Author Topic: Discussion: Economy/Government/Population Growth  (Read 13026 times)

Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: Economy/Government/Population Growth
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2014, 11:13:50 PM »
I got a renowned German historical atlas recently for signing up on the Scientific Book society WBG (it's worth 60 €, but I got it for free) and it also has an economical map of the Eastern Mediterrenean and Near East in the 3rd century BC. Maybe if we play to implement different resources like the newer TW games or RTR VII we could need that. Perhaps a similar map can also be found for the rest of the map.
It shows the distribution of natural resources, trade centres, important trade routes and manufacturing centres.
''I found a city of bricks and left a city of marble''

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ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: Economy/Government/Population Growth
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2014, 11:29:28 PM »
Seems like it would be a great resource! I wish I had better ideas for the economy. I am more geared towards military and culture.
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Alavaria

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Re: Discussion: Economy/Government/Population Growth
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2014, 03:45:15 AM »
Yeah, we could rescale costs up: 3x

And then add a bonus of: +100% Income tax bonus to settlements to start.
Your "capital" can be given a larger bonus. Very important for some factions, if they are AI held, it can help small factions).

Then switch buildings to give +% Income tax bonus for the economic ones, and the happiness/mulitary buildings will give you -%income tax bonus.

You can use mines (for gold/silver at least) but a more general mine building might as well just give you +% income tax bonus. I would target a payoff time of maybe 15-20 turns for the early structures, but longer for the more expensive ones. +% tax bonus may be stronger in settlements with more population; at the same time, having a penalty hurts more, and you need more happiness buildings for a larger settlement  :balrog:

Trait/Ancillary wise, having governors gain traits/ancillaries that increase tax income would be a nice reason to encourage governors. Note that if these are powerful, nerfing the capital bonus will be necessary.

Farming Levels, Public Health are annoying bonuses, FYI. Probably change them for straight happiness/population growth bonuses. You can have population control buildings that work on that. Law is a relatively nice bonus (reduces corruption) so it should have higher costs if you want them.

As a bonus, if the bonuses are mostly Happiness instead of Health/Law, you can pretty safely use -Happiness on buildings you want to be extra painful...


-----
You can't repurpose the mining/farming trees (and are restricted by # of building trees you can have) so they make natural "mining resource" and "farming the resource" buildings.  ;D

The market tree could be used for "tradeable resource" bonuses like furs etc etc.

You could also make available "industry" building trees for industries you like, dependent on having the resource and appropriate extraction built. Eg: Gold/silver smiths, which require some level of mines in settlement with gold/silver. Or wineries, requiring farms to some level.

Note that mining tree buildings CAN use tax income bonus, but can only give mining income bonus for gold/silver (you can make it buildable everywhere I think).
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 04:05:37 AM by Alavaria »

The Sloth

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Re: Discussion: Economy/Government/Population Growth
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2014, 08:07:57 PM »
Since buildings are my second area of interest after traits & ancillaries, here are some things that I haven't seen mentioned yet:

1) The temples need to be streamlined, so that all factions use the same temple types. That will allow the AI to upgrade the temples it captures, and free valuable building trees for future use.

2) One idea I had to prevent all cities being exact clones of eachother is to increase construction times of buildings depending on the settlement. Important cities of the ancient world would then be able to build much faster, becoming more easily distinguishable from "ordinary" settlements. And even the ordinary ones could have different construction speeds and costs, and start out more or less developed. Ask Aradan from Fourth Age: Total War for more info about this, I don't know of any other mod that uses this mechanic.
Oh, and it would also mean that the mausoleum of Hallikarnassos needs to be scrapped. But the seven wonders as they are now aren't exactly in line with "realism" anyway.

3) Are there plans to include the BI buildings for barbarians? This is no suggestion, just a question, because these buildings suck ass on so many levels.

ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: Economy/Government/Population Growth
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2014, 08:39:24 PM »
1. Seems like a good idea to me.
2. Interesting, it might be worth a shot
3. Well a few buildings yes but not all

We probably will scrap the wonders, but it would be cool to still have them on the map.
For this mod the only thing that I care is that we don't add hundreds of thousands of buildings to the mod like RS2 and EB. Too much waters down the game and for me makes it extremely boring. I'd rather utilize the current building tree and maybe add a few necessary buildings.
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The Sloth

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Re: Discussion: Economy/Government/Population Growth
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2014, 02:29:12 PM »
How about I use the weekend to get the temple issue sorted? I could make it so that every faction can build exactly four temples, and can upgrade every temple it captures. I'd also use that opportunity to tweak some bonuses.

Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: Economy/Government/Population Growth
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2014, 03:28:47 PM »
But they would still bear the names of different gods and goddesses?
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Bercor

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Re: Discussion: Economy/Government/Population Growth
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2014, 03:35:11 PM »
No, I guess that would not be possible. It would just be some generic temple for all factions called:"War temple" or "Economic temple". Personally, I know that it helps the AI, but I don't like it. Furthermore, it's not like the AI has any money problem if we don't want it to...
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 03:45:12 PM by Bercor »

Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: Economy/Government/Population Growth
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2014, 03:40:53 PM »
Mmh I gotta agree with Bercor here if that's the case, I'm afraid. How would these buildings look? A mixture of Gallo- Germanic, Phoenician and Graeco- Roman architecture?
''I found a city of bricks and left a city of marble''

Augustus

The Sloth

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Re: Discussion: Economy/Government/Population Growth
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2014, 07:25:17 PM »
No, I guess that would not be possible. It would just be some generic temple for all factions called:"War temple" or "Economic temple".

Nope, building descriptions (and names) can be fully customized for every faction. I don't know if I can include them all over one weekend, so we might end up with some "Temple of War/Law/Fertility/Whatever" placeholders for a while, but my lineup for now looks like this:

Rome: Jupiter - Mars - Merkur - Venus

Greeks: Zeus - Ares - Hermes - Aphrodite

Ptolemies: Serapis - Herakles - Ptah - Isis

Celts: Taranis - Toutatis - Lugus - Damona

Iberians: Ataecina - the Lares - Bandua - Endovellicus

Germans: Tyr - Woden - Frigg - Freya

Dacia: Zalmoxis - Kotys - Bendis - Derzelas

Carthage: Baal-Hammon - Tanit - Baal-Melqart - Eshmun

Numidia: the Kings - Gurzil - T'Neith - Heaven and Earth

Armenia: Hayk - Vahagn - Anahit - Aramazd

Parthia: Ahura Mazda - Verethragna - the Six Spirits - Mithra

Illyria: Ou - Korrotos - the Twin Snakes - Genesus

Sarmatia: Ma - Agin - Goitosir - Tara

Bercor

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Re: Discussion: Economy/Government/Population Growth
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2014, 07:27:18 PM »
Oh, excellent. ;D
In that case go ahead.

ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: Economy/Government/Population Growth
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2014, 08:14:48 PM »
Yes, you may proceed with the temples :)
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The Sloth

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Re: Discussion: Economy/Government/Population Growth
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2014, 08:01:12 PM »
Done. Finally.

Now how exactly do I give you those files? They're too large for attachments, and it seems I can't send them per E-mail either.

Other than that, there are some other minor changes:

- removed all units recruited from temples (Arcani, gladiators etc.) with the exception of Fanatics for Gaul and the Sacred Band for Carthage
- Decere and Corvus Quinquireme are now recruitable from Roman dockyards
- nerfed overall temple bonuses

ahowl11

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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: Economy/Government/Population Growth
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2014, 01:20:21 PM »
Economy- we should make some considerations here. Those of you who have played RTR VII will know that it uses a different financial scale than most mods. On Vanilla you pay like 600 for your legionaries (and 250 upkeep), your city has a wealthiness of 2500 and a port costs 1500 denarii. On RTR VII, both income and prices are much higher to allow for more flexibilty and expansive details. For example, now you pay something like 9000 for a legionary cohort, 1500 upkeep, and your average city gives 5000 income (obviously overall it is harder and you get less money). Now we could even make this more realistic the following way:

Have, for examle, at the start of the game, the richest and the poorest city compared. Let's say Alexandria is the richest settlement and Lupfurdum or something in Germania the poorest. It would be like this (if the towns were in):

Vanilla: Lupfurdum: 100 income, Alexandria: 2800 income
RTR VII: Lupfurdum: 1000 income, Alexandria 18 000 income

Now to make the differences even more clear, we could do something like this:

RTR Project: Lupfurdum: 50 income, Alexandria 10 000 income

To achieve balance we would adjust the unit prices:

German warband- 100 denarii
Ptolemaic Hypaspists- 15 000 denarii

This would also be realistic, since the German warband would barely need more than leggings, trousers and a wooden spear and their military training is their every-day life. Meanwhile, the Hypaspists are handpicked from the young Macedonian elite, have received a decent education and years of military training, not to mention their expansive equipment and the need to produce enough replacement weapons and armour for such a professional unit.

What does this mean: It means, most of all, that the Barbarians would make a huge jump forward in their economy if they capture a ''civilized'' town, while conquering Britannia or Germania for a faction like Rome is, like in history, unattractive. Of course one should be able to alter the income, especially by building mines also in the Barbarian areas. Furthermore the regions should grow richer the nearer they are to the Mediterrenean core regions- that way there wouldn't be such a big shock immeditaly if the Illyrians or Celts capture Greek cities. Just an example off my head like it could look (keep in mind I always mean at the start of the campaign):

Lupfurdum: 50 income
Lugdunum: 200 income
Noreia (mines): 500 income
Seuthopolis (Thrace): 1000 income
Thermon (Aitolia): 2500 income
Athens: 5000 income
Alexandria: 10 000 income

What this would need more than anything else would be extensive testing. But maybe it goes to far anyway, just tell me what you think.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 03:22:42 PM by Mausolos of Caria »
''I found a city of bricks and left a city of marble''

Augustus