The Sub-Factions Project

[ahowl11]

Wouldn't the Libyans be different near Carthage than they would near Egypt? Or were they the same people?

[Cincinnatus]

If you want to distinguish and have Libyans of the Carthagenian Empire and Native Libyans, yes they would probably be different.  I would say, not as heavy armor.  No hoplite like units.  Heavy spearmen is a maybe yes or maybe no thing.  I would say probably at least light or medium cavalry or both, spearmen, skirmishers, maybe even heavy spearmen but probably not as good armor or weapons as that of carthage libyans.  And I would probably say, chariots too.  Maybe archers, but maybe not slingers.

[ahowl11]

I thought chariots were fading at this point in history?

so far there will be scythed chariots for the Seleucids and Pontus, maybe Bactria and then there are the British Chariots

[comrade_general]

Libyans with chariots??

[ahowl11]

I do not believe Libyans had chariots in 280 BC. They probably had them back in New Kingdom Egypt

[Cincinnatus]

"The Asbystae adjoin the Gilligammae upon the west. They inhabit the regions above Cyrene, but do not reach to the coast, which belongs to the Cyrenaeans. Four-horse chariots are in more common use among them than among any other Libyans. In most of their customs they ape the manners of the Cyrenaeans. Westward of the Asbystae dwell the Auschisae, who possess the country above Barca, reaching, however, to the sea at the place called Euesperides. In the middle of their territory is the little tribe of the Cabalians, which touches the coast near Tauchira, a city of the Barcaeans. Their customs are like those of the Libyans above Cyrene. "

from
On Libya, from The Histories, c. 430 BCE by Herodotus

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herod-libya1.asp

Here:  A History of Cavalry from the Earliest Times: With Lessons for the Future
By George Taylor Denison

Mentions that Libyans used war chariots at least as late as 559 bc.  Though he says they were used to transport warriors.

The question should not be if they had them.  They very likely did.  The question is, did they use them for war at this time?

[ahowl11]

I don't know, is their any Ptolemaic or Roman records that could maybe clear the issue up?

[Cincinnatus]

Not sure.  It seems however that Greeks copied chariot warfare from the Libyans probably then before the Trojan war.  And Romans in some ways copied the chariot from Libya.  I would say likely if it was used at all still in warfare, it was used to launch javelins from.  That type of use is described.  In previous uses of chariot warfare.

So far the latest use in war I find is about 559, but chariots were still in use in libya by 430 bc as well as in Roman times for races, trade, transport, cargo, and merchants at least.  Warfare is still iffy.  I have seen other mods use Libyan Chariots, but in case they are mercs and called libyan.  It might be more correct to say Cyrenacian as it seems they used chariots the longest of all Libyan peoples.

[ahowl11]

Hmm well I don't know if I should include it or not to be honest

[comrade_general]

I would say not, unless you really need them to fill a recruitment void.

[debux]

Same as above... unless you want chariots to be OP in autoresolve, and you want Cyrenaica to be independent for a long time.

[Agamemnon]

By the way, you're going to have to make rebel units, mercs, and AoR units the same. Why? Because a rebel faction cannot recruit troops even if they are assigned to be able to unless the faction they are the subfaction of can. So if Carthage can't recruit, say, Poeni Infantry, neither can the Libyans, even if in EDB it says they can.

[ahowl11]

Yeah I know how it works. Once I get everything sorted out, I will decide which units will go where.

[Phoenixguard09]

Agreed with above on the Libyan chariots. The people of the British Isles are commonly regarded as the last to use chariots in warfare, and even they used them as transport for the rich warriors rather than shock troops.

I can't think of any resource which definitively states that the chariot saw any substantial use on the battlefield in North Africa during the mod's time frame, and the general opinion is that chariots were pretty much faded out by this stage anyway. So yeah, I'd go against them.

[ahowl11]

It seems like we have a unanimous vote on the issue..