Discussion: Gutting the Vanilla Unit Roster

[ahowl11]

How so?

[Bercor]

How so?

A reskinned ballista with the animations of the scorpion?

[Jubal]

Shouldn't even need to reskin anything, use the scorpion model, anims, etc, but changing the descr_engines entry so it's got the "ballista" class. Can't say if it's doable without testing or how much of a faff it might be but worth thinking about.

[ahowl11]

If you have time, could you try it out? I'm trying to add in the RS2 settlement trees at the moment.

[ahowl11]

Edited list.
Chosen Archers and Gothic Cavalry crossed out, Druids mad ancillary, Onagers crossed out for every faction except Rome.

@Mausolos

Did Germans use axes around this time? What about Night Raiders?
Pontic Chariot Archer, in or out?
Did Rome uses Onagers extensively enough that they should be included in the mod?

[Bercor]

The night raiders should be renamed "Harii Warriors" or something alike:

"As for the Harii, not only are they superior and strength to the other peoples I have just mentioned, but they minister to their savage instincts by trickery and clever timing. They black their shields and dye their bodies, and choose pitch dark nights for their battles. The shadowy, awe-inpsiring appearance of such a ghoulish army inpsires mortal panic; for no enemy can endure a sight so strange and hellish. Defeat in battle starts always with the eyes." Tacitus, Germania

[ahowl11]

That could be something that we add to the Unit description!

[Mausolos of Caria]

Ah thanks for the questions  Not sure about the axes but I sent a message to a friend who knows everything about the Germanic tribes and will reply here once he's informed me.

Pontic chariot archers- I think they used a few chariots but I've never heard of anything other than the hellenistic Scythed chariots like the Seleucid ones, who were simply used to break up or demoralize enemy lines. Apart from the Celtic chariots, who might have been used by the Galatians in Asia Minor, too, but they rarely used archers and even if there was a missile unit (more likely javelin throwers or slingers) on the chariot, it would not have been their primary equipment.

The Onagers have the same problem as stuff like the Harii- we know it for sure for the time of the Principate, but less so for the Republic. There is evidence that they were used, but not too often. Maybe they should only be recruitable at a very late building?

[ahowl11]

Okay, I'll await to see what your friend has to say!
Consider Pontic Chariot Archers gone!
That's what I was thinking, it will be available only post marian reforms and last tier archery/siege building.

Oh another question!

Armoured Elephants. We are leaving them in for the Seleucids and taking them away from Carthage. Should the Seleucids even get them?

[Paramythion]

I would recommend removing the Legionary Cohorts and First Cohorts with the Lorica Segmentata, although I am sure there are people who wold differ with my opinion there. It is rather anachronistic for the time period as there is no evidence for it being used any earlier then the last few years of the game, and even that is dubious.

[Bercor]

I would recommend removing the Legionary Cohorts and First Cohorts with the Lorica Segmentata, although I am sure there are people who wold differ with my opinion there. It is rather anachronistic for the time period as there is no evidence for it being used any earlier then the last few years of the game, and even that is dubious.

Agreed, I hate the overuse of segmentata.

Another thing, I think we should use the british light chariots, with a javalineer instead of an archer, instead of the british heavy chariots. These chariots where not used to swung around knocking men to the ground, but to enable a bigger and faster mobility of the infantry. The best way to be represented in the mod would be as a skirmisher unit.

[ahowl11]

I think we should follow the RTR style right now and just have the Marian Legionaries and get rid of all the others.

So the British Light Chariot's with Javelineers would start in front of the main battle line and act like skirmishers? I like that

[Mausolos of Caria]

Another thing, I think we should use the british light chariots, with a javalineer instead of an archer, instead of the british heavy chariots. These chariots where not used to swung around knocking men to the ground, but to enable a bigger and faster mobility of the infantry. The best way to be represented in the mod would be as a skirmisher unit.

Yep exactly what I said above about Celtic chariots (having the British one in mind, too)!  And @ahowl  yep I think that's how they were used in the battle where Claudius was present as well as at Mons Graupius.

Armoured elephants: I think they were used at Raphia, weren't they? Definitely only give them to the Seleucids, and make them very expensive (on RSII they seemed unstoppable!). And while they should be extremely strong, armour doesn't make them immune against fear of fire! Sorry RS II but when I shoot on them with 4 units of archers, fire arrows on, they should at least get a bit nervous, but nothing happened at all 

[ahowl11]

Alright, I'll make the necessary changes to the list.

I suggest everyone take one final look at the list and post your concerns. I'll give it one more day, and if there is nothing else, I will close this thread so we can begin new discussions regarding new faction units, aor units, and of course DMB/EDU limitation.

Oh here's something that will free up plenty of room. Faction's should only have one General's unit instead of two. Any arguments against this?

[Mausolos of Caria]

Awrite, I had another look over it, I might add these things:

Macedonian phalanx should rather be named Pezhetairoi instead of Kleruchoi? At least not Kleruchoi since cleruchs are Greek colonists in the East.

Add Hippeis as a Medium/Heavy Cavalry to Greek City states.

Rename all units with the prefix ''Barbarian'', but I guess you already thought that, so we can put ''Celtic'', ''Scythian'' etc. instead.

And yes Germanic berserkers existed but if I remember correctly they are a bit overpowered in vanilla.