Announcement/Discussion: Faction List

[ahowl11]

Alright, now that I have a good number of people ready to get started, I'll post the first discussion topic. This centers on the BASE faction list for this entire project. Here is the whole concept regarding factions with this mod:

-Initially there will be a Grand Campaign (what is being developed currently), that will be similar to RTRPE, RS2, XGM, XC, EB and other total conversion mods featuring a bigger map, one roman faction etc. However the difference with this mod is that the 'little factions' are not of extreme importance for the grand campaign. Instead 'super factions' will be regarded as more important. Here is why:
This mod is not mod foldered for a reason. Every faction will eventually have it's own modfolder similar to how RS2 does it. So debating over whether Pergamum, Bactria, Epirus, Arverni, or Celt-Iberians should be in or not is of no use. Eventually they will all be playable in their own mod folder. This 'Grand Campaign' is focused on the BIG PICTURE. However it will be very entertaining to play as, you just won't have the 'one region' factions like Galatia or Pergamum to choose to play as.

-With all that being said let's take a look at what the current faction list will look like for the Grand Campaign.

Start Date: 280 BC
End Date: 4 choices; 107 BC, 30 BC, 14 AD, 117 AD (Something that we can discuss as well)

Current Faction List:
1. Rome - Julii
2. Carthage
3. Antigonids
4. Seleucids
5. Ptolemies
6. Parthia
7. Pontus
8. Armenia

The above eight, represent the 'big boys' of the era at that time. There is no reason for any of them to be changed, swapped or merged. Consider them hard coded.

9. Greek Cities (Would Represent: Athens, Achaean League, Massilia, Byzantium, Rhodes)
10. Greek States - Brutii (Would Represent: Sparta, Aetolian League, Pergamum*, Bosporan Kingdom)
*Pergamum could go to the Hellenic Kingdoms in exchange for Syracuse

The above two would shadow each other and loyalty would be enabled for them.

11. Hellenic Kingdoms - Scipii (Would Represent: Epirus [Including Syracuse], Cyrene, Bactria)

The HK would shadow the Antigonids, Seleucids, and Ptolemies making it a little more interesting if there were to be a revolt. Again loyalty would be enabled.

12. Gauls (Representing: Aedui, Cisalpine Gauls, Noricum)
13. Celtic Tribes - Senate (Representing: Celt-Iberians, Arverni, Galatia)

Again Loyalty Enabled

14. Germans
15. Geto-Dacians (From my research they were the same people)
16. Iberians
17. Sarmatians

The Barbarian Factions will be in but as we all know they were composed of many tribes who were almost never united.

18. Numidia (Or Desert Kingdoms/Eastern Kingdoms) [Representing: Massylii, Cappadocia, Atropatene, Arachosia, Nabataea]
19. Illyria (Or Independent Peopled/Barbarian Kingdoms) [Representing: Ardiaei, Odrysian Kingdom, Royal Scyths, Belgae, Massagetae]

These two could or could not be super factions. Numdia/Illyria are on the bubble so to speak. - edit, they will stay as Numidia and Illyria, see post #3 for reasoning

20. Independent Peoples (Representing: Saba, Ethiopia, Mauryans, Luistani, Britons, Ligurians, Other Greek Cities such as Argos)
21. Rebels (Any state and or kingdom or tribe that was not of enough importance to get a super faction, also revolts like Spartacus)
Basically the Free People faction similar to what RS2 has.

Now these unit rosters will be based off AOR so it will greatly limit the room for expansion, but they will war with each other, trade, act in diplomacy and make things interesting.

So there you have it. Before we say 'Hell no' or 'Hell yes' to this proposition, we would need to do testing since it is only a thesis at this point.

Give me your thoughts!

[Jubal]

How well does the AI deal with superbigfactions is my main question here - Epirus, Cyrene, and Bactria are a long way apart so things like distance from capital unrest would be an instant issue.

[ahowl11]

Yes, and that's why I am considering the above list to be a thesis. Extensive testing will be needed with this faction set-up. I also would need to speak to Zarax of XC, DBH of XGM and dvk901 of RS/RS2 to see how they handled it with their super factions.

Also I would like to keep Numidia and Illyria as a faction of their own instead of making them super factions. I thought about it a lot and it's just too much. The two greek super factions, a celtic super faction, and an independent peoples faction (which will mirror the rebels but have diplomacy and trade) should suffice. We can always try the other two out for kicks later.

[Mausolos of Caria]

First of all that's an interesting concept. Taking the superfactions from RTR VII and the Swap factions from RS II sounds like a neat solution. If we have Hellenic kingdoms I agree that Pergamon should belong to them instead of Syracuse- the latter can be considered both a Hellenic kingdom and a Greek city-state, while Pergamon would be more clearly a Hellenistic kingdom. But I also have to agree that Bactria would be a big problem (Epiros, Kyrene and Pergamon together might work but Bactria is really too far away).

Mayve I'm just stupid or this is modding speech, but what do you mean with loyalty enabled?

[ahowl11]

As far as Bactria is concerned, it will require testing.

Loyalty is a BI feature used with the WRE and ERE as well as the Goths. All of your family members have loyalty similar to management, command, and influence. If your family member or General has low loyalty and your city revolts, it is very likely that he and his army will join the revolt. So by having a Hellenic Kingdoms faction, they can shadow the Diadochi Factions.

So for example, the Seleucids would start off by owning Bactria in 280 but if the General inside the city has low loyalty and the city revolts, the Kingdom of Bactria would be present! You can do the same for Egypt and Macedon.

For Gaul we would have the Celtic Tribes shadow them.

For the Greek Cities and Greek States, they could shadow each other.

[Mausolos of Caria]

Ahh yes that's a good idea. Just make sure there's a random (while logical) element in it. In RS II Commagene would always rebel from the Seleucids to join Armenia on turn 2 or 3, which made war inevitable, and when I played Parthia Palmyra joined my on turn 4  The first became a bit annoying, the second didn't make sense.

But probably what I'm saying here in two sentences needs extensive programming 

[ahowl11]

Yes, lots of testing will be needed. This is why I have recruited so many BETA testers.

[b257]

Honestly, I still think Baktria should be added to the main faction list, I'm thinking for gameplay reasons. I mean in my Seleucid campaign I'm able to send a stack from Antioch and steamroll Parthia in the east and Pontus and Armenia usually go at each other which frees me up to attack the Ptolemy's and claim Anatolia. I think we just needed an extra added threat to the east.

[ahowl11]

I think we can do that with the Hellenic Kingdoms by making the Seleucid Empire weak and vulnerable in the east. We can almost force Bactria to emerge with the HK. We can also try and make Parthia more aggressive and stronger, maybe even make them a horde faction. Plus with the Independent Peoples faction we can simulate the Mauryans presence. The Sarmatians also have a settlement up there. Instead of making a new faction I think we should make it a little hectic for the Seleucids with the existing factions.

[b257]

Sounds like a plan

[Sigma]

Just be careful though since most mods that do that end up invoking the Ptolemy issue where the Seleucids AI is so focused on the east that Egypt steamrolls them from the west with little opposition and causes the Seleucids to collapse and be taken apart extremely quick.

A Example: Take for instance my EB game as the Casse I'm currently playing, it's 235 B.C. and I turn FoW off and find the Selucids only own a small sliver of Anatolia and a few territories in the middle of Persia. The east was completely taken over by Saka-Raka, Parthia, Bactria, and the Middle East and Most of Anatolia is owned by Egypt with north Anatolia being owned by Pontus.

[ahowl11]

It definitely will be hard to keep the Seleucids afloat. It will just require in-depth testing to finally figure it out. I believe all mods struggle with the Seleucids

[The Sloth]

Just some thoughts.

1) From what I've seen playing some older variations of Roma Surrectum, the AI is very reluctant to attack superfactions, because their overall strength is so enormous. The AI doesn't think it can win, even when the superfaction's main forces are on the othe side of the map.

2) Lawfulness for superfactions is no problem at all. Since they're unplayable (right?), you can just give them as much +law on their buildings as you want.

3) You seem to have an awful lot of factions there. I thought the maximum was 20+slaves? Does your list include the vanilla slave faction, or do you only want "real" factions?

4) What's with that "Independent Peoples" faction? Since a faction needs to belong to a culture, wouldn't you end up with barbarian settlements in Arabia, or with eastern settlements in Britain?

[Jubal]

That's an excellent point wrt the Independent Peoples, the culture would be quite messed up.

[ahowl11]

I'll answer everything:


1. That's interesting, I'm eager to test that out once we get started on the next phase.
2. They will have the option to be playable. I don't see why we should make them unplayable. Maybe the Independent factions could be unplayable.
3. There is only 21 by having superfactions it allows us to use mod folders for swap factions.
4. I will be in talks with dvk901 about how he managed to do it with RS and RS2.