Author Topic: Discussion: New Faction Units  (Read 59009 times)

Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2014, 12:15:35 AM »
You called me? Here I am! First of all, Antigonid Macedon will be a very big talking point when we come to the distribution of regions and how we handle the situation we have in 280 BC (since in RTR VII it is depicted realistically, which is too hard for the AI, but great fun for the human player).

As for their roster... the forces of Antigonos Gonatas in 280 BC should still be very much alike to the army of Alexander the Great. While the veterans from the campaigns in the East themselves had long retired or died, units and style of equipment had not really changed yet. Towards the end of the 3rd century, the Macedonian army, similar to their Ptolemaic and Seleucid counterparts, would deploy less and less cavalry, and further enlarge the size of the phalanx spears, but this ''atrophy'' had not happened yet at the beginning of the century. So Gonatas' army relied heavily on a combination of the Phalangites (Pezhetairoi) and Heavy Cavalry (Thessalian cavalry and of course the ,,Earth Shakers'', the Hetairoi).
These were supported by various light troops, peltasts, archers and slingers, among them the feared Agrianian peltasts, who were experts to fight on rough terrain and were often despatched as a flying column, and also light cavalry (Thracian cavalry or Greek javelin cavalry, Sarissa cavalry). Between the two parts of the army fought the hypaspists, elite hoplites who could be used more flexibly than the Phalanx pikemen. Their Greek subjects would obviously still fought in the old hoplite style, accompanied by peltasts.

So far, so good. There are a few things I might have to research (if there aren't already other people here, who know the answers). That would be:

1. Hypaspists- some mods also have hypaspists in phalanx formations with long pikes. That might have happened later on (as decribed above), but obviously it destroys the actual the actual idea of the hypaspists, so I'm not sure if it makes sense to put them in.

2. Psiloi- these might be a lighter version of peltasts, who are featured in some mods. Peltasts were usually very light, too, though, so I'd have to find out what are the exact differences.

There are probably more units we could implement, I'll do some reading.
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ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2014, 12:16:23 AM »
Yup, I remember posting that. Ours is pretty much the same, just without the Camillans.
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ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2014, 08:36:36 PM »
I didn't see your post until just now Mausalos!

Skirmishers are Psiloi, Psiloi are skirmishers :) they are the current Peltasts that we have now.

As for the Hypaspists they will be the elite hoplite. As for the sword hypaspists, I have included them based off my reading from Duncan Head.

Could you please help out with the following units?
Katakoi
Aspidophoroi
Lonchophoroi

Also Seleucid Roster is up
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Bercor

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2014, 08:57:34 PM »
I've never seen any evidence that the Thorakitai Argyraspides are more than an fantasy unit, especially with that mail mask... Maybe Mausolos can prove me wrong.

ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2014, 09:15:19 PM »
I agree. The diadochi factions need to be done all at once because they are all so similar. I'll have Egypt up soon and then we will focus on those three before moving on to another.
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b257

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #50 on: February 18, 2014, 04:41:00 AM »
Hey ahowl, when this mod goes public on twc will it be using the current reskinned vanilla roster or newer units? if so what are the possibilities of introducing a small AOR using the Mercenaries available in game?

ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2014, 05:16:05 AM »
The mod will be going public in a few days. In the next release we will include a lot of new units and we can make a general AOR for it.

EDIT:
Posted the Ptolemaic Roster. After looking through all three of their rosters, I can only point out a select handful of troops that were used exclusively by one of the three factions. Most of the units, especially the basic ones should be available to all three Diadochi Factions. For example, Macedon has greek levies, the Seleucids have eastern levies, and the Ptolemies have egyptian levies. Well if you are Macedon and conquer Egypt, shouldn't you have access to Machimoi troops? I believe so.
Egypt already has a few Greek/Hellenic territories, so shouldn't they have access to Levy Hoplites and Deuteroi as well as the greek variant of skirmishers?

A Hellenic/Diadochi AOR will need be made exclusively for the next BETA release.

Mausalos, you have a lot of work cut out for you. Please go through each of the Diadochi rosters and tell us who should we have in or out for each of the factions. There are a lot of units there, but if a unit does not have a significant history or is just mythical I do not want it in! :)

We will not move forward until the Diadochi Faction rosters are complete and agreed upon! Let the discussion begin!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 06:17:07 AM by ahowl11 »
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Bercor

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2014, 10:14:56 PM »
In regards to the elephants, shouldn't the Seleucids have Syrian war elephants? Right now they have two units of imported Indian war elephants, but, historically, they created some of their own elephants in Syria and exported them to whom was able to pay for them. Granted that the Indian and Syrian elephants were very similar, but I feel they also shoud be represented ingame. What I would suggest is that the normal towered elephants remain the Indian war elephants and the cataphract elephants change to Syrian armoured elephants.
The Ptolemies should have the same elephants as Carthage, a smaller North African elephant and an imported Indian war elephant. Ideally, I don't know if this is possible, the Indian war elephant should be more costly to Carthago than to the Ptolemies, to represent the fact that the Ptolemies could buy them in the source, indian rajas, and Carthago had to buy them through intermediaries, Ptolemies or Seleucids.

Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2014, 12:38:25 AM »
Ooft, that's what you get for missing a few days  ;D My exam went well today, though, so I should have a bit more time now.

Now on the topic, at first I'll answer your questions, ahowl, and then Bercor's:

Katakoi- do you mean Katoikoi? A similar term as Metoikoi (metics), which usually described foreign residents in a Greek polis (e.g. Athenian traders living in Corinth), but during Hellenism it was assigned to Greek/Macedonian military settlers in the East, often in cleruchies (citizen colonies), which were used to control the local population. Katoikoi as a unit would probably be phalanx pikemen? To be honest I don't really see why they should be different from Pezhetairoi. Just looked at your roster and saw you already got Kleruchoi pikemen, Kleruchoi and Katoikoi might had have a different tax status, but I don't really see the differences between Pezhetairoi, Kleruchoi and Katoikoi pikemen.

(Ptolemies) However, there's a book about the katoikoi hippeis , a rare instance of cavalry recruited from the cleruchs. Apparently they were also mixed with Egyptians later on. So, get this, KATOIKOI are the richer part of the KLERUCHOI, but so far historians/archaelogists etc. have only proven this for Egypt. So we could give them the Katoikoi cavalry. In one book about the Seleucid army the author describes the Katoikoi as phalangites as Magnesia, but I'm still not sure how we would differentiate them from the normal Pezhetairoi (the difference was probably rather social than military).

Aspidophoroi- what kind of units are they supposed to be? I saw that EB and another mod have them as pikemen with Aspis shields and skirmisher companion cavalry (Hetairoi Aspidophoroi). The name just means Apis bearers, but I've never heard about them apart from mods for RTW and google also only finds results from mods. Our uni library search doesn't know them either so I can't say anything else here.

Lonchophoroi- Ah, I remember seeing those on RTR 6 and thinking that the name is funny. What are they supposed to be? The names seems to mean something like javelinmen

Thorakitai Argyraspides - there seems to be no final conclusion if they existed or not. They are obscure and if they existed, not more than 1000 may exer have existed so we might leave them out altogether

Elephants: Yeah, agreed, even Rome II added the Syrian elephants (among a number of silly wardogs) so we also need them ;)

On to the rosters in general:

SELEUCID EMPIRE:

Slingers- Yes
Skirmishers (Psiloi(Peltasts)- Yes
Archers- Yes
Gastaphretes- Crossbows? We could also use the English name, although they were very rare so that might speak for a Greek name, not sure. AND the Seleucids almost never used them, only in the Greek world itself did they appear sometimes (AOR in Greece then or scrap)

Levy hoplites- can't we just call them hoplites or Greek hoplites or so? This always annoyed me since hoplites are by definition levies. Sure, not short-term levies, but they are militia troops in all cases but Sparta and Thebes
Pantodopoi- what are these?
Pezhetairoi- Yes
Chalkaspides- Yes
Chrysaspides- Yes
Argyraspides- Yes. Actually I think the Argyraspides ARE the hypaspists with pikes. Often recruited from settlers and always at a strength of about 10 000. They are also called peltasts sometimes (also see below), but only because the Phalanx shield was often also called pelte
Kleruchoi *AOR Syria- Yes (see above)
Allied Phalangites- Yes. They were called: Hypaithroi (mercenary phalangites deployed by the satraps of Sardes and Persia are named as that by Polybios)

Hypaspists- Yes. They should definitely be elite foot troops and we don't need a phalanx version, that would be the Argyraspides
There were also the ''Agema of the hypaspists'', elite hypaspists, a very small corps of foot bodyguards. I finally understood everything now:
The Agema (only Macedon), part of the hypaspists > hypaspists - part of the Argyraspides. All taken together they formed the Seleucid infantry guard

AGEMA (NEW)- However, the Seleucids HAD an unit called Agema, 1000 elite horsemen formed of oriental riders, similar to the Hetairoi, but of a different social status
Thureophoroi- Yes
Thorakitai- Yes
Thorakitai Argyraspides- No, see above
Machairophoroi- No, this is only the name given to the ''elite'' part of the native Egyptian troops, who were also used as police forces

Hippakontistai *AOR Greece- Yes I guess
Prodromoi- Yes
Lonchophoroi?- see above
Xystophoroi (NEW)- standard spear cavalry with lighter armour than the companions
Hetairoi- Yes
Hellenic Cataphracts- Yes

Indian War Elephants- see above for elephants
Armoured Indian War Elephants
NEW Scythed Chariots- were definitely used by the Seleucids, more than every other nation at the time probably (apart from Celtic chariots, but they are fundamentally different)
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Bercor

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2014, 12:46:08 AM »
I'm against the crossbowman. They were very rare, you'd never find an entire unit of them, and I've never seen any mention of them in any battle.

Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2014, 01:02:36 AM »
ANTIGONID MACEDON

Slingers *Only in Greece - Yes, but why only in Greece?
Skirmishers *Only in Greece- Yes, same question lol Only as Psiloi then?
Archers *Only in Greece- yes, same
Peltasts (Similar to Thureophoroi) *Only in Greece- Yes (There should be two units, peltasts AND Thureophoroi, right?)
Kestros Slingers- the Kestros was only invented during the late 3rd century, mind you. But it was definitely a Macedonian speciality, who used the weapo against the Romans in the 2nd century. Apparently some Greek states (Aitolian League, Epiros?) already used them before
Gastraphetes- Again, they were only used rarely

Levy Hoplites *Only in Greece- Yes
Deuteroi *Only in Greece- How would that unit look? Again, it's primarily a social difference
Pezhetairoi- Yes
Asthetairoi *Only in Macedon- Yes to both. They are described as ''more like the Hypaspists'', the most flexible of all phalangites. It seems doubtful if game mechanics could reflect that
Chalkispides- Yes
Leukaspides- Yes, Leukaspides were not that often used (the Seleucids also used them once, but only under Antiochos IV Epiphanes) since they were ornamented. Maybe they could give a morale boost, but would be extremely expensive, despite being weaker than the Asthetairoi
Katoikoi *Only in Illyria or Thrace?- If at all, they would be settlers in Illyria or Thrace
Bottian Phalangites *Only Western Macedon- is there a need for a different unit?
Amphipolitan Phalangites *Only Eastern Macedon- see above
Allied Phalangites * Only in Greece- Yes (Not sure if we could also call them Hypaithroi since that term was only attributed to the Seleucid mercenary/allied phalangites)

Hypaspists- Yes
Sword Hypaspists- Does that mean in differences to phalangites or to hoplites?

Hippakontistai *Only in Greece- Yeah
Prodromoi- Yeah
Sarissophoroi- Yeah
Xystophoroi *Only in Greece- Yeah (Why did you leave them out for the Seleucids then if you would put them for Macedon?  :P )
Hetairoi- Yes

Aspidophoroi? - See above
Lonchophoroi?- See above

One general thing on the Pezhetairoi... the word describes Hellenistic Pikemen in general. For example, the Macedonian pikemen were made up of Chalkaspides (bronze shields) and Leukaspides (white shields), supported by the Asthetairoi as an elite contingent. So the Chalkaspides are Pezhetairoi, like the Hypaspists are Argyraspides.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 01:30:05 AM by Mausolos of Caria »
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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2014, 01:28:00 AM »
PTOLEMAIC EGYPT

Slingers *AOR Egypt- Yes
Skirmishers *AOR Egypt- Yes
Machimoi Archers *AOR Egypt- Yes
Peltasts- Yes. The Ptolemaic peltastai were inspired by Thracian troops and had hats instead of helmets (like Cretan archers. I'm sure this will look cool :D )
NEW: Cretan archers (maybe AOR)
Galatian Warriors (Celtic Swordsmen)
Thracian Warriors (probably in their typical equipment)
Carian Warriors (axemen like on Rome II or javelinmen, surely light infantry that could also pack a punch in melee ;))
Rhodian slingers

While Carians had a long tradition of serving and living in Egypt, the others were mistrophoroi (mercenaries), but they were regularly used, like Carthage did, so we might also give them Mercenary barracks or make them cheaper and recruitable in the Nile Delta. Their sons often used to live in Egypt and thus they stayed, so I'd prefer the first option

Machimoi Phalangites *AOR Egypt- Yes
Kleruchoi Phalangites- Again, the Kleruchoi are Pezhetairoi
Pezhetairoi- Socially they are devided into Kleruchoi/Katoikoi (Greek settlers), Machimoi (Usually Egyptians, but also Jews or poor Greeks) and Stratiotai (settlers without a kleros, that means, without land). So if we want a weaker unit of the Kleruchoi, we could call them Stratiotai
Ptolemaic Elite Phalangites-

Machimoi Infantry *AOR Egypt- Yes
Epilektoi (NEW)- Elite Machimoi Infantry
Thureophoroi- Yes
Thorakitai- Yes, I think. But it should be noted that books on the Ptolemaic and Seleucid armies (and the Macedonian army, even though they mainly describe the very early one under Alexander and his generals) never even mention the term Thorakitai. Yes, there is proof for Roman influences, but it has often been exaggerated, especially for the Ptolemies. So while Thorakitai in the Antigonid and Seleucid armies could have existed, they seem doubtful for the Ptolemies, since they never fought against the Romans themselves.
Machairophoroi- Yes, Egyptian and Semitic guard and police troops. The name implies that they bear swords, and there seems to have been a little cavalry unit of them
Basilikon Agema- Yes, 3000 men

Hippakontistai *AOR Egypt- Yes
Machimoi Cavalry *AOR Egypt- Yes
Prodromoi- Yes
Hetairoi- Yes
Machairophoroi cavalry- see above, sword cavalry
Xystophoroi- again, everyone used them, they were the most common infantry

Elephants?- See above
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Bercor

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2014, 01:32:24 AM »
Carian Warriors (axemen like on Rome II or javelinmen, surely light infantry that could also pack a punch in melee ;))

I sense some bias in the air.

Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2014, 01:36:53 AM »
Phew, okay, there you go. As I said we could scrap the Gastraphetes, but Macedon and other Greeks (The Aitolian League mainly since they had a focus on skirmishers) might get them. They are unrealistic for the two Eastern kingdoms, though.

Well, that took me a few hours and I hope that will have been a big step. @ahowl I'm still trying to get cold_mac and Great Montrose on here since I will be unable to say a lot on Celtic or German rosters. I know they probably didn't reply to your PM but I'm still working on that front, to be sure ;)

@ Carians Oh come on  ;D It's just a fact that Caria was pisspoor and so it was common since about 600 BC that Carians would join the Egyptian army and make their fortune there. Due to the rough terrain at home they were excellent mountain warriors, and were both effective as skirmishers and as melee troops. However, they are of course light infantry and couldn't beat heavy cavalry. But they could well harass them and beat other light troops in melee with their axes. I'm not sure if there ever was an unit of axemen with javelins or something like that before, but that's the most likely equipment  ;)
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Bercor

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Re: Discussion: New Faction Units
« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2014, 01:43:31 AM »
Oh come on  ;D It's just a fact that Caria was pisspoor and so it was common since about 600 BC that Carians would join the Egyptian army and make their fortune there. Due to the rough terrain at home they were excellent mountain warriors, and were both effective as skirmishers and as melee troops. However, they are of course light infantry and couldn't beat heavy cavalry. But they could well harass them and beat other light troops in melee with their axes. I'm not sure if there ever was an unit of axemen with javelins or something like that before, but that's the most likely equipment  ;)

Uhm, I suppose you want us to represent them like this:
?