Discussion: New Faction Units

[Bercor]

I was wondering, is there any record of the using of phalanx inside a city? I guess probably not, since these streets were pretty narrow and the battle at that time were mainly fought in the walls, but maybe Mausolos can contradict me...

[ahowl11]

1. Keravnos was the RS2 historian and he hasn't been active since 2009. I could ask the EB members but I rather just leave them out. These factions are already getting a lot of cavalry. Maybe we could add them in later once we have better evidence.

2. Sounds good to me

[Mausolos of Caria]

Okay then, I'll keep my eyes open since I suppose it will still be some months before our final release anyway. As for your question, Bercor, I've never heard of it and quickly screened Plutarchs and Alexander Demandt's biographies of Alexander the Great. No mentioning of that, defenders are always on the walls and are taken out on them and not on the plaza and streets. The tactic to deploys phalanxes on streets is just a human player idea on RTW, while it works great we should be aware of the fact that, as you said, real streets might have been too narrow and the big streets would have lanes on their sides through which one could send assault infantry to break up the defender's phalanx.

Another idea: Ptolemies and Seleucids should also have access to ordinary Greek hoplites, as AOR troops in the Aegean and Western Asia Minor.

[Bercor]

Okay then, I'll keep my eyes open since I suppose it will still be some months before our final release anyway. As for your question, Bercor, I've never heard of it and quickly screened Plutarchs and Alexander Demandt's biographies of Alexander the Great. No mentioning of that, defenders are always on the walls and are taken out on them and not on the plaza and streets. The tactic to deploys phalanxes on streets is just a human player idea on RTW, while it works great we should be aware of the fact that, as you said, real streets might have been too narrow and the big streets would have lanes on their sides through which one could send assault infantry to break up the defender's phalanx.

Another idea: Ptolemies and Seleucids should also have access to ordinary Greek hoplites, as AOR troops in the Aegean and Western Asia Minor.

Yeah, it's a pretty cheap trick, since the AI doesn't know to do the same.

[ahowl11]

I wonder if there is a way to edit settlement plans to make streets narrower and less defensible? For me I always put all of my troops at the center of a city. Makes it easier to defend because they will never route!

Rosters are complete for the Diadochi. Check the OP for any mistakes.

Now on to the Hellenic Kingdoms: I'll post the draft right here because it shouldn't take long. Remember that Epirus, Bactria, Pergamum and Cyrene are going to be represented by this faction. Mausolos, this is where real digging begins!

Missile Troops
Skirmishers
Slingers
Archers
Peltasts

Phalangites
Deuteroi/Pantodopoi/Machimoi
Kleruchoi
Tarentine Leukaspides
Agema Phalangites

Infantry
Hoplites
Thureophoroi
Thorakitai
Hypaspists
Chaeonian Agema
Bactrian Agema

Cavalry
Hippakontistai
Prodromoi
Xystophoroi
Hetairoi
Molossian Cavalry?
Bactrian Cataphracts

Other
Indian Elephants
African Elephants
Syrian Elephants

I need to do a little research myself!

[Bercor]

I think the bactrian troops should only be recruitable in bactria region, epirote troops in epirus, etc. Otherwise, we'll have stupid scenarios like Bactrian Cataphracts in Macedonia and stuuf like that.

[ahowl11]

Of course, It would be RTF (Rome Total Fantasy) if we allowed that

[Mausolos of Caria]

Still need to add Katoikoi cavalry  The rest looks fine.

I think the bactrian troops should only be recruitable in bactria region, epirote troops in epirus, etc. Otherwise, we'll have stupid scenarios like Bactrian Cataphracts in Macedonia and stuuf like that.

Oh yes, indeed, but I guess ahowl already figured that himself. Edit: He already saw that

The roster looks good so far, and yes Epiros should have an Agema phalanx. Epiros should get Indian elephants somehow, but I saw that they are recruitable as mercenaries in Epiros right now, which would also be good enough. Bactria should probably also get access to elephants, being close to India.
And yeah Bactria should have cataphracts, as Bercor just mentioned.

Pergamon also used quite a lot of mercenaries, especially Greeks (like Cretan archers) and Galatian swordsmen as well as cavalry, I believe.

Didn't Bercor also upload a book about the Bactrian army here? Did any of you two read it?

[Bercor]

Oh yes, indeed, but I guess ahowl already figured that himself. Edit: He already saw that

The roster looks good so far, and yes Epiros should have an Agema phalanx. Epiros should get Indian elephants somehow, but I saw that they are recruitable as mercenaries in Epiros right now, which would also be good enough. Bactria should probably also get access to elephants, being close to India.
And yeah Bactria should have cataphracts, as Bercor just mentioned.

Didn't Bercor also upload a book about the Bactrian army here? Did any of you two read it?

First question, I did. Second question, I did not.

Epirus should have Syrian/Indian elephants the same way as Carthago. Bactria should also get them, but because they're around the corner from India.

[ahowl11]

I'll add Cataphracts. If there is anything specific to certain kingdoms please tell me. I'd like to reflect the uniqueness as best as I can! I can understand that Cyrene would be tough, but maybe Pergamum had something? Also, Molossian Cavalry for Epirus? Maybe rename them to Molossian Nobles?

[Bercor]

I'll add Cataphracts. If there is anything specific to certain kingdoms please tell me. I'd like to reflect the uniqueness as best as I can! I can understand that Cyrene would be tough, but maybe Pergamum had something? Also, Molossian Cavalry for Epirus? Maybe rename them to Molossian Nobles?

Never heard of Molossian cavalry. They probably should get a Companions look-alike elite heavy cavalry.

[Mausolos of Caria]

Okay Bercor, have a look at your own source then!  Because I have no effin idea about the Bactrian army.

Kyrene and Pergamon are hard... I saw that other mods like Extended Realism also went guessing about them. As I said, they should get Galatian mercenaries, maybe only after the battle of the Kaikos sources in 234 BC. I will try to get a description of the battle and look if it says anything about the Pergamene army composition.

Well the Molossians were Pyrrhos' own ''tribe'' among the epirotes. Still, Epirotes were Greek and Greek noble cavalry are the hippeis. I will check if they have them on RTR VII, but maybe we could just call them Molossian hippeis and make them a bit stronger than city state hippeis, since Epiros was surely more able in cavalry operations than the (Southern) poleis.

[Mausolos of Caria]

Alright, I've checked both. First, Livy and Polybius hardly mention anything about the Kaikos battle but the terrible, ferocious nature of the Galatians and that even the Seleucids feared them, and that the kind and bright big daddy Attalos defeated them at the Kaikos springs, near Pergamon and in Caria. No word on the troops he used, though, and this is the only bigger battle where Pergamon fought on its own. At the battle of Magnesia, they mention ''Pergamene cavalry'' and hoplites/phalangites.

And RTR VII gives Epiros the normal Hippeis. As I said they should maybe get stronger hippeis than the common Greeks. Also, RTR VII has Paionian cavalry for Macedon and Epiros. I would support adding them to the Macedonian roster, not so for the Epirotes, though.

[Bercor]

Wasn't Thessalian Cavalry the big thing at that time, though? Shouldn't Epirus get acess to them, aswell as Macedon?

[Mausolos of Caria]

Oh I thought we had already included them in the Macedonian roster... yes they should definitely have them, both factions.