Author Topic: Guys I need a hand,  (Read 6102 times)

Jubal

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Re: Guys I need a hand,
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2011, 01:53:45 PM »
I meant more that shooting should have more shots with each one less likely to hit, more referring to standard shooting than machines.

Initiative makes very little difference when firing a weapon; a crossbow will take ages to shoot no matter your fundamental speed, since you have to wind the damn thing up. Bows will always be at least four to six times faster.

Have you ever tried running a horse into a pointy wall? Humans are mad enough bastards to do it; at least they can dodge, can parry, and aren't going so fast. Horses, except for those with stupidly good training, can't do those things and simply won't charge. Boars I suspect wouldn't either - it simply doesn't matter how truculent and badass an animal is, very few of them will actually keep going hell-for-leather at a solid object (in fact, in actual warfare heavy cavalry mostly worked by the enemy starting to run/shift before they got there). From the horse's point of view, orcs are a fluid mass that a horse can run into. Pikes are a solid spiky wall that they won't, they're at heart an anti-cavalry weapon.

I'll get the subsection set up, and give you admin rules so you can bung the sub-boards in and so on.
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Silver Wolf

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Re: Guys I need a hand,
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2011, 05:35:02 PM »
But you still have to think about balance...
Every other type of weapon is going to be useless. I can already imagine a standard Empire army : 3 hordes of spearmen.
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Captain Carthage

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Re: Guys I need a hand,
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2011, 06:12:28 PM »
Well they will have no advantage if rear or flank charged.

For the good Kings I will be working mostly off the new book but I think incantations will be brought back (I refuse to let my Hierophant explode >:( ) however I have a plan to make the Tomb King magic phase a thing to be feared, but at a risk to the TK's player. You'll see.
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Silver Wolf

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Re: Guys I need a hand,
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2011, 07:41:10 PM »
Well they will have no advantage if rear or flank charged.

That's still not enough.
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Jubal

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Re: Guys I need a hand,
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2011, 08:59:37 PM »
I only said pikes should panic charging cavalry, not spears. Spears might be more like fight in 2 ranks, +1 initiative in first round of combat when fighting to the front, no advantage to sides or rear. Weapons need to be factored into troop cost as well.
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Phoenixguard09

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Re: Guys I need a hand,
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2011, 06:00:06 AM »
Jubal I do see what you are getting at with the pikes, but I honestly don't see how that can really be factored in appropriately.  Everything you say is of course correct, just, a little, well, impratical for a slightly abstract game.

With regards to the shooting, I honestly feel that shooting is probably a little too inaccurate but we'll see what other have to say about that.  As far as Initiative goes, I was working off the assumption that Initiative would be a stand in for just natural speed. It does seem to be the way GW looks at it.  In that case, the hand speed of an Elf would be such that he would nock, draw and loose faster than a human.  Hence working into the multiple shots.  But we'd still have to see how that would translate into game terms.

And thanks mate for setting up the board, I'll start shifting stuff over soon.

@ SilverWolf: I think I should really post the changes for weapon types that we are looking at:
Hand Weapon: Acts just as it does now.
Heavy Weapon: (Choppas, Morning Stars, Saurus Macahuitls) +1 Strength on first round of combat. (Same as now, but its an actual category now. Can't be used in conjunction with shield for Parry bonus.)
Great Weapon: +2 Strength, -1 Initiative.
Spear: Fight with additional rank, +1 Initiative.
Pike: Fight with 2 additional ranks, +2 Initiative.
Halberd: Fight with additional rank, +1 Strength for front rank.
Additional Hand Weapon: +1 Attack.
Buckler: +1 Armour Save in Close Combat. (This is the Parry Save.)
Shield: +1 Armour Save, +1 to Parry Save.
Heavy Shield: +1 Armour Save, +2 to Parry Save. (This is experimental for Chaos Warriors. The issue being that this will tip them over to a 1+ Armour Save in Close Combat.)
Tower Shield/Pavise: +2 Armour Save at Range.
Lance: +2 Strength on Charge, +1 Initiative on Charge.
Cavalry Spear: +1 Strength on Charge.

Note: Parry save only works on foot.  On the other hand, unlike 7th, both Great Weapons and Additional Hand Weapons will work the same, mounted or not.  Impractical in real life, sure. Cool as hell, and sort of wanted for game balance (Questing Knights, looking at you) I think so as well.

@ Night Angel: Mate that's good, I also want the Incantations back. As far as the new book goes, myself I'd push for dropping the Necrosphinx. I personally don't like it for several reasons, not the least of which being that it looks sorta weird.  On the other hand the Warsphinx should probably stay cause that's pretty cool.

I think that's everything, please keep this up guys, this is very helpful.

Cheers,
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Gen_Glory

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Re: Guys I need a hand,
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2011, 10:27:37 AM »
whole point of choppas are that only orcs can use them and to them it is effectively a hand weapon, so i don't see sense in them losing the parry bonus
also why wouldn't cavalry spears get bonus Int on the charge?
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Silver Wolf

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Re: Guys I need a hand,
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2011, 11:26:52 AM »
whole point of choppas are that only orcs can use them and to them it is effectively a hand weapon, so i don't see sense in them losing the parry bonus
also why wouldn't cavalry spears get bonus Int on the charge?

Yeah I agree with the first one...
The second one is a bit different. Lances get the initiative bonus because of their length, but cavalry spears are much shorter.
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Gen_Glory

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Re: Guys I need a hand,
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2011, 02:32:49 PM »
but still give significant reach when compared to a sword for example, even on horseback
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Jubal

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Re: Guys I need a hand,
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2011, 04:09:51 PM »
Uhm... for that matter, aren't elves I5? So an elf with a lance could run straight into a human pikeman and hit him first despite the massive 20ft shaft of wood in the way?
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Gen_Glory

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Re: Guys I need a hand,
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2011, 04:13:42 PM »
yeah, lance may have greater reach but unless the target is standing still they are pretty easily dodged, maybe the S bonus is enough for lances
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Silver Wolf

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Re: Guys I need a hand,
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2011, 04:58:22 PM »
Uhm... for that matter, aren't elves I5? So an elf with a lance could run straight into a human pikeman and hit him first despite the massive 20ft shaft of wood in the way?

Lances were often 4 m long (or even longer). Take that and add I5, which means that the elf reacts at the speed of light and you've got the explanation why he gets to strike first. He's just too agile to be hit by a human warrior. He dodges it or whatever.
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Jubal

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Re: Guys I need a hand,
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2011, 05:32:28 PM »
I'll leave you guys to it, I don't think we're going to agree on this one.  :P
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Phoenixguard09

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Re: Guys I need a hand,
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2011, 11:27:00 PM »
Haha no this is good.  See what we have here is an excellent example of what GW has done. The problem is if you mess with the core rules enough, the game starts not to work. Hence why this is a more or less, complete re-write.  But maybe we should take it a little more steadily for now.

Guys, I would like you to list the weak points of 7th. Everything you can think of.  Don't worry if someone has posted it already, I'd like an idea of what is considered a problem by everyone. Go! :D
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Silver Wolf

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Re: Guys I need a hand,
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2011, 10:21:19 AM »
- Weapon bonuses
- Dangerous woods (How do people even build cities? Imagine an empire citizen looking for firewood... Now that's a lethal task.)
- Random charge distances (I can't explain why, but it just doesn't seem right.)
- Magic (Lots of people complain about magic. Some even call the game Magichammer. The truth is that there a few spells which can decimate a whole army. Purple sun, dwellers from bellow and such. Magic kind of ruins the fun for most of the people.)


Oh, 7th edition... Sorry. When I started playing Warhammer 8th edition was already out. Well dammit, that was a year ago. Time flies my friends, time flies.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 10:24:48 AM by Silver Wolf »
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