Poll

How should we reform the Camillans to Polybians?

Ditch the Camillans and only have a Polybian Roster
0 (0%)
Have all Camillan units reformed to Polybian units at a set time (marian_reform) Possible dates: 240, 220, 211
1 (11.1%)
 Have individual units reform one at a time.. Principes at 275, Hastati/EquitesTriarii at 220, Velites at 211 (other variations available)
1 (11.1%)
Start off with Late Camillan Units instead (Italian Shields/Short Swords) and reform gradually to Polybians (Hastati etc at 220, Velites at 211)
7 (77.8%)
 Go ahead and make the new Shields/swords and have 3 sets of Hastati/Principes/Triarii, limiting our DMB and EDU slots
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: April 25, 2014, 08:39:58 AM

Author Topic: Discussion: Camillan to Polybian Unit Reforms  (Read 6470 times)

ahowl11

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Discussion: Camillan to Polybian Unit Reforms
« on: April 24, 2014, 01:26:07 AM »
After that huge discussion on IRC we needed to write everything down. THIS IS NOW A POLL. READ THROUGH OP AND VOTE ONCE YOU HAVE REACHED A DECISION GIVE EXPLANATION OF VOTE AT BOTTOM
What we Currently Have
Start Date 280 BC

Camillan Roster
Accensi - Poor Slinger Unit
Leves - Skirmisher Unit
Rorarii - Skirmisher/Spear Unit
Hastati - No armour, scutum, spear, javelins
Principes - Heart Protector, scutum, spear, javelins
Triarii - Cuirass, hoplon, spear
Equites - spear, shield
Equites Consulares

Allies:
Various troop types based off AOR
Pedites Extraordinarii
Extraordinarii Cavalry

Polybian Roster
Proletarii - Garrison Spear Unit
Velites - Skirmishers
Hastati - Heart Protector, Scutum, Pilae, greave on shield leg
Principes - Heart protector, shoulder guards, scutum, pilae, greave on shield leg
Triarii - Bronze cuirass, scutum, spear, greaves on both legs
Equites - heart protector, spear, shield
Equites Consulares

Allies:
Italian Velites
Italian Hastati
Italian Principes
Italian Equites
Pedites Extraordinarii
Extraordinarii Cavalry

From bucellarii:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

From Annunak (please read article)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Q&A between bucellarii and me:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Mausolos' Findings:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

What we learned/Summary:
-Principes Used Spears in Pyrrhic Wars but ditched them afterwords
-Mail was extremely rare and only worn by wealthier citizens (impossible to represent with engine)
-Hastati, Triarii, and Principes all adapted Italian Longshield and Etruscan/Greek Short swords around 275 BC
-This equipment was used up until 220 BC or so when Scutum/gladius were Introduced by Scipios after fighting Iberian troops
-Velites appeared in 211, replacing Rorarii, Leves, and Accensi

Proposed New Units
Late Camillan Hastati - Sword instead of Spear
Late Camillan Principes - Sword instead of Spear
Late Camillan Triarii - Italian Long shield instead of Hoplon

Putting this in game:
-280 BC, start off with current Camillan Roster
-275 BC, script in Reform after Conquering Southern Italy -Units ditch Spears for Etrurian/Greek swords, Triarii ditches hoplon for Italian Long shield
-220 BC, script in Reform - Scutum/Gladius replace Italian Longshields and Etruruan/Greek Swords; Equites have armour
-211 BC, script in Reform - Velites replace Leves, Rorarii, and Accensi

Issues:
-By doing the above, we would have 3 versions of the Hastati, Principes, and Triarii which would take up 9 slots in the dmb. Keep in mind that the first 3 of these units would only be used for the first 5 years!
-We would need a new shield model for the first set.. Is it worth it, if the player can only play with the first set for only the first few years?
-Too many scripts can really slow down the game, what if the scripts don't work?

Questions
Do we REALLY want 3 different types of Roman Infantry? -ahowl11

Possible Solutions
1) Ditch the Camillans and only have a Polybian Roster
2) Have all Camillan units reformed to Polybian units at a set time (marian_reform) Possible dates: 240, 220, 211
3) Have individual units reform one at a time.. Principes at 275, Hastati/EquitesTriarii at 220, Velites at 211 (other variations available)
4) Start off with Late Camillan Units instead (Italian Shields/Short Swords) and reform gradually to Polybians (Hastati etc at 220, Velites at 211)
5) Go ahead and make the new Shields/swords and have 3 sets of Hastati/Principes/Triarii, limiting our DMB and EDU slots

Vote on what we should do As soon as you read this thread! Then give your reasoning why we should do it.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 08:53:58 AM by ahowl11 »
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b257

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Re: Discussion: Camillan to Polybian Unit Reforms
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2014, 05:59:43 AM »
Hm, seems overly complicated, but thinking about it EB had multiple reforms in its mod why can't we :). I mean they had Camillan, Polybian and marian units in its mod we should be able to do the same, minus the marian units of course.

ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: Camillan to Polybian Unit Reforms
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2014, 08:46:22 AM »
Updated OP. This thread is now a poll!

I voted for the fourth option. Even though it will require some modelling (hopefully there is a model already available, RTR VII?) and skinning, I think it will be good for gameplay as you will experience the Camillan and Polybian armies for good lengths of time, instead of dealing with a very brief early camillan army at the beginning. Also it is historical because the early camillan troops were probably gone by 280 BC or just about to be gone, and it will save us precious DMB and EDU slots.
We can further edit the armour of the camillans and polybians to make them look distinguished from each other as well.

Please vote everyone!
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Mausolos of Caria

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Re: Discussion: Camillan to Polybian Unit Reforms
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2014, 12:39:21 PM »
I always said, even before all the discussions, that the whole Camillan spear units aren't worth it because of the few years they were used. Hell, even in the Pyrrhic wars, descriptions tell us that some Romans already favoured swords over spears, so let's stretch it a bit here- I voted for option 4.
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Bercor

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Re: Discussion: Camillan to Polybian Unit Reforms
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2014, 03:28:14 PM »
The Triarii should have an Italic anatomical cuirass, and not a Greek bronze cuirass.

Ballacraine

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Re: Discussion: Camillan to Polybian Unit Reforms
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2014, 05:09:24 PM »
I went with 4.

If we are ever going to go with 3 eras of Roman troops, I would rather see Post Marian / Imperial.

Balla.  8)

Aaronbaron

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Re: Discussion: Camillan to Polybian Unit Reforms
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2014, 10:22:27 PM »
I also went with 4, due to reasons already stated. It seems like the most logical choice. 





b257

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Re: Discussion: Camillan to Polybian Unit Reforms
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2014, 02:14:03 AM »
I too went with 4, makes sense really and less work.

Jubal

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Re: Discussion: Camillan to Polybian Unit Reforms
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2014, 12:05:22 PM »
This all seems fairly conclusive  :P
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ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: Camillan to Polybian Unit Reforms
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2014, 06:33:35 PM »
Here is a thought. And I wish I would have included it, but it just came to me.
Since there really won't be a lot of difference with how the Hastati/Principes/Triarii look in between reforms, why not have this set up?

Camillan:
Rorarii
Leves
Accensi

Polybian:
Velites

The only change would be the Velites replacing the light units.
It would save, 4 DMB slots..
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Ballacraine

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Re: Discussion: Camillan to Polybian Unit Reforms
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2014, 11:11:57 PM »
Yes, that would make some sense.

I dislike the earlier similar light units anyway, as in real terms there is little to chose between them.

Balla.  8)

Alavaria

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Re: Discussion: Camillan to Polybian Unit Reforms
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2014, 11:40:59 PM »
If only we had some records detailing the five different finely shaded types of random Carthaginian fodder troops...

ahowl11

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Re: Discussion: Camillan to Polybian Unit Reforms
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2014, 12:08:51 AM »
Balla,

I think you misunderstood. Or did I misunderstand your post? lol

We would keep the Rorarii, Leves, and Accensi until 211 and then have them replaced by Velites. But that would be it. The Hastati, Principes, Triarii, and Equites would stay the same through out the course of the game. So it would save us 4 slots.

However if we can find someone who has graphic skills we could use one model for both the camillan hastati/principes and polybian hastati/principes so I guess this decision still has yet to be finalized.

I am afraid to go in one direction, only to have a better option come up later, making us restart. So I'd rather wait.
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bucellarii

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Re: Discussion: Camillan to Polybian Unit Reforms
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2014, 08:51:32 AM »
A few random historical rather than strictly gameplay observations:

Swords

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Scuta

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Light-Armed

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I referred elsewhere to the questionable historicity of the 'Camillan' military reform (s), which the EB Team appears to accept as indisputable fact. Consequently, regardless of which units you finally include in the mod, it is perhaps more accurate to use the less loaded term 'Early' rather than 'Camillan'. Of course, if you wish to include separate leves, rorarii and accensi units, which I wouldn't necessarily recommend, then the term 'Livian' is more apposite.

Regards

buc
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 09:02:06 AM by bucellarii »

Ballacraine

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Re: Discussion: Camillan to Polybian Unit Reforms
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2014, 11:37:40 AM »
Balla,

I think you misunderstood. Or did I misunderstand your post? lol

We would keep the Rorarii, Leves, and Accensi until 211 and then have them replaced by Velites. But that would be it. The Hastati, Principes, Triarii, and Equites would stay the same through out the course of the game. So it would save us 4 slots.

However if we can find someone who has graphic skills we could use one model for both the camillan hastati/principes and polybian hastati/principes so I guess this decision still has yet to be finalized.

I am afraid to go in one direction, only to have a better option come up later, making us restart. So I'd rather wait.

No, I am on beam with what you are saying, it is just that I don't care for the earlier light troops.

I much prefer the velites.

Balla.  8)