Discussion: The Map

[Mausolos of Caria]

@Bercor Ah that's why I've never seen you over there

That sounds promising with that new map. The current one also has the full 199/198 settlements on it, doesn't it? Apart from that I fully agree with a focus on the Mediterrenean. That's one of the things where the Rome II map disappoints me the most- the Arabian peninsula or some Northern Steppe have more cities than Syria, Greece or Italy and I won't even mention the shambles that is Sicily and the geographical mistakes.

One thing we also need to be aware of for that new map are the coastlines that have changed and lakes that have gone or didn't exist back then, I'm thinking of Macedon or the West coast of Asia Minor here (missing lakes in Switzerland might be of less importance for an ancient history mod).

[ahowl11]

Mausolos if you could, maybe compile a list of geographical edits that would need to made to best reflect the ancient world at this time? That way we would know what tasks lay ahead.

[Mausolos of Caria]

Hah, that would be quite a long list  I can do it, but it would take some time, not before the release of the Beta if you want to do it next week or so. I'll probably be in Munich on the weekend and then have an exam about the Cold War next week.

[Bercor]

Hah, that would be quite a long list  I can do it, but it would take some time, not before the release of the Beta if you want to do it next week or so. I'll probably be in Munich on the weekend and then have an exam about the Cold War next week.

No worries, it's not for the Beta. Take your time, the map isn't even done.

Also, the correct answer it's always: It was the commies fault!

[ahowl11]

Hmmm if it's going to be an extensive list, maybe just the most noticeable features? I don't want the mapper to end up reshaping the entire map!

[Mausolos of Caria]

Hehe yeah okay, I'll do so then. See for example Macedonia, even in the relatively short time between the Peloponnesian war and the age of Augustus the coast line moved by 5 kilometers and today Pella, which was only a few hundred meters behind the coast in 500 BC, is an unbelievable 20 kilometers away from the sea. I'm not sure how extensive artificial drainage was used here, but it is astonishing at any rate.

And aye, that will be the right answer 

[ahowl11]

I've been talking to Philadelphos about our map changes. Here is his response:

Regarding your changes:
Thospia has been discussed.
Emporia is certainly desireable, but I wouldn't replace Tarraco, because that was the capital of the entire region. During the empire it was replaced by Caesaraugusta. Well with two regions this area is really hard. It would be better with an additional region. Another viable choice would be making Emporia an exclave of Massilia. I'd like to try that, but I'm afraid it would interrupt the road to Narbo.

Taking out two regions in Germany seems too much. How do you fill the area?
Volubilis is marginal, but if you want it make it the capital and Tingis the port of Tingitana.
Heraclea or Amastris might be capital of Paphlagonia. Then I'd suggest that you add a small region named Helenopontus with Sinope as capital. Attention: Sinope has a single square in the Aral Sea. Without that the city won't work!

Vienna/Arausio is acceptable both. I chose Arausio because with that the Roman expansion into Gaul works better.
Bibracte is certainly desirable. If I may suggest, it should replace Alesia. How bout this:
Transalpina: Vienna
Haeduensis: Bibracte
Lugdunensis (or Biturigia): Avaricum
Like the Tarraco/Emporia area that region has a lot of compromise, but if you want to go for a 70 BC setup the above appears to be best. Earlier we do not know.

A second region in Sardinia appears as no good idea for several reasons:
1. The Carthaginians had their biggest problems in their homeland (view Mercenary War 240-238 BC).
2. I never even saw them expanding into Corsica (with land bridge), so why should they go against the Sardinians?.
3. The Nuragic fort might be represented by a fort. It shows clearly that you never played the Carthaginians in my mod, otherwise you would have reason to complain about those wicked Sardinian rebels hiding in the bushy center of the Island. If you like you can give them a fort, but that would destroy the surprise.
4. Zama is needed for road system.
In my opinion with this you're just making the usual error of people representing their home area better than all the rest (I know that one of your collaborators is from Sardinia).
A funny thing with the first RTR mod was that there were four or five regions in Cyprus. Though this may be historically exact for a previous time, it has no sense in this game.

[Bercor]

I see... Well, I still mantain that Germania is over-represented and that the main focus of Carthage should be Iberia/Sicilia/Sardinia. However, seeing as this is Philadelphos map, we could just make some small corrections, settlements names and alike, for the BETA release. When we have our own map we can make all the changes we feel like.

PS: Do we have someone from Sardinia in the team?

[Jubal]

There aren't any Sardinian hits on Exilian for the last month...

[Bercor]

There aren't any Sardinian hits on Exilian for the last month...

We can easily change that.

MOAR SARDINIAN LOVE!

[Jubal]

On which note, is it by any chance you who's responsible for the 5850% (yes, that is the correct figure) increase in visits from the Lisbon area in the last month?

I suspect Philadelphos is right about not over-doing Sardinia... hard to know how to get Carthage to focus hard enough on the sea, perhaps give them slightly cheaper cut-price biremes or some such to make naval domination a more natural starting point?

[Bercor]

On which note, is it by any chance you who's responsible for the 5850% (yes, that is the correct figure) increase in visits from the Lisbon area in the last month?

Nah...

I suspect Philadelphos is right about not over-doing Sardinia... hard to know how to get Carthage to focus hard enough on the sea, perhaps give them slightly cheaper cut-price biremes or some such to make naval domination a more natural starting point?

"Adding the second province to Sardinia is, I believe, warranted by both history and game balance. Settled early by the Phoenicians (c. 750BC), Sardinia soon boasted a group of Phoenician settlements in its south-western corner.  The Magonid generals Hasdrubal and Hamilcar reduced the native Sardinian tribes to obedience in around 500BC, and thereafter Sardinia was an important province in the Carthaginian domain. Thereafter Punic-Sardinian relations (c. 500-238BC) appear to have been largely peaceful. Sardinia is reported as having been a source of mercenaries (Diodorus Siculus 14.95.1). Constitutionally, Sardinia appears as the foreign region closest to Carthage herself, with local magistrates, including sufetes. Economically, Sardinia provided rich agricultural lands for grain production, had rich silver and lead mines, and was a key point in the trade routes across the western Mediterranean. 

The surrender of Sardinia to Rome in 238BC at a moment of acute weakness for Carthage was a great blow to Carthaginian wealth and prestige. Rome was forced to fight tough military campaigns throughout the period 238-231BC in order to subjugate Sardinia. Three triumphs were celebrated during this period. In 216-215BC the Carthaginians sent an expedition led by Hasdrubal the Bald to Sardinia, and fomented a revolt of the natives there led by the Punicised-native leader Hampiscora. The revolt was a failure – but its attempt at such an important time is an indicator of what a strategic priority Sardinia was for Carthage.

The map below reveals that Sardinia should acquire some new features – with a recognition that most of its settlements and infrastructure should be found in the south-west.
 

Carthage’s determination to defend Phoenician holdings in Sardinia and Sicily throughout the period 550-215BC underscores the strategic role these two islands play in the Carthaginian maritime empire. Both islands were integral to Carthage’s Tyrrhenian trade. While Sicily was the lynchpin with the Aegean trade, Sardinia was critical to the protection of Carthaginian trade hegemony in the valuable metals trade in Iberia".  Hannibal Barca, RTR developer

Personally, I think he makes a very compelling case.

[ahowl11]

Sent the document to him.

[Bercor]

Sent the document to him.

To whom? Jubal or Philadelphos?

[Jubal]

If it was me it ain't turned up, so I'm guessing Phil.