspists. So in difference to Macedon, there wasn't a special core of the Hypaspists, just Hypaspists

Everything else is fine, but we can add another unit:

+ The Dromedary corps - I think that's self explaining Obviously they are slower, but spread fear among horses. Dromedar cataphracts are only attested some 400 years later in the Parthian army, so these would have been medium spear cavalry I think (since camels/dromedars don't have a lot of use against infantry they wouldn't have carried swords)

PTOLEMIES

Add Katoikoi Hippeis (see above)

Everything else is fine, but don't forget about the Cretans, Galatians, Rhodians and Carians 


P.S: The Achaian League also fielded the Epilektoi as Elite infantry, as they did have Thorakitai (just putting this here for later)

[Bercor]

Sword Hypaspists Okay this is complicated now. The Royal Peltasts seem to be the so called ''Agema of the Hypaspists'', the elite of the elite, formed from the original corps of Alexander's hypaspists, counting 2000 men. They are described as peltasts, but in pitched battles they are described as a Macedonian phalanx. Bercor makes a good point about the two weapons one can have, but it seems that the Agema Hypaspists could actually fight as phalangites and swordsmen. So if you don't form them into a phalanx they would be elite sword hypaspists. But I don't think that's possible in the game mechanics, or is it?

So we have three possibilities to represent the hypaspists:
- as an elite phalangite, with sword as secondary weapon;
- as an traditional hoplite, with sword as secondary weapon;
- as an royal peltast, with sword as secondary weapon.

In my opinion, we should discard representing them as an elite phalangite because, while it's true what Mausolos said, we already have an elite phalangite unit for both Macedon and the Seleucids. So, this gives us the last two options. If we want to make them an assault troop, probably more adequated to the hellenistic period, then we should make them royal peltasts. On the other hand, if we want them as an defensive sturdy unit, more antiquated, then we should represent them as tradiotional hoplites.

Personally, I would make the basic Hypaspist unit as an traditional hoplite and give Macedon an Hypaspist peltast unit "Agema Hypaspistai" or something similar. This way I believe we can represent the "elite" macedonian hypaspists.

[Mausolos of Caria]

Yeah I think that would be the best way to handle it. We should be aware of the fact that the description ''peltast'' only refers to the pelte shield, apart from that they will have been rather swordsmen than light troops. So they would be elite assault troops then, while the ''normal'' hypaspists are elite hoplites, more flexible than the phalanx- guard hoplites, if you want.

[Bercor]

This is the Europa Barbarorum profile for the Carian Warriors:

Is this historically accurate?

[Mausolos of Caria]

See, that's exactly how I tried to describe them before Yes that's legit.

As for the militia to defend towns, I forgot to adress that, I guess we can just put them in as ''militia'' or ''citizen militia'' or so.

[Bercor]

But did they use mainly swords or axes?

[Mausolos of Caria]

Well as the name says they are a warband, for most of the time Caria had neither a state nor any common rules or organisation. EB gives them the kopis sword, Rome II gives them axes, a quick google search shows that they could also be equipped with a falx. Whatever fits the game mechanics best, but I'd like to see them with axes since there are very few other unites with axes (thus making them more unique and not just another swordsmen unit).
An interesting thing I read is that a Carian at the Pharao's court is credited to say that ''the Carians were the first to use feathers on their helmets''. However, that quote is from about 600 BC so they would probably (and sadly!) have looked different by the Hellenistic age :p

By the way I think it is important, that they belong to the normal troops. While they initially came to Egypt as mercenaries in the 7th and 6th centuries BC, they settled down there over the generations and had their own communities, for example in Memphis (Hrdt. 1,1,3), like the Jews in Alexandria or later the Italians in Constantinople. So they should be recruitable there.
The other foreign troops, Thracians, Rhodians, Cretans and Galatians also formed part of the main body of the Ptolemaic Army. Quoting one historian ''During peace time, these troops formed the majority of the army''. Many Galatians emmigrated to Egypt after their expedition into Asia Minor came to a halt thanks to the rising power of Pergamon (late 3rd century BC) while Eastern Crete was occupied by the Ptolemies at the same time and the Nesiotic League (of which Rhodos was a member for a while) came under heavy Ptolemaic influence, while the independent Rhodos also always enjoyed good relations with Ptolemaic Egypt.
This means, that especially the Carians, and to a slightly lesser extent the Cretans and Rhodians, and to again a lesser extent the Galatians were always available and thus different to mercenaries who would be hired ad hoc.

[Bercor]

I agree.

[ahowl11]

Sorry MausOlos

Okay so for Macedon:
Keep Thureophoroi
Add Agema Hypaspists
No Thorakitai

Seleucids:
Camel Corps

Ptolemies:
Katoikoi Cavalry
Carian Warband *AOR Caria/Egypt

I'll keep the Lonchophoroi but I don't know about Aspidophoroi. Are there any written records on either of them?

Also, with all of these units for the Diadochi, how are we going to recruit them?

I think that a 'Doryphoroi' unit will serve well as a garrison unit.

And what are your thoughts about Asian, Greek, and Egyptian troops being available to all Diadochi factions?

[Jubal]

I'm generally of the opinion that local troops should be available to all the Diadochi as AOR types, given they were all operating pretty similar governance models it makes quite a lot of sense.

[Mausolos of Caria]

Seeing they serve in the Ptolemaic army it might be better to call them ''Carian Light Infantry'' or something like that (Warriors, Infantry, Axemen, whatever), since ''warband'' implies they are free of any command structures

I have really no idea where I should even look to find Aspidophoroi or Lonchophoroi being mentioned. Even those mods that used them admits that they are only obscurely mentioned in a few passages and the internet doesn't know about them at all (like a wikipedia article where there are notes like ''Polybios, I''). Furthermore, translations of the ancient sources will call them different, while Greek originals would put them in Greek letters so it's nigh impossible to find those obscure passages.

What exactly do you mean? I guess there should be buildings for them? 

I'm not sure if Doryphoroi is a good name for a militia unit, since it is usually connected with Peisistratos' mercenary bodyguard (while not really an elite, they were also called Doryphoroi) or sometimes statues of spear bearers are called Doryphoroi. In Greek versions of Roman sources the Praetorians are called Doryphoroi.

Well we have already included the Egyptian troops for the Ptolemies, do you mean the other Diadochi should have the possibilty to recruit them if they are to conquer Egypt?
As for the other two factions, Macedon should definitely have access to Greek hoplites, peltasts and hippeis in Thessalia, Euboia & Corinth (all the territories they control outside of Macedon). The Seleucids should also have access to Sparabara and other local troops in the East, fitting to the different region. But I would like us to make the cheaper troops of their main roster easily available and not primarily local troops, since on many mods you see the Seleucids fielding armies made up of much more local troops than Phalangites and other Hellenistic units and while the latter's number was obviously restricted, they were also careful in recruiting not too many locals (not as cautious as the Ptolemies, but still).

[ahowl11]

Hmmm I say we don't include Lonchophoroi or Aspidophoroi then, just because of the murkiness of their existence.

So what do you suggest as a militia/garrison unit?

Also, yes that is what I am saying. If Macedon conquered Egypt they should have access to the local troops. If Macedon conquered the east they should have access to the asian troops.

[Mausolos of Caria]

1. Well maybe they did exist, I mean there are many famous battles or persons we only know from 1 or 2 lines in an obscure author's text who lived 500 years after the things happened. I just don't know where to look since I've never heard or read about these cavalry units outside of EB & RSII. Do you know the historians of EB or RS, for chance? We could ask them after their sources for those units then.

2. For all Diadochoi? We don't have to dig too deep there if you ask me, just give them a citizen militia based on vanilla's militia hoplites and it should be fine. Call them citizen militia or militia spearmen or so, I don't think we need to find a proper Greek name for a garrison unit.

3. Yeah I'm okay with that.