Author Topic: Discussion: New Faction Units  (Read 59368 times)

ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #120 on: February 25, 2014, 12:11:43 AM »
If you were to conquer crete they would be available. I can edit them out since they won't be immediately available
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Bercor

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #121 on: February 25, 2014, 12:14:12 AM »
Uhm, ok. I understand it now.

ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #122 on: February 25, 2014, 12:20:49 AM »
We could add a few units it seems.

Boetian Phalangites
Achaean Phalangites

Iphicratean Phalangites

Ekdromoi Hoplites

Perioeki Phalangites
Perioeki Hoplites
Perioeki Infantry
Helot Slaves
Helot Peltasts

Aetolian Cavalry
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Bercor

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #123 on: February 25, 2014, 12:39:41 AM »
Was the Achaean/Boetian phalangite so distinctive that they should be separeted from the normal phalangite? Also, I don't think we should give so many units to a single city in a superfaction (Sparta). I agree with the Ekdromoi and the Aetolian cavalry, though.

ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #124 on: February 25, 2014, 12:51:41 AM »
The Boetian Phalanx was the first Phalangite units used by Greeks in 250 BC. The Achaean Phalanx came later sometime after 220 BC?

True that could make a faction too powerful. I think Perioeki Phalangites should be in though. Maybe Helot Skirmishers? We will have to wait for Mausolos' knowledge :)
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Bercor

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #125 on: February 25, 2014, 01:06:54 AM »
Yeah, summon the Mausolos.

Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #126 on: February 25, 2014, 01:34:20 AM »
Possible, yes, but unlikely (on the Agema question). The quality of the Pergamene troops is usually described as inferior to those of the Seleucids, while Kyrene fielded only provincial Ptolemaic troops, so both probably missed out on the elite troops (especially Kyrene). At least the Attalids had enough time to standardise their army similar to their Seleucid neighbours and found military settlements to defend their borders (a little difference to the Seleucid or Ptolemaic cleruchies).

Maybe the Ptolemaic Empire should have Gastraphetes, since both our sources for them being used in the Hellenistic world lived in Alexandria.

I will work in more detail on the Greek roster since there are dozens of different factions. For now, I can only say that Corinthian hoplites probably don't make much sense due to the fact that it was always occupied by Macedon, or part of the Achaian League, during our timeframe. Probably we can also dimiss Syracusan hoplites since they favoured to rely on mercenaries.

In general, how would these hoplites differ from each other, apart from the looks and the obviously very special Spartiates?

Edit: Oh it seems like I missed a lot here during typing, I'll discuss that tomorrow in a bigger post about all the Greek armies ;) On Crete, I've been thinking about this for a while now... considering the fact that there was a lot of inter-poleis wars and even a Ptolemaic garrison on the Eastern part of the Island we might consider splitting it into two regions, if we are going to do the same for Sardinia anyway.
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ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #127 on: February 25, 2014, 02:39:17 AM »
Sounds good, looking forward to it!
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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #128 on: February 25, 2014, 04:49:29 PM »
Okay, on the Greek cities... it is difficult to attach certain units to the hundreds of different factions and city states, but I will give some information on the most important actors:

Achaian League: Probably the most renowned and exemplary Greek army in the mainland. While their hoplites were not as impressive as the Spartans, they would later adopt the Macedonian phalanx and use them to great effectivity. They were probably the only ones to adopt Thorakitai later on, but their cavalry was somewhat inefficient until the reforms of Philopoemen. Like most other states, they also used the Ekdroimoi, light hoplites who could fight in the old phalanx style, but would exit it (hence the name) to flank enemy troops.

Aitolian League: Due to their position in the North Western mountains, they were especially skilled in skirmishing and especially their peltasts were regarded as worthy foes. Primarily citizen levies, few mercenaries, favoured Cretan archers and Tarentine style cavalry as mercenaries . Later adopted the Macedonian phalanx. Their whole cavalry only numbered at 500 men and was never higher than that, but it was regarded as very effective, the infantry manpower was about 14 000. Generally avoided big pitched battles and fortified it's own lands to follow a very defensive strategy. Defeated Celtic, Macedonian and other Greek armies (like the Boiotians) thanks to their fortresses and the use of missile troops like slingers or peltasts from hills. Very flexible army.

Athens: During this time they had a little army, that was primarily a defensive garrison and rarely ever left Attica. Iphicrates' reforms already came in the early 4th century and seem to have increased the strength and number of the peltasts. It is hard to see if he only recruited peltasts or if hoplites (who are said to have been equipped with longer spears and little shiels to be more fleixbile) were actually very much like phalangites. Okay I'll translate this here from a dictionary:

Quote
(...) die Peltasten, die, mit kleinem runden Schild, leinenem Panzer, Gamaschen (Iphikratiden) statt Beinschienen, langer Lanze und großem Schwert bewaffnet (...)

''Peltasts were equipped with a little, oval shield, linen armor, leggings (Iphikratides) instead of jambarts, long lances and a big sword.''

Apart from that Athens relied on their citizen infantry with some hippeis and usually Ptolemaic reinforcements.

Boiotian League: The first of the free Greeks to adopt the Macedonian phalanx, perhaphs even before 250 BC. Boiotia was usually believed to be a hoplite country, and fielded quite a big army in 245 BC with 10 000 men, which was roundly defeated by a much smaller Aitolian force and indicates a decline in the quality of the Boiotian army despite its adoption of the Macedonian phalanx around the same time.

Bosporan ''Empire'': Initially a citizen hoplite army like everyone else. Skythian influences led to an early adoption of oval shields and probably also the recruitment of Thureophoroi. It seems doubtful if they adopted the Macedonian phalanx before Mithridates of Pontos took over the rule. From a Polish book I could gather as much, that their hoplites would also throw javelins or darts, similar to the native tribes of the Maeotis. They were later influenced by Roman traditions and during the time of the Principate they would equip their soldiers with big shields a lance and three or five javelins, very much like Lanciarii. A bit late for our timeframe, though, but this development might have begun earlier, with a similar increase of Sarmatian cavalry since the days of Caesar. All in all, an archaic Greek army combined with Scytho- Sarmatian skirmisher warfare

Cretan League: Old- style citizen militia, never used mercenaries. Strong cretan archers and skilled skirmishers, similar to the Aitolians, that inflicted heavy losses on their Macedonian and later Roman foes. Defeated Rome in the first Roman- Cretan war thanks to skirmisher warfare and 24 000 citizen soldiers. Experts at ambushes.

Massalia: Those mods that have them represent them with heavy Celtic influences. While units liek Thureophoroi or even Thorakitai (considering their alliance with Rome) are likely, they seem to have been mostly a victim of raids by their Celtic neighbours. During the 2nd Punic War the Volcae tribe were allies of Rome and thus might also have been allied to Massalia, but the sources hint more at Ligurian slaves (not captured by war, but by commerce, though) and contacts to them. Other mods also claim they had strong archers, but again it is hard to find proof for that. The problem lays in the focus on its navy, similar to Rhodes or similar states. Their army doesn't seem to have been very great since they always called on Rome for help, but I guess we could give them good archers, Ligurian auxiliaries and Thorakitai.

Rhodes: Same as Massalia, they favoured ships over armies. Maybe we can give both of these a shipyard where they have access to improved ships, and an additional building that increases their urban trade income. Howeber, Rhodes tried to expand in Asia Minor and held a peraia in Caria for a good while, so they could get access to the Carian infantry the Ptolemies use as well. And obviously, Rhodian slingers.

Sparta: Fielded it's old, well known army with Spartiates, helot skirmishers and other units like the famous Skiritai, basically no cavalry and the Kyrpteia, teenagers that had to survive on their own for a year and where also used to terrorize the helots. Later this ancient army was reformed by Agis IV, Kleomenes III and Nabis, who introduced the Macedonian phalanx, naturalized Perioikoi and helots and recruited mercenaries: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?584316-Sparta-in-the-hellenistic-period

Syracuse: (And other Sicilian Greeks) Strong cavalry, heavier than the common hippeis. Heavily relied on mercenaries, fielded Peloponnesian hoplites as well as Macedonian phalanges and unique siege weapons (like the various devices constructed by Archimedes). Since it's geographical position between Carthage and Rome they would also field Thureophoroi, Thorakitai, mercenaries from abroad and also draw on Sicel troops.

Thessalian League: Famous for the Thessalian cavalry, the most effective and most feared regular shock cavalry of the day. It also possessed a federal army, most likely made up of citizen hoplites and peltasts. During Epirote or Macedonian occupations they obviously fought under foreign lords, and the position between the two Hellenistic kingdom probably means they also had their own phalangites at some point.

That's all I could gather thus far. I'll be in the library tomorrow because of my paper and will skip by the part about ancient warfare. Perhaps I can find out some additional stuff.
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xeofox

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #129 on: February 25, 2014, 06:13:24 PM »
 
Sorry again about the steppes of Central Asia.
Given the proposed boundary maps. Will Sako-masagetae tribes and Dahae. There will be separate from the Dahae Parni (or moving away from them) and would send its troops to the South. Massagetae, will call (Saka-massagetae tribes).

If a larger map (to the North), or simply the principle of realism. Will all the same, only the tribes of Saki and massagetae will be different (but friendly). Here is another problem the scenario. We should see the Wusun who will press on to Saka from East. but, for the sake of the beautiful company of Parthia Wusun we can not insert
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 06:21:53 PM by xeofox »



ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #130 on: February 25, 2014, 11:37:20 PM »
Okay Mausolos, great research. I've seen a few of these units such as Aetolian Skirmishers and Peloponnesian hoplites in Philadelphos' RTH mod, but sadly they are just edited vanilla units.
Tomorrow after your research if you could come up with what you think would be a suitable roster for the Greek Cities/Greek States that would help immensely.
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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #131 on: February 26, 2014, 07:00:43 PM »
Okay guys, I'm back from our uni library and the results of the research are, to speak frankly, overwhelming. Not only units for the Greek city states and leagues, but also for the successor kingdoms, most of them mercenaries, but I'll just list everything here:

Seleucid Empire

Asian Levies consist of the Pantodapoi (meaning: ''Mixed Infantry'', mostly styled as Macedonian phalanxes but without the experience of the Macedonian veterans) and a more traditional infantry, probably Sparabara - like infantry made up of Medes, Cissians, Cadusians, Caramanians and others.

Persian Archers (AOR Persia) - obviously very strong archers, if we go for a Greek name Persai Toxotai

Persian slingers (AOR Persia) - they did exist, but were probably very light troops, not as effective as Rhodian slingers, for instance

Carmanian infantry (AOR Carmania) - Probably Light Spearmen or Javelinmen

Cilician Light Infantry (AOR Cilicia)- Labelled ''Cilician Pirates'' in other mods, probably javelinmen with a sword and very few armour, or light swordsmen (see RTR VII)

Pisidian Infantry (AOR Pisidia)- Native levies, probably Sparabara- like Spearmen, too

Pamphylian Cavalry (AOR Pamphylia) - Heavy Cavalry, but not exactly renowned, not as strong as Thessalian or Cappadocian heavy cavalry

Neocretans- Settlers (Greeks/Macedonians) in Cretan Style= Archers

Agrianian Peltasts- already described for Macedon, Elite skirmisher unit, the Seleucids also had a few hundred of them, maybe AOR Antiocheia, so they can't be recruited too often

Mysian Infantry (AOR Mysia) - Lightly armoured, probably skirmishers or Light hoplites or both

Jewish Infantry (AOR Judaea/Palestinia) - A small number, they didn't fight in a phalanx but I can't find much more on their equipment. They were ONLY recruited from Diaspora Jews and seem to have been an effective force, being successfull in crashing lesser rebellions in the East. The Seleucids almost NEVER EVER employed Syrians (including Palestinian Jews), because it was their power base and they feared similar consequences as the Machimoi had in Egypt. Greco- Macedonian troops could still surpress uprisings in far parts of the Empire like Pamphylia or Carmania, if those troops rebelled, but Syria (and Babylonia probably, too) was too important. Only Babylonian Jews and other Diaspora Jews were recruited and formed this skilled force

Lydian Akontistai (AOR Lydia)- Those of the Psiloi that fought as javelinmen were called Akontistai. The Lydians are compared to the Agrianians by the author I read, so they might have been an elite (Elite Javelinmen)

Mercenaries of the Seleucid Empire:

Arab mercenaries (AOR Arabia) - Light spearmen probably, as portrayed in RTR or RS. When the Seleucids fought in the South, they were sometimes recruited in huge numbers (over 10 000 were present at the battle of Raphia)

Galatian swordsmen (AOR Asia Minor, Thrace, Macedon and the Western Balkans... if the Seleucids ever thus far) - not much has to be said on them

Galatian cavalry - same, noble cavalry

Thracian mercenaries- probably swordsmen and falxmen

Dahae mounted archers- the good old horse archers we all love, recruited from the Dahae tribes beyond the border of the Seleucid lands

Dahae foot archers- at Raphia, a number of 2000 Dahae infantry is mentioned. No further information on them, but they were very likely archers


See, that's only the Seleucids! I will continue in another post so you can read this before I write about all factions.

Footnote: Slingers in general are called Sfendonitai or Lithovoloi, but maybe we should just leave them as slingers because the names could be too confusing.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 11:43:19 PM by Mausolos of Caria »
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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #132 on: February 26, 2014, 07:10:42 PM »
And on we go...

THE PTOLEMAIC EMPIRE

Cilician Light Infantry (AOR Cilicia) - see above, should also be available on Cyprus as mercenaries

A note on the Thracian mercenaries: Those the Ptolemies hired were Broadswordsmen, NOT falxmen

Lycian infantry (AOR Aegean, Cyprus) - the main garrison force in all Ptolemaic settlements outside of Africa, along with the Cilicians. Probably a bit heavier than the Cilicians, I would imagine them as hoplite- like

Libyan Cavalry (AOR Libya- which basically starts West of Alexandria)- could be the same unit the Carthaginians have

Libyan phalanx- Yes, indeed, the Ptolemies also armed some thousand Libyans as a Macedonian phalanx

Neocretans- see above

Cretan archers- we mentioned that above, but again I must insist to have them as regular forces like the Carians. Yes, they were paid and recruited like mercenaries, but often came to live in Egypt and the example of the Neocretans shows their big influence on Ptolemaic warfare

Greek hoplites- Peloponnesians, fighting as mercenaries


Perhaps a solution for the many Greek, Thracian and Galatian mercenaries could be, that we give the Ptolemies the same mercenary recruiting harbour as Carthage. Food for thought. I will continue splitting my posts for each faction so you won't get confused too much. And sorry for mixing levies and mercenaries in this post, but it weren't as many new units as for the Seleucids.
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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #133 on: February 26, 2014, 07:24:23 PM »
Number Three

THE ANTIGONID KINGDOM OF MACEDON

Paionian skirmishers- recruited from the lands of Paionia, west of Macedon. Since the Agrianians also hailed from there, these could be a weaker version, axemen throwing javelins

Kleruchoi- yes, they are already in the roster, but we should be aware of the fact that Macedon did not really found new military settlements after 320 BC and these men were so rare and valuable that they didn't fight in ''common'' wars, only when it was really important. So they should be good warriors, but on restricted availability

INSTEAD Macedon settled it's mercenaries in new colonies, even Gauls, but mainly Thracians and Illyrians.

The mercenaries of Macedon

The proportion of mercenaries in the Macedonian army was ever on the rise and by the 2nd century BC they made up the majority of the army, with the greatest corps always coming from Illyria

Illyrian mercenaries- on RTR 6 & 7 they were spearmen and battle descriptions seem to confirm that assumption. More flexible than hoplites, but ligher armoured, experts in ambushes and difficult terrain

Gallic/Galatian swordsmen - see above

Gallic skirmishers- see above

Cretan archers- In 220 BC (I think, I didn't put down the year) Macedon struck a treaty with the Cretan cities Eleuthernae and Hierapytna to deliver the kingdom with a steady stream of mercenaries. Thus we shouldn't underestimate their number, after the wars against Rome many of them continued to fight- but now in the service of Rome

Thracian infantry- see above

Trallian infantry- Thracians recruited from the Trallian tribe of Thrace. By the 180s BC the Trallians were chosen as an elite force and personal bodyguard of the king of Macedon. Maybe we could call them Trallian guard and make them available only late on, with them being stronger than the ''normal'' Thracian mercenaries

For the Third war against Rome, Perseus also paid 20 000 (!) Bastarnae to fight alongside him to sweep away the Romans. 10 000 of them fought on horses

Another general point: I think we haven't included artillery in the rosters yet, have we?
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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #134 on: February 26, 2014, 07:36:03 PM »
EPIROS and PERGAMON

1. THE AIAKID KINGDOM OF EPIROS

A general information: Beloch guessed the population of Epiros at roughly 300 000 at this time. Thought it could be useful.

Gallic mercenaries (infantry)- see above

Aetolian/Akarnanian/Athamanian mercenary infantry- hoplites

Cavalry from the same regions- like hippeis


2. THE ATTALID RULE (later Kingdom) OF PERGAMON

Mysian light infantry (AOR Mysia) - as Mysia was mostly controlled by Pergamon, they might have been quite important. See above at the Seleucid roster for the unit

Trallian mercenaries- no elite this time, just Thracian mercenaries, but those used by Pergamon were only recruited from the European Thracian tribe of the Trallians

Seleucid Katoikoi ! (AOR Seleucid regions) - Yes you read this right. When Pergamene influence expanded into formerly Seleucid controlled territories like Sardes, the Seleucid settlers would just offer their services to Pergamon. Fighting as a Macedonian phalanx, of course- but it would be reasonable to assume that they prefered to fight against Macedon, Bithynia and the Galatians and very rarely against their Seleucid comrades

Cretan archers- mercenaries, see above. As ever hellenistic state, Pergamon also used them

Achaian peltasts- after the alliance with the Achaian League against Macedon, 2000 Achaian peltasts were handed over under Pergamene command for a decent sum of gold

Later, when expanding there:

Cilician light infantry/pirates (AOR Cilicia)- see above

Carian warriors/light infantry (AOR Caria)- see above

Kilikes (Cilician) Euzonoi (AOR) - Cilician skirmishers, see RTR VII
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 11:42:20 PM by Mausolos of Caria »
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