Discussion: New Faction Units

[Mausolos of Caria]

Tell us if you think the Bactrian roster is incomplete

I just checked RTR VII and then edited the post for a last time. Now you can update the starting post I think, ahowl 

[ahowl11]

I'll have to write everything on paper first!

[Mausolos of Caria]

Haha okay. I just counted the Seleucid roster including mercenaries and there are 43 units 

By the way I'm not so sure about Hypaithroi for the Allied phalangites anymore... it just seems to mean ''troops in the field'' 

[ahowl11]

Greek Cities and Greek States are up. I didn't include many AOR and Mercenary troops just because this thread is based on factional troops only.
Check to make sure it's correct
Well should we get rid of them? Did they use Allied Pezoi?

[Bercor]

No Rhodian slingers?
You're breaking my heart.

[ahowl11]

Ooops! Fixed

[ahowl11]

Mausolos, trying to figure out units for Macedon and Carthage. Can you go to the OP and give me information on how the units with '??' next to them may have looked? That way I can search around for the right looking models/textures for them.
I am at work all day tomorrow also. If you get the info on Pontus and any other eastern nations feel free to post them here

[Mausolos of Caria]

1. Yeah just the term Hypaithroi seems to be wrong, name them Allied Phalangites again to be safe (although I'm not sure who these allies are...? lol)

2. So where are we putting the AOR troops and mercenaries together?

3. On the Hellenic Kingdoms roster you spelt the Pantodapoi wrongly. DApoi, not dOpoi The Seleucid roster has it right.

4. On the Greek states there is some units you put under the ''common'' roster, that are wrong:

a) Hippakontistai were Iranian mounted javelinmen, the Seleucids used them, the Antigonids and Ptolemies probably inherited them from the part of Alexander's armies they had, Bactria would have them and perhaps Pergamon, but they've got nothing to do with the Greek cities/leagues. Since Sarmatians are also Iranians, ONLY the Bosporan kingdom should have Hippakontistai, scrap them for everyone else.

b) Scrap Xystophoroi. They are just a regular cavalry version of Hippeis. The Successor states modernized their military, so noble cavalry was divided into different units- xystos bearers (xystophoroi), scouts (prodromoi), elite xystos bearers (hetairoi), Sarissa bearers (sarrissophoroi) and special units like cataphracts. The traditional Greek nobles are all named hippeis (with a sword or xystos), ''those who can afford a horse.'' The only other cavalry are scout detachments (prodromoi).

c) Scrap Thorakitai for the common roster. ONLY for Achaian League, Syracuse and Massalia.

5. The Seleucid and Ptolemaic rosters should include the Neocretans as reform units. Okay, Agrianians and Paionians can be made AOR, too...

6. How they looked?  Well I'lly try to...

Leukaspides - phalanx wearing white shields with decorations. You said yourself they were younger men

Prodromoi - I think RTR 6 and VII both hade nice models for them

Xystophoroi- similar to Thessalian cavalry, with a long xystos and without a shield (?). Have a look at the Thessalian model

Punic Thureophoroi - no idea, mate. Maybe RTR 6 or VII has them?

African Infantry - the ones styled in Roman fashion? RTR VII has them

Libyan hoplites- where's the difference to Liby- Phoenician hoplites? Libyans usually didn't fight as hoplites

Libyan infantry- RTR VII?

Libyan cavalry- again most mods should have them, right?

[Mausolos of Caria]

New units:

Aitolian pirates (mercenaries)/ Aitolai peiratai- similar to Cilician pirates, lightly armoured, but cheap swordsmen. Just like you imagine pirates > Epiros & Macedon used them

Aitolian peltasts (mercenaries)- I already put them on the Epirote list, but the Ptolemies also used them, so they should also be available in their mercenary port

Aitolian cavalry should probably be Greek Hippakontistai and also be available as mercenaries to Epiros (since Pyrrhos had some of them in Italy)


Lonchophoroi (Seleucids) - I finally found evidence for them. But how were they equipped? Flamininus says in his famous speach to the Roman allies:

,, Men of Achaia! Don't fear Antiochos' men, don't fear the Lonchophoroi, don't fear the Xystophoroi and don't fear the Hetairoi, since they are all Syrians after all, just differentiated by different weapons'' Well apart from the fact that they were actually not Syrians ( ), Lonchophoroi are often translated as ''spear- bearers'' here. From Flamininus' word we can see that they didn't wear a Xystos either.

This leaves as with two possibilities: Either they had short spears and were a melee cavalry unit, or they had spears as missiles and were akin to Hippakontistai. Since the latter seems very ordinary and to draw on the conclusions of both other mods and authors, it seems most likely that they had a short spear (2.5m like hoplites I'd say) and javelins. So they are mounted javelinmen, that can also survive in melee. Only the Seleucids seem to have fielded them, and that was after 200 BC.

Pamphylian Infantry (AOR Pamphylia or mercenaries to the Ptolemies. Wouldn't include them in the port, though, since they were rare) - Similar to Lycians, heavy spearmen, akin to hoplites

[Mausolos of Caria]

THE KINGDOM OF PONTOS

Pontic bowmen - typical Eastern archers

Pontic peltasts - yeah, peltasts, you know

Pontic slingers- common slingers

Native Spearmen- similar to Sparabara

Galatian swordsmen (mercenaries)- see above

Galatian cavalry (mercenaries)- see above

Hippakontistai - mounted Eastern javelinmen

Scythed chariots- see above

Greek hoplites- recruited from Greek cities like Amisos or Sinope that were resp. came under Pontic control

Oreioi (Mountaineers)- experts at ambushes and in mountains, javelinmen that can also pack a punch in melee- RTR VII has them

Armenian heavy cavalry- RTR 6 has them


New units after ,,reforms'' (The Army of Mithridates VI):


Pontic Pezoi - wearing bronze shields and jewels on their shields to display Pontos' wealth, allegedly

Slave phalanx (!) - yes, slaves fighting in a Macedonian phalanx. Mithridates organised 15 000 of them for his war against Rome. Desperate warriors, cheap to recruit

Chalkaspides - named after the original Brazen Shields, these warriors were the elite force of Mithridates' Macedonian phalanx

Perso- Cappadocian noble cavalry- probably akin to Cappadocian cavalry, perhaps the same?

Scythian horse archers (AOR Crimea/Northern Kaukasus) - doesn't need much comment I think

Sarmatian horse archers (same)- same, perhaps with more armour

Thracian infantry (mercenaries)- see above

Kolchian auxiliaries - probably spearmen?

Taurian infantry (AOR Crimea and Northern Kaukasus) - see above

Scythian archers (AOR Crimea and Northern Kaukasus) - Scythian foot bowmen

Imitation legionaries- named ''hypaspists'' in Greek, these men were equipped in the Roman fashion after the first war with Pontos' western foe

Cretan archers (mercenaries)- see above

[ahowl11]

So many changes haha. Maybe you should be in charge of formatting the greek and hellenic unit rosters. I'm getting lost

[b257]

My head is literally spinning from all the possible units , Mausolos you are a history machine  .

[Mausolos of Caria]

Hehe cheers guys  The main problem is the high number of mercenaries spread along all factions I guess. But that's just the fact, apart from the Greek city-states respectively leagues and Rome, the armies of the great kingdoms and factions of the time (Seleucids, Ptolemies, Carthage, Pergamon, Pontos, Antigonids, Bactria, Epiros, Syracuse etc.) were almost always made up of a great number of mercenaries.
Just take a look at the Seleucid phalanx of Antiochos III- of 20 000 men only 3000 (!) were proper Pezhetairoi, some were natives, some were allies, and over 8000 were mercenaries. This if, of course, the part of the army where mercenaries often made up the smallest proportion, so it's fair to say that a majority of all soldiers were mercenaries. The cleruch system didn't produce enough soldiers in the long time and the epigonoi (sons of the katoikoi) were just too few to satisfy the demand of the state. In 280 BC, the Ptolemaic Empire coudl theoretically call over 250 000 men into arms - by the end of the 2nd century the number had shrunken to less than 80 000.

So what we should discuss is the recruitment of mercenaries and their distribution. I think most of them should be available in high numbers in their native regions, but Cretan archers (for example) should also be available in Macedon, Athens, or Rhodes - or perhaps every Hellenic port should make them recruitable? They shouldn't be too cheap, though.

Give me some ideas how to represent this and then we'll have a better order of the faction rosters

[Bercor]

The only problem with the mercenary port recruitment system it's that cities that do not have coast won't be able to recruit mercenaries... That's why I think a specific building for their recruitment it's more appropriate.

[Mausolos of Caria]

But it would be a nice way to restrict the access to better mercenaries, wouldn't it? The Seleucids have enough territory for AOR recruitment anyway, while Carthage, the Ptolemies, Syracuse, Macedon and most Greeks have a lot of coastal settlements.